RIP Reaper

[Nimon.7840]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

For them what's worth is only what's optimal. There were time when a profession had 3 specs with strike dps numbers like: 34k, 35k and 39k and they just posted the 39k dps build. Because ultimately that's the build most people looked at while they ignored the other 2 builds. The funniest part is that the lower dps builds were more reliable and this very profession lost it's appeal because it's dps was deemed unreliable.

it would be great if these speedrun guild could show 2 benchmarks: 1 for optimal result and 1 for reliable results.

 

I disagree.

If they only posted most optimal builds for speed running, they wouldnt have listed scourge in it's 28k dps era and they also wouldn't have listed reaper even when it was 34k dps.

And posting suboptimal builds that do 2k less dps, why bother doing that?

And they already do post builds that are slightly different see power virtuoso (GS and focus build).

 

If you want them to do more, ask to join them and do the work yourself, I am happy that they provide that information at all, even though they don't have to o and even though I do figure out the most optimal setup myself almost all the times after a patch, at least, when it comes to Necro.

[Radina.6057]

18 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

For them what's worth is only what's optimal. There were time when a profession had 3 specs with strike dps numbers like: 34k, 35k and 39k and they just posted the 39k dps build. Because ultimately that's the build most people looked at while they ignored the other 2 builds. The funniest part is that the lower dps builds were more reliable and this very profession lost it's appeal because it's dps was deemed unreliable.

it would be great if these speedrun guild could show 2 benchmarks: 1 for optimal result and 1 for reliable results.

 

Some people do truly are resistant to just checking the site out they pretend to know about.

 

Snowcrows did list multiple benches for the same spec for ages. A prime example would be Guardian. For the longest time, there were four power guardian benchmarks on the list. DH, and Willbender, each with a build that required aegis uptime, and a build that didnt. 

 

Even when you ignore the "ancient past", the point that they only list one optimal build is still wrong. If you visit their side, you can click on the spec you want to play and find a dropdown menu in the right upper corner. There you can switch between meta, beginner, or incontinence builds. 

[Dadnir.5038]

6 hours ago, Radina.6057 said:

 

Some people do truly are resistant to just checking the site out they pretend to know about.

 

Snowcrows did list multiple benches for the same spec for ages. A prime example would be Guardian. For the longest time, there were four power guardian benchmarks on the list. DH, and Willbender, each with a build that required aegis uptime, and a build that didnt. 

 

Even when you ignore the "ancient past", the point that they only list one optimal build is still wrong. If you visit their side, you can click on the spec you want to play and find a dropdown menu in the right upper corner. There you can switch between meta, beginner, or incontinence builds. 

And some people have no clue what the word "reliable" mean. Why do you even brandish to my face builds that would never ever work reliably as a counter argument?

Edit: Unless you lot didn't understand, this is exactly because they put builds that would rely on impossibility like perma aegis for optimal result that I wrote my post.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Obtena.7952]

My favourite part is the idea that a build isn't 'legit raid worthy' unless it was listed on SC. Frankly, that's a garbage argument; whether it's on SC or not, it's raid worthy if you know how to play it properly and succeed with it. The fact is that ANYONE that is doing that with Reaper ... hats off to you because it's probably a difficult slog IMO to take such a focused spec as Reaper and do that. Certainly, no one was or is taking Reaper because it's massively team useful and desirable. 

I mean, even if Anet comes in and buffs it, it's still RIP. What does it need to be competitive as a DPS class in a PVE team? Like, 30% more DPS? Where is that going to come from? That's just not realistic. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Asum.4960]

12 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

What does it need to be competitive as a DPS class in a PVE team? Like, 30% more DPS? Where is that going to come from? That's just not realistic. 

Increasing some coefficients especially PvE only shouldn't be a big deal (so probably 6-36 months in Anet time) - but ideally some DPS increase for Power builds could be achieved by finally providing Necro with a single properly viable core Power Weapon and especially off-hand. 

While most weapons in the game these days had their power coefficients doubled or even tripled (plus Cooldown reductions, plus boon/condition/Utility additions) through powercreep since launch, I think Warhorn with Locust Swarm and Focus with Reaper's Touch to Soul Grasp may be the only, or at least some of the very few, skills that did exponentially more damage in even 2012 core balance, having gotten far worse since (especially through changes to extremely poorly scaling and un-critable life leech). 

