Core mesmer skills 6-10 are garbage and need to be redone

[viquing.8254]

15 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

A bit weird take. We have 5 slots for utilities. Do you or do you not have enough choices in utilities relevant for your PVP builds? Just because you never use some of them in PVP does not mean we have a problem here. Every utility is garbage for PVP? I doubt it.

Isn't this post talking about diversity ?

Mean why did they remove glamour trait who made glamour can be usable in PvP for example ?

In which world superspeed on glamour required a nerf ?

Who didn't get bored to use the same utility for years while never used one never get rework or even number adjustment ?

Edited April 3, 2022 by viquing.8254

[Levetty.1279]

On 4/2/2022 at 3:39 AM, Nephalem.8921 said:

Not sure if you know about 

This is basically RR ren but mesmer version which also provides might.

Some mesmer utils need buffs some are fine. Most (all?) support utilities exist on guardian but better. Happens when most devs main guardian. 

Compared to ele mesmer offers great utility. 

They need to revert confusion on staff back to burning and give it the same damage as Alacgrad (or more as it has less utility and more ramp up). Fed up of these confusion meme builds.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Levetty.1279

[frareanselm.1925]

Stop comparing core specs with expansion specs. In 2012 there wasnt alacrity/boon classes, blah blah. it was just dps, share minor heals and save yourself.

[apharma.3741]

On 4/2/2022 at 4:30 AM, Mell.4873 said:

I could not disagree more, most if not all utilities have a purpose. They might not be as powerful some other classes but the general Mesmer kit is so strong it doesn't mater.

Glamour: Most are WvW or avoiding mechanic tools. For example Feedback has a tiny cooldown for basically a free 30% downed heal and this normally gives them time to self rez.

Clone/Phantasm: Makes clones so massive damage buff. For example some people might bash Phantasmal Defender but its an OP CC and the longest lasting taunt in the game when pared with Chronomancer, not to mention you can cast it like 3 times in a row.

Manipulation: Is a mix of damage avoidance and utility. For example Mimic works well with lots of skills and Illusion of Life is a free group resurrect what's not to like here.

Mantra: Mix of damage, CC, support and healing. For example this can create on of the most traditional healer in the game, its impossible to play but you can in theory heal someone to full on a moments notice.
(Trust me I have tried to Strike heal with it and found it hard)

Signets: Do I need to say more, these are so OP every condition or support spec picks at least 2 of them as their utilities. Not just for the amazing passive but there active effects are exactly what you want to see for a signet. For example Signet of Domination can provide a 300 break bar equivalent to F3 shatter and Signet of Midnight is a Stun break with the added bonus of stealth.

 

Glamour - untrue, they nerfed the feedback rez fyi but also fights are so mobile null field is largely ignored and time warp is large but also moved out of, it's the best of the lot minus veil but you should blast stealth it's better.

Clone/Phantasm - er.... most people just stun break and kite it or interrupt the 1s cast. Clones are killed almost instantly in WvW unless ranged where they do negligable damage outside of ranged conid which reflect is too prevelant and see killed fast. Strikes me you're talking mainly about PvE though.

Mantra - you can run a support healer/cleanse build with it but it's not good when you can run...literally any other healer and not have to worry about being almost on top of your allies to provide effects.

Signets - People take signet of midnight because it's lower cool down than decoy, if they had the same CD most would take decoy again. Signet of Illusions is flat out busted for it's active, only thing it's missing is invuln (can be traited) and it's basically a better renewed focus. Signet of domination is kinda bad, inspiration is nerfed to the floor and below. The heal is OK when traited, otherwise like other mesmer heals it's bad.

 

I guess this is what happens when all the veteran mesmers stopped playing and commenting on the forums, we get this kind of "insight".

[Tseison.4659]

Every Mesmer player plays differently depending on the mode they do choose and sometimes people can make most, if not all utilities work for them (I’d say this is more possible in PvE and maybe a few in WvW) and then when it comes to PvP/WvW it’s situational, but majority of the time we’ll be slotting the SAME utilities we’ve carried for years.

Don’t get me wrong, we do have some utilities that are “unique” it it that they do find some use depending where we are, but I do think there’s a couple that need to be reworked, do something that no other profession or utility has, create traits or add something more to what we currently have. 

I’ll always still push for a new “Clone/Illusion” type utility that’s an elite which shares similarities to what the White Mantle Mesmer has “Break Illusion to reveal the real Mesmer”, it would almost be like a mini shroud but illusion based.

But anyways; getting into what others have mentioned about certain utilities not being used either because some are uninspired or don’t find any use out of them. Again, everyone plays differently and it depends on the mode your in. I won’t speak for PvP because I haven’t stepped foot in there for years, but I guess a few of my mentions can reflect over there as well. Then in terms of PvE, yes you can pretty much bring anything there, however, I still only find myself only ever using a few skills.

Below I’ll only be listing utilities that I personally don’t find useful in any of the modes and should be changed entirely or looked at again, hopefully for the summer profession update.

