"We see healing and cleanse as the main pieces of scrapper's support identity" Really?

[ThrakathNar.4537]

"Scrapper is one of the premier support builds in WvW, and it's one that's potent at too many things. Scrapper brings strong healing and condition cleanse in addition to granting powerful effects like superspeed and quickness and generating boons with Purity of Purpose, among other things. We see healing and cleanse as the main pieces of scrapper's support identity, and while it will still grant superspeed and quickness (and other boons), we see its current output of these effects as too high. We do want scrapper to be a capable healer, but it's currently a bit stronger than we'd like so we're bringing down the healing of Medical Dispersion Field. "

(Taken from latest patch notes)

 

Seriously, ANet? How little do you play your own game? Scrapper's identity is not healing or cleansing - that's core engineer. Core engineer has medkit. Core engineer has egun. Core engineer has shared healing. Scrapper's defining things that set it apart from other heal engineer builds are literally the superspeed and quickness that you dismissed. Granted, I don't think that all of the changes are actually that bad. Apart from the nerf to MDF (it was already arguably worse than ACP, and now it's going to be completely unused), I think most of these changes are fine. Superspeed definitely needed to be toned down a bit, and nerfing the quickness uptime doesn't really make a difference because firebrand still exists. But this opinion that scrapper is where the healing comes from is just so ignorant of how the game actually works. To be clear - I'm not mad at most of the actual changes made, I'm mad at the thoughts that went into it and the lack of understanding demonstrated.

 

Also, that final statement is just so absurd. "Scrapper is stronger than we like, so we're nerfing core engineer." Sums up pretty much all nerfs engineer gets in this game.

Edited March 29, 2022 by ThrakathNar.4537

[VPK.1796]

RIP

[Kuma.1503]

"Scrapper is too strong at supporting. So we nerfed core engi and dps scrapper to bring it in line."

Classic Anet

"Firebrand is also too good at supporting. So we gave it a placebo nerf and buffed the hell out of Willbender."

Every time they hit engi, they break its shins. Every time they hit FB it's a tiny do-nothing nerf with paragraphs of compensation in other areas of Guardian's kit. 

Superspeed is what sets Scrapper apart from FB, not the healing and cleansing. They should lean into that more. Instead they nerf what sets it apart. 

Nerf Scrapper like you nerfed firebrand, make core engi traits less effective, but only when scrapper is selected. 

They also need to consider the knock on effects their nerfs have on other builds. Other builds but support scrapper exist. They obviously understand that concept with guardian, but not with any other classs.

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Shaogin.2679]

Quote

• Battle Presence: The following changes affect the firebrand elite specialization only.

I read this and was like WTF!? That is an option!? If that is possible then why does core Engineer keep getting nerfed because of Scrapper and Holosmith!?
 

 

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

"Scrapper is too strong at supporting. So we nerfed core engi and dps scrapper to bring it in line."

Honestly I was ok with super speed nerfs but now that you mentioned it, that is kind of messed up too. Totally forgot that it would nerf DPS Scrappers. 

[Legend of Rogue.5394]

4 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

"Scrapper is too strong at supporting. So we nerfed core engi and dps scrapper to bring it in line."

Classic Anet

"Firebrand is also too good at supporting. So we gave it a placebo nerf and buffed the hell out of Willbender."

Every time they hit engi, they break its shins. Every time they hit FB it's a tiny do-nothing nerf with paragraphs of compensation in other areas of Guardian's kit. 

Superspeed is what sets Scrapper apart from FB, not the healing and cleansing. They should lean into that more. Instead they nerf what sets it apart. 

Nerf Scrapper like you nerfed firebrand, make core engi traits less effective, but only when scrapper is selected. 

They also need to consider the knock on effects their nerfs have on other builds. Other builds but support scrapper exist. They obviously understand that concept with guardian, but not with any other classs.

 

Willbender was utter garbage and you know it..... Completely useless to play in any meta, all they did was reduce his CDs they barely buffed any of his damage which is the problem to begin with. 

[Arheundel.6451]

3 hours ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

I read this and was like WTF!? That is an option!? If that is possible then why does core Engineer keep getting nerfed because of Scrapper and Holosmith!?
 

 

Honestly I was ok with super speed nerfs but now that you mentioned it, that is kind of messed up too. Totally forgot that it would nerf DPS Scrappers. 

Support specs are not supposed to DPS on top! Every other support spec has been nerfed throughout and scrapper finally getting addressed after years

[Infusion.7149]

I don't know why anyone is surprised shared superspeed was reduced. It was bound to happen and it allows for AoEs to land on enemy players more consistently meaning fewer "boonball" complainers.

