Virtuoso fills a niche that Mesmer was lacking

[Dadnir.5038]

19 hours ago, Oak.2047 said:

Mesmer sucked in Fractals (and Dungeons for that matter) ever since FB got access to quickness

Let me just disagree with that statement. Mesmer might not have been part of the "meta" but it didn't "suck" in fractal and dungeon (Also, what you need to complete dungeon is often different from what you need to complete fractal).

[Mell.4873]

2 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I am very well aware of my tone this isn't a direct attack, and you are completely reading my posts wrong which then again I am not surprised.

Secondly I dont understand your reply, is it a statement or a question. My post is on how PvErs get their way in the history of the game's lifetime. Complain about Dragon's End meta boon you don't even need to do it for the tortoise mount anymore. Compared to PvPers complaining about stale meta, bots, and wintrade. Or how about WvW with alpine map and EBG since the game release, asking for more consistent frequent schedule for balance. Nothing we asked for were not already promised by the ANET devs. 

Didn't I make this exact same point, hence why gw2 is predominantly a PvE game. 

I don't care much for PVP, except maybe the odd WvW skirmish. If you couldnt complete your dailies with sPvP and get alot of gold I probably wouldn't do it. I think this is view of most of the player base, I mean how many people have silver badges. 

Last time a checked the top 250 player included some in gold which is bit embarrassing. I think I'm like 400th or something. 

[Mell.4873]

6 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Let me just disagree with that statement. Mesmer might not have been part of the "meta" but it didn't "suck" in fractal and dungeon (Also, what you need to complete dungeon is often different from what you need to complete fractal).

Exactly, same with Virtuoso in sPvP. You might not win a tournament but you can definitely get high gold with it. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Play Core, Chrono, Mirage, and recently Virtuoso. So I don't mind a mirror match.

[Oak.2047]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Let me just disagree with that statement. Mesmer might not have been part of the "meta" but it didn't "suck" in fractal and dungeon (Also, what you need to complete dungeon is often different from what you need to complete fractal).

I give you that. My original post was hyperbolic in that regard.

But i stand by the fact that it just felt awful. You have to carefully set up certain conditions to be able to keep up with other classes even slightly, something that is just not possible in pugs or even in premade groups without voice.

 

[Ombras.2853]

I do agree about several points. But if you want to imply that Mesmer doesn’t already have a high Tier WvW spec (Minstrel Chrono), then everything else you said it’s null.

 

Mesmer has issues in PvP, for sure (high level PvP, cuz in everything below that Mesmer does very well) but this endless crying is the same kitten as devs not listening at feedback (another truth).

[Tseison.4659]

4 hours ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

I wanna see a Salt Mode Mirage vs a Mell Virtuoso in AB or WvW map. 

Omg I do too; someone schedule this fight 😌

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Exactly, same with Virtuoso in sPvP. You might not win a tournament but you can definitely get high gold with it. 

I said this a ton of times but again: helseth dropped to gold playing Virt. 

[Sebrent.3625]

The disparity in effectiveness of the Mesmer in top tier vs tiers below is part of what makes it challenging to balance. I believe that is at the core of the issue.

I think the classes we see more [consistently] often in the meta are the classes whose concepts are easier to balance for the different tiers of play.

I think the solution is to figure out what aspects of the class make it this way and see if they can be addressed. Could also be aspects of other classes that do this at the highest levels. One thing in that realm that comes to mind is the instant, no-seen-animation skills that make our more active defenses more difficult to leverage. I generally believe that is one of the things that make thieves challenging for Mesmers as they have good access to this, and good thieves are monsters in my opinion (for mesmers).

Edited March 25, 2022 by Sebrent.3625

[Lethion.8745]

If I wanted to put my brain away and push only 2 buttons, I would play Necromancer not Mesmer. 

[Urphen.2857]

4 hours ago, Oak.2047 said:

 

No, but at the same time i do not think that everything is as doomed as i get the feeling some people are preaching here.

Hey, at least we're not Eles.

It added to it the class as a whole. Did other Classes get more? Yes. But i think alot of the despair comes from a place where Mesmer was the non plus ultra in almost every game mode for a bit in HoT, so it could only go downhill from there anyways, and now people overreact. Other classes struggled with the same that mesmer struggles with now. Having a build that is viable in every game mode, was just unusual for most classes, except a few select ones. 

Can you give constructive criticism? Yes. Should be be a toxic kittenhole that constantly preaches how the class got nerfed with virtuoso, how the game is dead and broken and it won't ever get fixed until Mesmer has a meta spec in every game mode? No.

