Anet just killed EoD meta

[AliamRationem.5172]

Just now, Vayne.8563 said:

It makes it okay, because there are no alternatives. You have X amount of time to work on something. You have y amount of things to do in that time. There's never been a good answer to "quests" in MMOs, which is why themepark MMOs all have so many generic quests.  There'll be longer more interested quest lines that lead to meta bosses and there will be shorter more repetitive questlines. That's the industry When I played FFXIV (admittedly not for a very long time) every quest I did and some of the fates were just copy and paste from pretty much every MMO I've ever played. Calling it lazy IS lazy.  Because lazy implies people being lethargic, not caring, not wanting to do more. We don't know that it's lazy. What we do know is that making dozens and dozens and dozens of unique individual quests during making the rest of an expansion would be prohibitively expensive. That's why things are the way they are.  You may not like it, but it's reality.

Yeah, I'm the one who needs a lesson in reality. 🙄 Maybe your sympathy for the developers will help them sell more copies of this expansion.

[AliamRationem.5172]

8 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Yes, Dragon Stand has different events in each lane. One of them is gathering a bunch of stuff and handing it in. Another one is gathering a bunch of stuff and handing it in. And another one is gathering a bunch of stuff and handing it in.  Oh and there are escorts mixed in there.  Sure there's an event to draw beetles into a thing you stamp on.  But the bulk of the questions are escort, defense or collections, even in Dragon Stand. 

You really want to believe that they've hit gold with EoD, don't you?  You'll excuse anything.  Okay, so basically all events are a boring waste of time so who cares if they copy/paste.  Is that seriously your argument?  kitten.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

I have a full time job. I play to relax. This meta is not relaxing, it is a second job. Which I neither need nor want. Maybe when I am on holidays and have some spare time. But not when I am tired by the daily grind.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

The overall solution is simple, separate it into "primary" and "secondary" meta events, like Drizzlewood. Everything up to the big fight should be split into its own meta and reward system, and the two meta events should alternate back to back on the same map without overlapping.

 

This way players can play either casual or hardcore without stepping on anyone's toes.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[Vayne.8563]

41 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Yeah, I'm the one who needs a lesson in reality. 🙄 Maybe your sympathy for the developers will help them sell more copies of this expansion.

This really has nothing to do with sympathy for the devs. This has to do with reality. That is if every game has the same copy past events throughout the entire game, maybe there's a reason for it.  A single player game will likely have better quests, each quest scripted, but expansion content for existing games. I'm simply arguing the word, not whether the result is ideal.

Lazy has a specific definition. Since you don't know how much time people had to create this content and you don't know how backed up they were on other things, or how hard they worked, lazy is the wrong word, pure and simple. You can defend it but you'd be wrong. It's a lazy attack.  That's what it is.  Because more than likely if events are copied and pasted the reason is budget not laziness.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

This really has nothing to do with sympathy for the devs. This has to do with reality. That is if every game has the same copy past events throughout the entire game, maybe there's a reason for it.  A single player game will likely have better quests, each quest scripted, but expansion content for existing games. I'm simply arguing the word, not whether the result is ideal.

Lazy has a specific definition. Since you don't know how much time people had to create this content and you don't know how backed up they were on other things, or how hard they worked, lazy is the wrong word, pure and simple. You can defend it but you'd be wrong. It's a lazy attack.  That's what it is.  Because more than likely if events are copied and pasted the reason is budget not laziness.

I apologize for disparaging the hard work of the developers.  Now can we stop arguing semantics and get back to discussing the issues?

[Vayne.8563]

1 minute ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I apologize for disparaging the hard work of the developers.  Now can we stop arguing semantics and get back to discussing the issues?

I'm sorry but if people want to communicate, they can do so using words that actually mean what they intend. I don't know if the developers worked hard or not.  Maybe they are lazy, sitting around in a room, eating donuts, drinking coffee and not caring at all about what comes out in the end...but I suspect that's not the case.