It would also make the Spec a lot more interesting to play to not just be stuck on GS AA and Gravedigger, having nothing but stat sticks to swap to except for maybe a Ghastly Claws just before and after Shroud every now and then. 

Likewise, anything power on Necro, such as Power Harbinger, needs a heavy boost as well anyway.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Asum.4960

[stormemperor.3745]

On 3/6/2022 at 7:51 PM, Static.4258 said:

Reaper is no longer viable to play in PVE. It's already mediocre DPS was destroyed with this shroud nerf. Reaper heavily relies on shroud for it's Power DPS build/rotation and now that the nerf has gutted shroud, it's also gutted it's DPS.

Was there a reason why we needed to completely kill the Reaper class in PVE? What's the purpose of the Reaper class now?

Reaper's purpose is to check whether other people doing good dps or not. Anyone below reaper needs to do better rotation.

[Axl.8924]

On 7/30/2022 at 9:45 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

And some people have no clue what the word "reliable" mean. Why do you even brandish to my face builds that would never ever work reliably as a counter argument?

Edit: Unless you lot didn't understand, this is exactly because they put builds that would rely on impossibility like perma aegis for optimal result that I wrote my post.

 

While you can complete content the problem with this is you then have others who surpass the dps while also throwing out more buffs for support and even support classes either straight up outdpsing you or having aroudn same DPS while offering more.

 

This cannot stand. Either they nerf every class dps by 30% or they buff reaper's dps.

[Obtena.7952]

13 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Increasing some coefficients especially PvE only shouldn't be a big deal (so probably 6-36 months in Anet time) - but ideally some DPS increase for Power builds could be achieved by finally providing Necro with a single properly viable core Power Weapon and especially off-hand. 

While most weapons in the game these days had their power coefficients doubled or even tripled (plus Cooldown reductions, plus boon/condition/Utility additions) through powercreep since launch, I think Warhorn with Locust Swarm and Focus with Reaper's Touch to Soul Grasp may be the only, or at least some of the very few, skills that did exponentially more damage in even 2012 core balance, having gotten far worse since (especially through changes to extremely poorly scaling and un-critable life leech). 

It would also make the Spec a lot more interesting to play to not just be stuck on GS AA and Gravedigger, having nothing but stat sticks to swap to except for maybe a Ghastly Claws just before and after Shroud every now and then. 

Likewise, anything power on Necro, such as Power Harbinger, needs a heavy boost as well anyway.

Well, that's arguable right ... it's not a big deal to increase Reaper DPS 30%? There's obviously some reason Anet hasn't done it yet then. I'm kinda the opinion that somewhere in that reason it hasn't been done is because maybe it IS a big deal that has a big influence on the priority such a change would have in the balance team.  

Edited July 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Nimon.7840]

11 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, that's arguable right ... it's not a big deal to increase Reaper DPS 30%? There's obviously some reason Anet hasn't done it yet then. I'm kinda the opinion that somewhere in that reason it hasn't been done is because maybe it IS a big deal that has a big influence on the priority such a change would have in the balance team.  

To me it seems like they simply forgot, that with the "no more class specific stat buffs -patch" power classes lost more than just precision.

 

What did condi classes loose that patch?

- 100 precision (even though that's not that important)

- 100 condition damage 

- sun spirit

 

Power classes lost far more:

- 100 precision

- 100 power

- 100 ferocity

- frost spirit

 

And the current benchmarks reflect that very well.

Last time I looked it up was 7 power builds and 23 condi builds with more than 30k dps!

 

[Obtena.7952]

They have players yelling at them from all sides. They don't forget. It's something else. 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Via Negativa.1059]

After gearing up for the change and sitting in self 100 percent crit most of the time with dread I don't want them to revert what they have done, I want them to fix it. If the DPS is to remain mediocre then they really should up the classes survivability and lean into this aspect of the class and give us Viable tanking buffs.

What I find funny is they said they would look at feedback and do something but there has not been a peep about necro instead of more nerfs then silence. To the point they actually think the change they made to death perception is a quality of life change lol.