 And at the same time it isn't that perfect like the other side preaches here (most of the time with lies that contradict themselves at the end)

How long is it now that we was the non plus ultra? The last thing we were good at was Raid dps, what have they done? Nerfed us.

I agree it is or was unusual but exact for that new Specs are good, to fill the Builds for different game modes we where lacking but we don't get them so people don't overreact I can totally understand why so much are disappointed.

Constructive criticism was given and was buried by people praising the spec while don't even understanding the basics of mesmer + it got ignored by anet.

Game isn't dead, virtu is half a nerf half a buff depending which game mode you play the most, people should understand that's it isn't always about open world.

[Nezekan.2671]

Alac Mirage is good in T4s, especially in last 3 fractals that has long bosses and there is ramp up time. It is capable of 1000 defiance damage and can provide alacrity in full dps gear. It actually rivals alac ren due to this very fact, it does not need any concentration gear. Alac ren is still better at some fights, mainly those that do not have ample ramp up time. However Alac Mirage is very relevant.

So no, Virtuoso does not fill any niches. Mesmer needed to be better in PVP and WVW and Virtuoso is WORSE than core mesmer in these modes. This niche remains unfilled for mesmer.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[psi.9304]

My problem with Mesmer is that in all  the spec everyone can do what we can do but better. If they could balance it were we can be able to provide the same amount of whatever, people would be less hurt by Guild Wars 2 balancing team.

[HowlKamui.5120]

17 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

What the kitten ru talking about, GW2 pride itself on WvW and advertise the GAME BASED on WvW. The WHOLE MARKET of GW2 was WvW not open world. That was just them saying that there is an "interactive" open world. Dungeons were dead before it even started.

Chrono and Mirage are fcking excellent in DPS and notice I didnt mention fractals? You really need to READ before making nonsense. Mesmers havent been meta in Fractals for YEARS and Virtuoso isnt going to magically change that.

God kitten people can't seem to read these days.

Then again nothing to expect from a person that literally has 2 posts in their whole lifetime and decided to go into a Mesmer thread as their first.

If gw2 is all about wvw, why hasnt it been updated in like a gazillion years?

[Levetty.1279]

On 3/24/2022 at 4:01 PM, Oak.2047 said:

Raid DPS build.

What are you talking about? That is exactly what it got, that is all that Virtuoso can do.

It has a lower opening burst then some support specs.

If they wanted a DPS Mesmer with decent opening burst they could have just reverted all the nerfs to Chorno that they did to base the build around that stupid slow increases crit chance trait.

On 3/24/2022 at 4:01 PM, Oak.2047 said:

and why do you take a Chrono if you can just take a Firebrand who does more Damage AND has more utility.

And why Take a Virtuoso over any of the specs who can do DPS and bring utility/support? Virtuoso can't even do much to help with breakbars.

 

To answer your question

PvP players hate it because its bad at PvP by design.

WvW players hate it because its bad at WvW by design.

PvE players hate it because it has no support and no utility so why bother taking it over other classes? Why can't it be built for DPS, support/utility or a mix of both like 99% of non Mesmer specs can? Its also the glassiest Mesmer has ever been in open world.

People who though that Anet would listen to feedback hate it because Anet ignored all the feedback and the only major change they have done to the class is gut the Power damage of a selfish power damage spec and keep buffing bleed traits for some reason.

People who wanted a good F4 skill hate it because the new F4 is the worst skill that has ever been in this game. As somebody who mostly PvEs I wouldn't even mind them replacing Distortion for something more damaged focused but this skill neither has defense nor damage.

Mesmer players hate it because its a dull boring spec that ripped out a core mechanic and replaced it with nothing, none of its traits do anything interesting, has an elite skill so kitten that even PvE mobs just walk out of its wet noodle damage, has no synergy with core Mesmer traits some of which don't even work properly with the spec and ultimately feels like Mesmer 0.5.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Levetty.1279

[Nephalem.8921]

20 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I think its quite hilarious that people think Chrono and Mirage are not considered "up-front DPS" specs. The reason why it doesn't seem like that is because they can be used multiple ways and built multiple ways with multi uses whereas Virtuoso is literally only 1.

As far as PvE mains go, WvW and PvP was the base foundation for your PvE enjoyment. Need I remind you GW2 combat platform was based off of competitive modes not PvE, in fact when the game released PvE was so horrendous that zones were empty dungeons were non-existent. It is harder to balance in competitive modes then it does in PvE sorry to burst your PvE bubbles but it aint hard to balance in PvE at all.