Words have power. You start using words like lazy and some people will get the wrong idea.  Copy pasta events exist in all games because the number of events and quests are simply too numerous to have every event be unique and original. They serve a purpose in the same way random encounters in D&D serve a purpose. When I DMed I had long complex stories, and no one ever accused me of being lazy, but many of my "chance encounters" where the same. They were there to provide material and loot for people, not be exciting unique events.

 

In fact, if you're in the middle of a major quest line what you don't want is exciting and unique events.

I believe that the ramp up to Dragons End is too long and that cutting it in half would do a world of good for the event, because an hour and half is more doable than two hours at least for me.  But I still won't use the wrong word to complain if I can help it, and yeah, I'll call it out every time, because I prefer not to malign people of things they may not be guilty of, online and in real life.

 

It's not just the devs. I'd protect anyone in the same situation. Even people I neither like or agree with.

[Zauriel Mooncat.4968]

This one event really has split the community in half and made a toxic enviroment... I dont really care about the loot or anything else of this event, because, if it makes the community go against itself and create such a toxic environent... Is not a good event because of that alone. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Zauriel Mooncat.4968

[Almaden.6782]

20 minutes ago, Zauriel Mooncat.4968 said:

This one event really has split the community in half and made a toxic enviroment... I dont really care about the loot or anything else of this event, because, if it makes the community go against itself and create such a toxic environent... Is not a good event because of that alone. 

The meta and the strike mission both.

[Hume.2876]

You can't please everyone.  Hard open world content is not going to make everyone happy. It's designed to make the people that like MMOs happy though. It absolutely works for some people. Go with a good guild - Hardstruck does it all the time for example.

 

Should we just have no challenging open world content? Or no challenging content at all? Should grind replace all challenge in GW2? 

[battledrone.8315]

6 minutes ago, Hume.2876 said:

You can't please everyone.  Hard open world content is not going to make everyone happy. It's designed to make the people that like MMOs happy though. It absolutely works for some people. Go with a good guild - Hardstruck does it all the time for example.

 

Should we just have no challenging open world content? Or no challenging content at all? Should grind replace all challenge in GW2? 

it was explicitly sold as a casual, no grind game. and MMOs needs as many players, as they can get. that is the exact opposite, as sending them away with a bad taste in their mouths.

you want challenge, go raiding

[Labjax.2465]

1 hour ago, Hume.2876 said:

You can't please everyone.  Hard open world content is not going to make everyone happy. It's designed to make the people that like MMOs happy though. It absolutely works for some people. Go with a good guild - Hardstruck does it all the time for example.

 

Should we just have no challenging open world content? Or no challenging content at all? Should grind replace all challenge in GW2? 

Well since you're asking such a ridiculous question making it all one or the other, then yes, open world content should be faceroll easy. If you have to pick one or the other, one of them is going to get large numbers of people to show up. The other will get a tiny percentage of MMO players to show up. Grind is already the majority of all MMOs. Nothing new there.

Thing is, after some time, most people who were at all interested in a boss fight as a fight are gonna just start seeing it as another source of loot for the grind. You can tell by how metas that do well long after release primarily do well because they are good for farming.

You can't both make a high time/effort investment fight and also make a fight that tons of people want to repeat over and over for loot. The two are at odds. That's why linear single player games tend to have some of the best fights in video games, because it doesn't matter much if they're a big deal or they take a while. You only need to get through them once. Raids are kind of inbetween. Progression raids are usually built so they become easier over time as you get gear from beating them and the treadmill is also often designed so as new ones come out, the older ones become easier because of increase in level cap and so on. So even raids can more lean on high time/effort investment, since there's a concrete way in which they become easier for your team as you progress.

Open world fights that are supposed to have longevity don't have that luxury, even more so because GW2 is not a gear treadmill or increase level cap game, so there isn't a whole lot of power increase to make things easier over time. People more have to rely on Anet caving and nerfing things.

[battledrone.8315]

didnt they just remake the marionette fight in OW? or is it instanced?

[Vayne.8563]

48 minutes ago, battledrone.8315 said:

didnt they just remake the marionette fight in OW? or is it instanced?

It's  instanced, with a higher player cap. 