A melee Dps that needs to put themselves at risk for the worst DPS... They either need their priorities straightened out or they simply just don't understand their own game at this point it seems.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Via Negativa.1059

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

On 7/31/2022 at 2:22 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, that's arguable right ... it's not a big deal to increase Reaper DPS 30%? There's obviously some reason Anet hasn't done it yet then. I'm kinda the opinion that somewhere in that reason it hasn't been done is because maybe it IS a big deal that has a big influence on the priority such a change would have in the balance team.  

 

They haven't done anything to help the reaper for well over 3 years now. It has continued to slide into oblivion while they tinker with the new elite builds. The base dps for reaper is horrid at this stage and buffing it needs to become a priority so it remains viable. If you look at any of the lists for top builds you won't find them there which has been the case for far too long. Make all the excuses you want it's just flat out nonsense reapers have dropped so far with little attention to the class. Reapers are behind in every pure power build and there are no excuse for it, regardless of what you hypothesize! Buff Power Reaper!!.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Vlad Morbius.1759

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

 

They haven't done anything to help the reaper for well over 3 years now. It has continued to slide into oblivion while they tinker with the new elite builds. The base dps for reaper is horrid at this stage and buffing it needs to become a priority so it remains viable. If you look at any of the lists for top builds you won't find them there which has been the case for far too long. Make all the excuses you want it's just flat out nonsense reapers have dropped so far with little attention to the class. Reapers are behind in every pure power build and there are no excuse for it, regardless of what you hypothesize! Buff Power Reaper!!.

True. Absolutely. Does that make you believe Anet is just going to come down on Reaper with 30% more DPS across the board? I don't. As much as it might be reasonable for that to happen so it competes other DPS classes for team spots, I just don't see it happening. 

I don't think that's inline with Anet's new approach with roles and the meta shift to support. This idea about DPS getting specs team spots  is fragile. The second a game change affects your DPS ... your gone.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

True. Absolutely. Does that make you believe Anet is just going to come down on Reaper with 30% more DPS across the board? I don't. As much as it might be reasonable for that to happen so it competes other DPS classes for team spots, I just don't see it happening. 

Which is pretty much why I've stopped playing. It is the only class I've really enjoyed but it's horribly under powered and clearly the balance team couldn't care less, which frankly is shameful! I guess they'd rather push players out the door than put a little effort into helping them stay....pretty much the state of the game I'm afraid.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Vlad Morbius.1759

[Parpage.9867]

On 3/6/2022 at 5:51 PM, Static.4258 said:

Reaper is no longer viable to play in PVE. It's already mediocre DPS was destroyed with this shroud nerf. Reaper heavily relies on shroud for it's Power DPS build/rotation and now that the nerf has gutted shroud, it's also gutted it's DPS.

Was there a reason why we needed to completely kill the Reaper class in PVE? What's the purpose of the Reaper class now?

You can literally bench higher as a afk pMechanist, reaper is that bad it's just sad and people denying it are just either just clueless or hate necro (considering that i've seen people affirming that reaper is the best winterberry farmer i have little to no hope left tbh). I've seen justifying this amount of nonsense with "SeCoNd HEaLtH BaR" it's not even funny anymore. Core weapons needs a rework to offer more power variety and reaper need a rework, having a band-aid to buff a little bit the dps isn't enough anymore 

[Wuffy.9732]

The only elite I'll give a pass is Scourge. Great condi-uptick and sustain, and good crowd control. Can't complain. Reaper and Harbinger on the other hand, just keep getting treated like dirt in PVE land.

Reaper has always been getting the short hand of the stick, to the point where it's just not funny anymore. I stopped complaining cause everyone seems to think that it's a good thing and that reaper deserves it. Majority of the time, these people don't know what they're talking about and probably don't play necro/reaper as much as they like to think they do.

Harbinger was good at one point. The first beta was amazing, for once it seemed like necro was actually worth playing again. Then progressively overtime anet did the same thing, neglect necro elite specs per usual in favor of other classes. It's sad, but hey that's the reality I've just come to accept with this class. This thread does a good job at expressing the frustration: (I knew harbinger will be dumpstered)

But hey it's not all bad, necro still manages to remain in-between the spotlight somehow. I'm just hoping anet doesn't kill necro all together, especially if they continue this downward trend.

Favoritism in MMO's is just an unfortunate conundrum.