It's quite clear that mechanist wasn't touched in WVW because it's not a strong heal spec due to the mech.

[Reknarok.7582]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It's quite clear that mechanist wasn't touched in WVW because it's not a strong heal spec due to the mech.

 

Quote

Mechanist has continued to overperform in PvP even after the nerfs it received in the last update, and we're making additional adjustments to the mech's stat inheritance.

• Mechanist: Reduced jade mech stat inheritance by 20% for all stats in PvP only.

 

????

[Infusion.7149]

15 minutes ago, Reknarok.7582 said:

 

 

????

in PVP only.

[Shaogin.2679]

9 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Support specs are not supposed to DPS on top! Every other support spec has been nerfed throughout and scrapper finally getting addressed after years

The hell are you talking about? Did you actually read my post? 

 

So you are saying that since Scrapper is this OP support spec, that core Engineer should be nerfed. But since Firebrand is also an OP support spec, only Firebrand should be nerfed? Is there some logic that I am missing here?

 

My point was that both Scrapper and Firebrand were overperforming, so Anet went after a similar core trait on each class. But when they nerfed the trait on Firebrands, they did it so that it only takes affect when Firebrand is equipped. For the Engineer trait, they just said kitten it and nerfed it across the board.

 

Also, this was never an issue of support specs doing dps. Maybe go back and read the patch notes?

[Shaogin.2679]

Also, reading further into the patch notes, what the hell is this?

Quote

Core power guardian currently sees average success in lower ranked play, but it hasn't been a major player in higher ranks or serious tournament games for quite a while.

Do they not realize that core Engineer hasn't been in the meta for years like, at all!? Core Guardian has. The build always fluctuates, this time it is a meta support build, but it has been meta. So why are they bothered that core power Guardian isn't in the PvP meta, but they don't seem to care if other core classes are performing well or not? And why specifically power core Guardian? 

[Dediggefedde.4961]

I like how consistent they adapt medical dispersion field:

15-09-29: 12% to 20%
18-05-08:  20% to 50%
20-02-25: 50% to 25%
22-03-29: 25% to 15%

From past patches, I would expect them to remove the WvW split again at some point for an unknown yet reason.

 

That aside, the hole reason Anticorosion Plating is preferred and Purity of Purpose is valued so highly is the condispam in WvW.

Despite having pure power comps in most zergs for years, you get drowned in conditions in every zerg fight.

Only crowd control conditions and vulnerability should be available for builds streamlined for power damage. Currently, they are buried under damage conditions that are spammed for free. Enough to have a support scrapper in every subgroup doing 4 cleanses per second over minutes.

Just take the classic Power-Scourge Build:

http://de.gw2skills.net/editor/?PSABs2djlNwOYIsHmJOyL6vcA-zVRYBBLG9syIzUo7Kw2DQA7h3i+nRA-w

Free burning, bleeding or pain in half of the skills.

Nerf the random condition spam and ACP/PoP  will indirectly be nerfed and considered for something else.

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Dediggefedde.4961

[ThrakathNar.4537]

11 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I don't know why anyone is surprised shared superspeed was reduced. It was bound to happen and it allows for AoEs to land on enemy players more consistently meaning fewer "boonball" complainers.

It's quite clear that mechanist wasn't touched in WVW because it's not a strong heal spec due to the mech.

In my original post, I make it very specifically clear that I'm fine with superspeed being nerfed, I just don't think that the thought process and words behind this patch were well thought out at all, and demonstrated a lack of understanding of the game. Very much a "wrong formula, (mostly) right answer" balance patch.

 

Also - you're wrong when you say heal mechanist wasn't touched in WvW, because it was. Nerfs to core affect all of the elite specs, and both MDF and PoP were traits that every single heal engi build benefitted from. Mechanist and Scrapper have roughly the same cleanse output so PoP was equally beneficial, and while Mechanist did have less self healing, it still had some and thus loses out from MDF nerfs. This is the issue with this patch. Although it did nerf heal Scrapper which was strong in WvW, it also nerfed heal core and heal mechanist, which are not strong in WvW at all.

[Xaylin.1860]

The Engineer part of this patch is such a mess. While I hate it when core is nerfed because of eSpecs, I'm not too mad this time considering it also nerfs potential healing Mechanist builds and there really isn't any core Engineer healer build I can think of anyway. MDF is very passive and if they want to buff healing Engineer in the future it would probably be better to buff Soothing Detonation. But how on earth is healing and condition removal the identity of Scrapper? It clearly isn't.