Being a glass cannon isnt a "niche" it doesnt fill any role that other classes cant fill because at the end of the day, meta classes can do what a couple thousand dps less and provide extreme utility support to the party. I don't understand why people think DPS is an issue when it comes to raid encounters, strike missions, or the famous golem. 

What Mesmer was lacking is the nerfs we have been dealt with over the years, other jobs doing our job much better and efficient, build diversity for competitive play, dps is most certainly not one of them.

You cant build mirage or chrono for up front dps. you just cant. as a result mesmer was not played in fractals. very niche in open world.

Please do it. show me a build that does this. You sound like a pvp only player which is fine but dont neglect issues outside of pvp. it was great at dealing with massive hp enemies and long encounters and horrible in short fights or constant target swaps. Power chrono has a longer rampup time than cfb and specter. Those are condi builds.

Its not even a lot easier to play than chrono. chrono added cs which just doubled the opening skills. Dungeons did exist from launch and were also run until hot release and reward nerf. You are right dps during a 1min long training golem was not the issue. You ran into problems when you lowered the fight duration to 10sec or below and didnt have access to perma slow which for some reason is still a requirement for chrono.

Of course power dps with burst is a role it was lacking. Mesmer might have been over nerfed in pvp but this doesnt change the fact that mesmer was borderline useless in fractals and at dealing with masses of mobs. Is virtuoso even unfixable in pvp? most complaints are about everything being projectiles. nothing an unblockable property for a short time couldnt fix.

I read so many just wrong things about endgame pve here... It has a ton of group support. decent cc, very good cc if you take moa. aoe stab, reflect, best pull in the game.

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Nephalem.8921

[Sebrent.3625]

The ramp us is something that I do find aggravating. The mesmer has to ramp up to match the DPS of those it's competing with. So we have an extra requirement (the ramp up), but do we get anything extra in return for the extra we're having to deal with putting in?

 

Those are the sorts of things that I do see when comparing across classes that annoy me.

It's like when I use 3+ skills/dodges to get 3 clones out to shatter and then my brother on his necromancer merely goes into shroud and pushes a single button and does twice as much damage as the shatter when we're both in full zerk.

 

To put it simple. If build/spec X has to just to A to get their full dps/support/etc., that is fine.

But if build/spec Y has to do B, C, and D to get their full dps, then we should see something like the following:

* Doing B+C+D yields higher overall dps/support/etc. than just doing A

* Doing B, C, or D alone yields less overall dps/support/etc. than just doing A

* Doing only two of B,C,D yields overall dps/support/etc. somewhere around just doing A

 

In short:

Reward those who put in more work with better results.

Have builds for those that don't want to put in more work so that they don't get excluded from gameplay.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Sebrent.3625

[Nephalem.8921]

1 hour ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Alac Mirage is good in T4s, especially in last 3 fractals that has long bosses and there is ramp up time. It is capable of 1000 defiance damage and can provide alacrity in full dps gear. It actually rivals alac ren due to this very fact, it does not need any concentration gear. Alac ren is still better at some fights, mainly those that do not have ample ramp up time. However Alac Mirage is very relevant.

So no, Virtuoso does not fill any niches. Mesmer needed to be better in PVP and WVW and Virtuoso is WORSE than core mesmer in these modes. This niche remains unfilled for mesmer.

Alac mirage is garbage in most fractals. especially 99+98. its decent in 100. staff mirage is useless on adds and has extremely slow ramp up. any experienced cm fractal group would kick you. 

Mesmer design was the problem in some pve areas. virtuoso fixed those. mesmer design is not a problem in spvp. mirage and chrono were very strong there once. chrono was only played in fractals because it was the only option. if mesmer is not played in spvp it needs buffs because it was very strong and even considered broken for a long time.

the niche it misses now is anything wvw zerg related. its not alone in that area. could buffs to support chrono fix that?

[Nezekan.2671]

16 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Alac mirage is garbage in most fractals. especially 99+98. its decent in 100. staff mirage is useless on adds and has extremely slow ramp up. any experienced cm fractal group would kick you. 

Mesmer design was the problem in some pve areas. virtuoso fixed those. mesmer design is not a problem in spvp. mirage and chrono were very strong there once. chrono was only played in fractals because it was the only option. if mesmer is not played in spvp it needs buffs because it was very strong and even considered broken for a long time.

the niche it misses now is anything wvw zerg related. its not alone in that area. could buffs to support chrono fix that?