[battledrone.8315]

5 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It's  instanced, with a higher player cap. 

okay, but anet clearly listened to the requests from a small player segment. and, AFAIK its not very popular, because it isnt rewarding enough. they obviously dont want the challenge, theyre only after the rewards. 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

11 minutes ago, battledrone.8315 said:

okay, but anet clearly listened to the requests from a small player segment. and, AFAIK its not very popular, because it isnt rewarding enough. they obviously dont want the challenge, theyre only after the rewards. 

 

I don't think it's that so much as the design has some pretty major flaws.  First, each of the five lanes has to wait for the lanes preceding it while fighting an endless stream of the same mobs.  

When the split comes it's easy for just 1 or 2 players to fail.  And when that happens it extends the time for an already lengthy event (again due to the wait in line design).

This results in the total failure condition being a rather large waste of time for no reward and because the split is a roll of the dice players don't feel like they have much control of the outcome.

It's just poorly designed.  It could be fun otherwise.

[AgentMoore.9453]

11 hours ago, Hume.2876 said:

Go with a good guild - Hardstruck does it all the time for example.

This probably isn't the best example to use, given that this guild was just outed for using underhanded tactics to try and clear out DE meta maps for their own personal use (this was addressed/resolved by the guild owner). If anything, stuff like that is just another reason the current meta should have been instanced with a pug-tuned version for the open world. Apart from that, look at events like Triple Trouble and tell me if you see droves of people doing them outside of the runs put together by DCAP and other specialized groups? Highly-organized content with a long completion time and a narrow success rate does have a place in GW2 - it just ain't open world.

Knowing where to put these things is crucial to their success across multiple demographics. You can't please everyone, but you can certainly avoid actively polarizing them.

2 hours ago, battledrone.8315 said:

AFAIK its not very popular, because it isnt rewarding enough.

That's part of it, but it has other issues. For one, it's not very visible to the average player. You have to know exactly when and where it's happening and go to a specific place to gain access to the event. If they bumped the rewards (maybe by bringing back some of the LS1 loot like tri-key pieces? Watchwork infusion?) and plunked the Marionette into the world boss portal device (or some new device specifically for these instanced battles), people would most likely add it to their boss rotation.

So long as it's easy to find and get to with moderately good rewards, it'll fall in line with other bosses that get regular play.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

On 3/16/2022 at 11:24 PM, Vayne.8563 said:

I've completed it four times, which means I got my egg and I'm still doing it. You not liking it doesn't make it bad design. The people running the group I was with DO like it, or at least a lot of them do. I see them same faces at many of the attempts, so they all have their egg and keep on doing it and that was before the new improved reward.  You not liking something doesn't make the design poor. 

Compare it to other maps with similarly long metas.

HoT maps in general (That's all 4 maps) have a participation meter and a progression meter.  Depending on how far along both are, players get rewards proportional to how far the meta advances and how much they participated in helping it get there.

Silverwastes gives you something to do to build up to taking on the Vinewrath and rewards staying around for multiple cycles.

Drizzlewood Coast gives rewards per player pending on how  far the south meta is along.

Dragon's End doesn't really give you participation rewards worth the time and effort like every of the aforementioned maps do.  It's only just gotten something HoT has had for a long time  with the daily choice chest at the end.

[omgdracula.6345]

Oof thinking an hour is a huge time investment. Y'all really want a ton of rewards for little time and effort don't you?

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, omgdracula.6345 said:

Oof thinking an hour is a huge time investment. Y'all really want a ton of rewards for little time and effort don't you?

A lot of players who play this game pursue long term rewards over lots of small increments of time. It's not that they want things handed to them, but that they have smaller increments to play in. They'll steadily chip away at a skyscale quest or pursuing a legendary even, but not in in sittings that last several hours at a time.

The 1 1/2 to 2 hour DE meta does pose a challenge to me, a middle life dad. In the evening, it starts at 6pm, 8pm, and 10pm in the Eastern US, where I am. My kids are usually in bed around 9, which means if I want to see them off to bed and do some gaming, I'm shooting for the 10pm start. Going past 11pm is not great for me getting enough sleep for a 7am waking time to go to work the next day. That means I can probably realistically attempt this meta once a week.