 

When it comes to Firebrand, I love mine but it really needs a real trade off for the access to Tomes. Knocking on wood for the big summer patch but not holding my breath. This aside, there is no real point in comparing the changes. Despite the mumbo jumbo explanation ANet gave for the nerfs, they clearly just wanted Engineer to be worse at healing (not Scrapper specific although this is the meta atm.) and having to invest more into boon gear for Quickness on Scrapper. Both kind of a valid point from a balance perspective and they did the same when it comes to boons on other classes.

 

DPS on Scrapper (Superspeed) they probably just overlooked. It feels like the damage nerf that happened to Catalyst. But considering Holosmith is the DPS spec I wouldn't be sure that we get anything back to compensate.

[Shaogin.2679]

Furthermore, with the nerf to Kinetic Accelerators, Scrapper can no longer provide 100% quickness uptime even with 100% boon duration. Not sure if this is the case for other quickness support builds such as Firebrand, but this is kind of a strange approach considering that super speed and quickness is kind of the whole point of bringing Scrapper over core Engineer as a support class.

[Dediggefedde.4961]

Most Firebrand supporter Builds in WvW do not seem to use quickness share.

Usually they don't take Liberator's Vow, Stalwart Speed or Mantra of Potence in favor of Archivist of Whispers, Weighty Terms and Mantra of Lore. So, only Swift Scholar remains for 2s quickness on tome swap.

The dropped skills have their quickness duration halved in WvW anyway.

 

In PvE however, ritualistic stats let the condi-dps-firebrand now offer a 100% group quickness uptime.

Interestingly, this pairs well with the support-mechanist which brings easy 100% uptime for alacrity, fury, 25 might,. vigor, protection and regeneration. There, the mechanist actually over-cleanses/heals/barriers while offering utility, possibility to swap to scrapper for stealth and the mecha itself hits for half a damage-dealer. I prefer that actually over the old HFB+Alacren composition.

Fails underwater, though.

 

One big reason to bring Scrapper support in WvW remains the group stealth.
Bomb-kit + 4 blasts if you train a bit, + sneak gyro for restealth.
Many put a support-scrapper in each group just because of that.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Dediggefedde.4961

[Stalima.5490]

Super speed and quickness are so anti-thematic for how the scrapper appears, You would expect them to be these slower moving, slow attacking but hard hitting and tough melee fighters since their trademark is a 2-handed hammer, it doesn't exactly scream lightspeed...

What they should have done is simply removed the super speed (which is such a failure of a buff btw) and quickness (which should never have been allowed to multi target) then placed in more power and defense options to solidify what people expected of the scrapper, more renekton, less yuumi.

[Obtena.7952]

Seems someone doesn't understand how game development works. If Anet views Scrapper as something players think it's not ... then two thinks can happen:

1. Anet will change it until it does match their view.

2. The players simply have a different view than Anet. The problem here is that the relevant view will not be that of the player.  

In short ... if Anet view Scrapper as healing/cleanse and those aren't things it does ... get ready for a WILD ride of changes. Personally, I can see Anet's POV here ... it's entirely possible to play an effective healing Scrapper even though I dislike that style of playing it in WvW. The cleansing is a little more indirect but still possible. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

8 hours ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

In my original post, I make it very specifically clear that I'm fine with superspeed being nerfed, I just don't think that the thought process and words behind this patch were well thought out at all, and demonstrated a lack of understanding of the game. Very much a "wrong formula, (mostly) right answer" balance patch.

 

Also - you're wrong when you say heal mechanist wasn't touched in WvW, because it was. Nerfs to core affect all of the elite specs, and both MDF and PoP were traits that every single heal engi build benefitted from. Mechanist and Scrapper have roughly the same cleanse output so PoP was equally beneficial, and while Mechanist did have less self healing, it still had some and thus loses out from MDF nerfs. This is the issue with this patch. Although it did nerf heal Scrapper which was strong in WvW, it also nerfed heal core and heal mechanist, which are not strong in WvW at all.

Except med kit is still overperforming in WVW even with the nerfs.
Heal mechanist isn't used because the mech has a mind of its own and it may die leaving you with no barrier engine , using mace for barrier has an opportunity cost of not using med blaster.

I fully expected med kit to be toned down, although it probably should have been the heal's scaling with boons which was not split in Feb 2020 patch. If they have a goal of pushing tempest as a support then Faithful strike's healing should have been scaled back on firebrand as well similar to every "1 spam" passive (it wasn't touched in Feb 2020 patch either) similar to elementalist , druid, and revenant staff.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Xenash.1245]

17 hours ago, Reknarok.7582 said:

 

 

????