I do T4s every day with it (not CM). If you go by CM standards, exactly 5 specs are meta. 4 if you are picky. SO that does not count. Besides, with CMs not dropping mystic coins, they have lost alot of value. Doing EoD strikes + T4 instead of CM + T4 is simply more valuable now, and much easier if you just want gold. Fractals are not alt friendly due to agony infusions not being account bound

And Alac mirage is actually god tier in 100, it's not "decent". Confusion damage rocks due to apm of the boss and you basically do everything Alac ren does but better in that boss. Alacrity mirage is always slept on by most people and it's their loss. In very single long fight where there is one boss, it will always outdamage alacren. Sure, the way to the boss might be bad for mirage, but adds die quickly anyway. How many times did you wipe at the last boss compared to adds? Which is why Alac mirage is good at Siax.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[Dadnir.5038]

4 hours ago, Oak.2047 said:

I give you that. My original post was hyperbolic in that regard.

But i stand by the fact that it just felt awful. You have to carefully set up certain conditions to be able to keep up with other classes even slightly, something that is just not possible in pugs or even in premade groups without voice.

You shouldn't have talked about dungeons. In dungeon, a temporal curtain can be the best friend of your team, a few second of invisibility can smooth a lot of things, reflect can just destroy some bosses, portal can make the day (how many people can't pass those annoying puzzle in cof?)... etc.

It's an issue that people think that dps is everything nowadays and that the team should be gears for optimal dps. A well played non-meta build can often perform better than a poorly played meta build.

[Nephalem.8921]

5 minutes ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

I do T4s every day with it (not CM). If you go by CM standards, exactly 5 specs are meta. 4 if you are picky. SO that does not count. Besides, with CMs not dropping mystic coins, they have lost alot of value. Doing EoD strikes + T4 instead of CM + T4 is simply more valuable now, and much easier if you just want gold.

And Alac mirage is actually god tier in 100, it's not "decent". Confusion damage rocks due to apm of the boss and you basically do everything Alac ren does but better in that boss. Alacrity mirage is always slept on by most people and it's their loss.

its slept on because its bad. a well played cren still outdamages it in 100 but its decent there if you swap to something else after it. you underestimate players who can press buttons. i'll explain how good players do that fight:

boss dashes to side, you cc. boss gets burned to phase threshold or close to it while stunned. no confusion proccs because stunned bosses dont attack. your god tier spec has an inverse scaling with skill of your teammates. the same problem chrono has. the lower and slower group dps and cc the better you look. and what are you doing in short phases or vs trash as alac mirage? basically useless for short burst which is 90% of fractals. 

a lot more specs are really good currently. Slb, dh, wb, cfb, hb, holo, specter etc. 

every class has good specs for fractals now. if you just want gold you would do 96 or 42 farm which beats even t4 dailies. staff mirage is bad in both of them btw unlike virtuoso.

[Nezekan.2671]

9 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

its slept on because its bad. a well played cren still outdamages it in 100 but its decent there if you swap to something else after it. you underestimate players who can press buttons. i'll explain how good players do that fight:

boss dashes to side, you cc. boss gets burned to phase threshold or close to it while stunned. no confusion proccs because stunned bosses dont attack. your god tier spec has an inverse scaling with skill of your teammates. the same problem chrono has. the lower and slower group dps and cc the better you look. and what are you doing in short phases or vs trash as alac mirage? basically useless for short burst which is 90% of fractals. 

a lot more specs are really good currently. Slb, dh, wb, cfb, hb, holo, specter etc. 

every class has good specs for fractals now. if you just want gold you would do 96 or 42 farm which beats even t4 dailies. staff mirage is bad in both of them btw unlike virtuoso.

Ah yes. Everyone plays like that in pugs. I would boldly say 1% or less of whole revenants actually play good enough to be better than Alac mirage, because it definitely needs that skill to be even a match to toolkit of alac mirage. Because of you look at raid bosses, Alac mirage outdamages Alac ren on pretty much all bosses except a few that are really bad for condi as a whole. Because mirage has better toolkit that doesn't rely too much on execution and it's much safer by staying 60% of it's rotation in evade state and providing 25 might in 3 seconds and keeping it at 25. There is basically no down time.

Spectre would suffer the same way as Mirage and it's also only good on certain bosses. If you have a team, then we are talking about something entirely. Looking at OP's post, I doubt they even do CMs. They just think Virtuoso is "good". CM fractals are probably the most dead end game content in the game, and I don't even consider dungeons "end game", as they can be accessed while leveling up. Virtuoso provides too little for mesmer class to be relevant, and given how alt unfriendly fractals are due to agony infusions, almost everyone has a "fractal character" among those who actually do high level fractals. You can always see them parked at southern Lion's Arch.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[Nephalem.8921]

3 minutes ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Ah yes. Everyone plays like that in pugs. I would boldly say 1% or less of whole revenants actually play good enough to be better than Alac mirage, because it definitely needs that skill to be even a match to toolkit of alac mirage. Because of you look at raid bosses, Alac mirage outdamages Alac ren on pretty much all bosses except a few that are really bad for condi as a whole. Because mirage has better toolkit that doesn't rely too much on execution and it's much safer by staying 60% of it's rotation in evade state and providing 25 might in 3 seconds and keeping it at 25. There is basically no down time.