Now, I'm not saying the game should adjust to my schedule. But ArenaNet has already figured this out in several other metas. There are ways to award players based on how long they've been around, and players who drop in later can still get in on the fun (and loot) but with smaller rewards. Or players who help advance the meta in the early stages but have to drop out before the end can also get some decent rewards along the way.

Why did they drop what has been a successful design in earlier metas?

Edited March 18, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[koxsos.6258]

I got the turtle by buckling down on a dedicated discord with map full of people wanting said turtle pre-patch, willing to step outside their comfort zone, min max subgroups and get it done.

 

Now when I revisit the map.

I see in chat: can anyone command?

I try and go for it, since after several failed attempts I would like to think that doubling your dps helps in a dps race. I ask people to bring out the best their classes have to offer to help with quickness, alac, might, bring banners and spirits, spare cc and split into buff subgroups.

 

Nope. Barely few can be bothered to do beyond bare minimum, cause they no longer care in the slightest on a non premade open map, let alone stop dps on demand.

Why would they not like to improve the odds of success for everyone involved? Cause "it's just a game".

And it is, it always was. It was a matter of life and death to some of them just a week ago, but now they finally get to relax while having fun with the side effect of sabotaging the rest of the map involved, again and again. Except now they have the turtle so it's ok.

I am basically waiting for a nerf till I bother going there again. I got enough masteries to finish turtle but not enough drive to bother beyond clicking daily login reward tbh.

[battledrone.8315]

6 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I don't think it's that so much as the design has some pretty major flaws.  First, each of the five lanes has to wait for the lanes preceding it while fighting an endless stream of the same mobs.  

When the split comes it's easy for just 1 or 2 players to fail.  And when that happens it extends the time for an already lengthy event (again due to the wait in line design).

This results in the total failure condition being a rather large waste of time for no reward and because the split is a roll of the dice players don't feel like they have much control of the outcome.

It's just poorly designed.  It could be fun otherwise.

but this is exactly what they wanted...hard content, that can fail. or rather, they SAID they wanted.

now anet has wasted those resources on another dead project.

not buying the "poorly designed" excuse, its only about the rewards

[LART.3748]

I am very disappointed in ANET's decision to nerf this event, before in LFG you find lot of partys doing the meta so active very often , now it is totally dead, I love difficult games, the difficulty makes the game something great and worth appreciating, I played 16 simultaneous metas of the Dragon's End  event until I finally got the turtle, it seemed epic to me, now anyone can have it super easy... another thing I wanted to say is that I also think the hero points of the game should be challenges against very rude and hard bosses, they are too easy as well as domain masteries, just commune and that's it????.

[kettering.6823]

2 hours ago, omgdracula.6345 said:

Oof thinking an hour is a huge time investment. Y'all really want a ton of rewards for little time and effort don't you?

The meta from start to finish is 2 hours. A lot of people have jobs, families, or hell, even other hobbies that they want to dedicate time to. Not everyone can, or wants to, dedicate hours and hours to one game, and certainly not just one event. Your argument might hold water if this was a different game, but GW2 has been explicitly marketed as a casual game; a lot of the playerbase simply does not have the time or desire to play all day. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

45 minutes ago, battledrone.8315 said:

but this is exactly what they wanted...hard content, that can fail. or rather, they SAID they wanted.

now anet has wasted those resources on another dead project.

not buying the "poorly designed" excuse, its only about the rewards

I don't care what you buy.  If they changed the design so that you didn't have to sit there fighting the same mobs for 20 minutes while you wait for 1 or 2 players to ruin it for everyone else more people would participate.  The part where you split and do the mechanics is fun and would be rewarding if they changed it so that you don't have to wait around.

Same problem with DE.  Fun fight.  Epic, really.  But it has a high chance of failure and what really kills it is the hour long copy/paste event boredom preceding it.  If we could just run at the boss and it didn't fail 90% of the time people would be all over it.