When you're fighting in a small tiny circle the mech can in fact hit things, but when you're in a big open field not so much.

[Xaylin.1860]

37 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Seems someone doesn't understand how game development works. If Anet views Scrapper as something players think it's not ... then two thinks can happen:

1. Anet will change it until it does match their view.

2. The players simply have a different view than Anet. The problem here is that the relevant view will not be that of the player.  

In short ... if Anet view Scrapper as healing/cleanse and those aren't things it does ... get ready for a WILD ride of changes. Personally, I can see Anet's POV here ... it's entirely possible to play an effective healing Scrapper even though I dislike that style of playing it in WvW. The cleansing is a little more indirect but still possible. 

Oh come on, it is not nearly that complicated in this case.

 

ANet made a convoluted statement about Scrapper identity while the only thing they wanted to say is that its support build overperforms in WvW (no surprise here) and has to be brought down to open up room for ... whatever, your guess. Coincidentally, core traits are once again collateral damage because that's where the healing and condition removal comes from, not Scrapper. Of course, people are irritated by the statement when looking at the changes. However, it is in no way about ANets vision in this case. They clearly still want Scrapper to do what it does. It's a simple numbers nerf that is poorly communicated.

 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Oh come on, it is not nearly that complicated in this case.

 

ANet made a convoluted statement about Scrapper identity while the only thing they wanted to say is that its support build overperforms in WvW (no surprise here) and has to be brought down to open up room for ... whatever, your guess. Coincidentally, core traits are once again collateral damage because that's where the healing and condition removal comes from, not Scrapper. Of course, people are irritated by the statement when looking at the changes. However, it is in no way about ANets vision in this case. They clearly still want Scrapper to do what it does. It's a simple numbers nerf that is poorly communicated.

 

I don't get your statement ... what I said doesn't make it complicated at all. The 'whatever, your guess' in your post isn't really a guess ... it's healing and condition cleansing. That's not about Anet's vision? ... weird take. That's ALL it seems to be about because the changes don't actually modify what a Healing Scrapper does or how it works. The changes just make it less effective at those things, because Anet thinks they are too effective. 

I think the valid complaint about these changes is that it reduces effectiveness of these specific things, but still doesn't address the completely polarizing nature of the Scrapper healing/support build. Maybe we are in the same space. The biggest problem I have with this change is that there really isn't a trade off in being less effective as a purely support/healing role when you have zero damage and that the effectiveness of such a build is either it is effective (and people don't die if you heal them) or it's not effective ... and they die. So, it's pretty pointless to have a zero-damage, pure healing/support class that isn't effective. 

My point is that Anet is giving us a hint of expectations for Scrapper performance in a support role, so the complaints from the OP that Scrapper 'isn't in this role' aren't valid. Personally, I think a pure healing/support Scrapper build should die in a fire, not because it's OP, but because it takes up class design bandwidth for a VERY niche specialized role where it's effectiveness is difficult to balance. 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Castillan.4259]

All of it is making me want to play the game less.  I'm sure I'm not alone in that thinking, and that's what should really concern Anet at the end of the day.  Fumbling nerf waves that trash what the player-base has invested in for years leads to a disillusioned and unhappy player base.

I'm a casual player.  I admit it.  I was loving my open-world condi Revenant pre-EoD.  Now I barely touch that character because it's gone from something that could take on 4 mobs at once to something that gets trashed by them within seconds.  I'd also leveled up a decent Scrapper, that got nerfed.  I've been enjoying Mechanist, but everyone seems to want to nerf that too for some reason.  I'm enjoying playing the Specter spec too, but with all these nerfs flying about, if that gets taken away from me too all its doing is taking away my desire to log back in again.

[Dadnir.5038]

There are still people that read and believe that flavor text they put on their patch note make sense? Come on, we are in 2022, we've got close to 10 years of these already.

[Samis.1750]

I see a lot of comparisons with guardians. Guardian Mantra of Solace used to heal for almost 1k (with trait) and grant aegis. They changed it to 3 seconds of protection and 1s of resistance. It now heals for 200. They recently nerfed the guardian dodge roll heal from a 1.0 to .6. So instead of 2 dodges healing for 3000, they now heal for 1800. Now today they nerfed both the base heal and the modifier on absolute resolve.

Both guardians and engineers were both overpowered in WvW zergs, so much so that organized guilds had a firebrand and a scrapper in every group. My view is that changes such as this are likely a good thing. But I play my firebrand in a non-meta guild group, and I'm not sure I want to play a healing firebrand any more since we just don't heal that much any more.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Samis.1750