Spectre would suffer the same way as Mirage and it's also only good on certain bosses. If you have a team, then we are talking about something entirely. Looking at OP's post, I doubt they even do CMs. They just think Virtuoso is "good". CM fractals are probably the most dead end game content in the game, and I don't even consider dungeons "end game", as they can be accessed while leveling up. Virtuoso provides too little for mesmer class to be relevant, and given how alt unfriendly fractals are due to agony infusions, almost everyone has a "fractal character" among those who actually do high level fractals. You can always see them parked at southern Lion's Arch.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skale_Venom

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spider_Venom

look at these odd skills. almost like they allow specter to burst higher than most power builds. i didnt mean alac specter, thats garbage in fractals. dps specter is extremely strong and you can just swap to pDD for trash. you dont even have a kp.me entry so i doubt that you have any idea of proper fractal runs or strategies.

Raids are completely different. also2 RR rens are still better than staff on a few encounters. staff mirage is braindead while ren isnt.

would say spvp is about as dead as cm fractals. open world is anets main focus and virtuoso is very good there aswell.

[Puck.3697]

13 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Another day and another mesmer forum thread that goes round and round in circles. Why even post here if you have nothing positive to say. I don't go and posts where people complain only to try and tell them they are wrong. 

Just let people play Virtuoso, it isn't going to change drastically any more. If people can find a niche for it let them. If you don't like Virtuoso wait for the next expansion in 2 years.

I'm afraid the way to push change is to be inevitably persisted and loud. It got elementalist heard, catalyst buffs confirmed. 

We just gotta get louder. 3 posts a hour berating the current state of Mesmers each. 

No one wants drastic changes. What people want is rebalancing in a fashion which reduces how counterable it is in spvp. 

It has the groundwork there, if they'd lift the kitten roadblocks they initially put in place absolutely stifling the build. 

I.E

-  shatters move with target if your target moved the direction of projectile needs to. 

- F3 needs to consume 0 blades. And the cast time needs removing + animation sped up. 

- more access to Condi cleanse.  This doesn't even need to be virtuoso specific adding it to core mesmer would be enough. 

- psionic utilities need looking at, swap psychotic force to stab and protection from fury and might 

- Dagger 3 needs abit of a rework. It doesn't rly favour that well even in PvE. 

- dagger needs higher damage in spvp enviroments. 

- thousand cuts needs to fire all blades at the same time. Portal of waves of blades is incredibly unusable against moving targets. 

- bladeturn reqium needs to be the distortion and blade renewal needs to be the block.

- F1 and F2 need abit more damage. 

It's fine for counterplay to exist however currently virtuoso is too counterable. 

[Nezekan.2671]

2 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skale_Venom

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spider_Venom

look at these odd skills. almost like they allow specter to burst higher than most power builds. i didnt mean alac specter, thats garbage in fractals. dps specter is extremely strong and you can just swap to pDD for trash. you dont even have a kp.me entry so i doubt that you have any idea of proper fractal runs or strategies.

Raids are completely different. also2 RR rens are still better than staff on a few encounters. staff mirage is braindead while ren isnt.

would say spvp is about as dead as cm fractals. open world is anets main focus and virtuoso is very good there aswell.

Pvp is pretty alive when there is a season, but dead when there isn't. The rewards are just too good. Spamming ranked is one of the best gold/per hour things you can do, and gives you legendary armor and trinkets. Literally couldn't ask for better rewards.

It's like several leagues ahead of fractals. If you are a PvPer, you can safely ignore fractals forever. There are matches in 4 am but fractal LFG is dead unless it's good hours. It's also solo play and duo play (for joining that is). This will always make it more alive than organized group content, as you press a button and play.

Edit: I thought you meant alacrity Spectre. Because with healer and alac being always one class, dps classes have to adapt. Virtuoso just brings damage, and it seems less than DH, but DH can bring other things. Even DPS spectre can do clutch barriers and heals etc. The whole point was Virtuoso is not doing a whole lot for Mesmer. I am a Mesmer main that plays it in all modes. I just don't see it. Mesmer relied on Virtuoso being good in Spvp and WvW and it just didn't happen.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Nezekan.2671