[Methuselah.4376]

On 8/10/2022 at 10:18 AM, Wuffy.9732 said:

Harbinger was good at one point. The first beta was amazing, for once it seemed like necro was actually worth playing again. Then progressively overtime anet did the same thing, neglect necro elite specs per usual in favor of other classes. It's sad, but hey that's the reality I've just come to accept with this class. This thread does a good job at expressing the frustration: (I knew harbinger will be dumpstered)

I play Harbinger almost exclusively where I do Fractal CMs, Raid DPS, and even Open World. It's actually in a good place. The first beta introduced a lazy man's harbinger, where you just Shroud autoed until shroud 2 was off CD. Ye damage was insane but it was boring. Now it actually requires some thought and management which is a good thing. The post you're referring to is criticizing Harbinger's state in the 2nd beta it was playable in, for which it was indeed a kitten show.  Most of the issues presented there have been somewhat addressed. 

[Axl.8924]

On 8/6/2022 at 6:30 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

True. Absolutely. Does that make you believe Anet is just going to come down on Reaper with 30% more DPS across the board? I don't. As much as it might be reasonable for that to happen so it competes other DPS classes for team spots, I just don't see it happening. 

I don't think that's inline with Anet's new approach with roles and the meta shift to support. This idea about DPS getting specs team spots  is fragile. The second a game change affects your DPS ... your gone.

 

If surviving too long is such a problem the could YOU KNOW!!! buff reaper outside of shroud?

Then people can shut up about second health bar because then reapers are choosing between being more tanky in shroud and using outside weapons for DPS. There are actual fixes here, unless they don't want reaper to be a DPS spec in which please hand out the huge buffs to support needed to be a tank please. If the tankiness and shroud are meant to be for tanking give us the tools needed to tank in this game, because unlike in other MMOS where you got tools to get aggro and tank, it works differently here.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Axl.8924

[Bookah pls.9352]

Aug 23 begins our babysteps march on the way to the top of the benchmarks!

Reaper
Greatsword
Fading Twilight: (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 1.3 to 1.4.
Chilling Scythe: (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 1.7 to 1.8.
Death Spiral: (PvE only) Damage multiplier per hit increased from 0.425 to 0.5.

Reaper Shroud
Life Rend: (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 0.875 to 0.9.

Shouts
"You Are All Weaklings!": (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 0.7 to 2.5.
"Nothing Can Save You!": (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 0.7 to 2.
"Suffer!": (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 0.7 to 1.5.

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Bookah pls.9352
Plain text for weirdos who don't use dark mode :)

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

1 hour ago, Bookah pls.9352 said:

Aug 23 begins our babysteps march on the way to the top of the benchmarks!

why even bother? 0.025 increase? I mean, WAT?! +0.1 is already ridiculous.

 

not sure if shouts are enough to bother with them either.

[Nephalem.8921]

20 minutes ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

why even bother? 0.025 increase? I mean, WAT?! +0.1 is already ridiculous.

 

not sure if shouts are enough to bother with them either.

To blind the hyper casuals because they see a lot of changes and dont understand numbers. And it worked if you read comments. 

Most of these changes could have been left out because they change nothing. Thats a 300dps buff for reaper right there with the gs coefficient buffs. Mirage out of all the underplayed specs gets a 25% axe ambush nerf.

Some changes are good but the overwhelming majority of them are useless fluff. Changing the coefficient of a single skill by less than 5% is just a useless change when the whole weapon needs sometimes 40%+ buffs or the entire spec lacks 15%+ behind.

[Obtena.7952]

Just another patch that sends the message that Reaper is where Anet wants it to be in terms of DPS. The more I see these kinds of changes, the more I'm convinced that "OW" is a game mode that Anet balances around. The buffs to shouts are particularly telling as well. Obviously they were buffed because they weren't being used much in PVE.

[Bookah pls.9352]

10 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

To blind the hyper casuals because they see a lot of changes and dont understand numbers. And it worked if you read comments. 

I've yet to see any positive comments regarding reapers buffs so far?

[Shadowmoon.7986]

The problem is this update is a numbers adjustment only, that why they seem so lackluster. Reaper needs a trait rewrite, it unfortunately need both defile defenses and soul eater to do competent damage.

If they want people do use focus, make it do strike damage, not life steal.  But again that would be another weapon rewrite. 

[Nephalem.8921]

3 hours ago, Bookah pls.9352 said:

I've yet to see any positive comments regarding reapers buffs so far?

The reddit thread is very positive for some reason.