🔮Decoy (aside from the stealth, not sure why I would take this over Mirror Images, Desperate decoy trait cooldown is still too long and should be greatly reduced or change the trait entirely).

🔮Phantasmal Defender (no real in-depth comment on this, I also think this should be removed from the inspiration traitline).

🔮Null Field (now don’t get me wrong, I love glamour skills and definitely believe they could be pushed or enhanced in a beautiful and unique way, but in the case of WvW and with how fast boons can be distributed, the removal of one boon just feels like a waste to me. That’s why I usually will bring Phantasmal Disenchanter or traited Signet of Domination. I just find the removal of 5+ boons more appealing, and I do hope they perhaps increase the boon removal for Null Field. Perhaps from 1 > 2 or maybe per interval the number of boons removed increases, which will make it even deadlier.)

🔮Veil (as nice as this may be for some, it just doesn’t compare when you have a better skill such as the Scrappers Sneak Gyro. So for Veil, I personally would just create a whole new skill. If not, i’d increase the stealth duration and lower the cooldown, but even after all that, Sneak Gyro would still be a better option for others, thus I would still prefer to just change the whole skill in general).

🔮All Mantras (yes I do use Mantra of Pain I’m PvE, yes I do use Mantra of Resolve in WvW sometimes, but a part of me wishes they had some form of Final charge to them like the Firebrands)

🔮Signet of Inspiration (aside from using it for distortion on a 20s cooldown when traited, after it’s boon share nerf AND most recently our boon share being placed on the Harbinger, I personally I don’t use this skill. Is it useless? Not really but they should have never taken away our boon share just to give to another profession. If they wanted to give this signet a bit of flavour, they could have the passive give a random boon not only to yourself but also to nearby allies then the active could be a sort of effect where for X amount of seconds, incoming boons on you and allies are increased by a %. Just a thought though.)

🔮Wells (I personally use all Wells in PvE when I’m playing support and then will use Gravity Well a lot in WvW. However, the only reason why I mention Wells here, not that they aren’t useful, I just think all Wells excluding Gravity Well, should go off at the Mesmers location to prevent allies from missing boons & healing. Wells are still great but this would be a perfect QoL.)

🔮Sand Through Glass (Don’t use, don’t find it useful and would have rather the evade distance be increased or change the skill entirely.)

🔮Mirage Advance (I dislike the slight wind up and ever since Mirages launch, my opinion on Mirage Advance and Illusionary Ambush being combined still stands to this day.)

Lastly, 

🔮Rain of Swords, Sword of Decimation and Thousand Cuts (My opinion still stands that they all are pretty much the same, uninspiring and should’ve been combined together. Yes in PvE situation Rain of Swords and Thousand Cuts are okay but that’s only because there’s not many variety in damage based utility skills aside from mantra of pain, phantasmal disenchanter and defender lol.)

🔮Twin Blade Restoration (Maybe increase damage? But I still wouldn’t use it when there’s better options.)

🔮Psychic Force (Still wish this skills knockback was farther, but I personally don’t use.)

🔮Blade Renewal (It’s so nice, but I still think it belongs on the F4 instead. Situational and would still carry it in a WvW situation, I guess for those who play PvP would bring there too, but ugh, just hate having to remove something else just to slot this which we’ve been so conditioned to seeing on F4.)

Overall, we have plenty of utility for different situations depending on YOUR playstyle. But it would be nice to see some tweaks, changes and/reworks to a couple. ☺️

Edited April 3, 2022 by Tseison.4659

[Nephalem.8921]

3 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

They need to revert confusion on staff back to burning and give it the same damage as Alacgrad (or more as it has less utility and more ramp up). Fed up of these confusion meme builds.

That build does 37.5k dps on the golem without proccing confusion. 40k on most encounters. it is not a confusion meme build.

[Levetty.1279]

2 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

That build does 37.5k dps on the golem without proccing confusion. 40k on most encounters. it is not a confusion meme build.

About 7k too high there but ok.

[Xaylin.1860]

18 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

About 7k too high there but ok.

I really can't remember when/where, but I have a "We want primary boon support builds [Alarcity and Quickness] to bench out at about 75% DPS wise when compared to DPS builds"-statement floating around in my head. The wording was different (talking about 40k vs. 30k) but that's what I took from it. So I think Staff(-Mirage) doesn't really need more damage in ANets eyes. And I got to agree when looking at Alacrity and Might.

 

However, something I had been thinking about since I played a lot of Specter lately... What if the Torch trait was reworked to trigger a lesser Prestige (Burning and Blast finisher, ICD) when exciting stealth with increased potency while whielding a Torch. That could be kind of fun and wouldn't cater current (DPS) builds too much. And while it encourages Stealth, you will have to be in close combat.

[Mell.4873]

On 4/3/2022 at 11:20 PM, apharma.3741 said:

 

Glamour - untrue, they nerfed the feedback rez fyi but also fights are so mobile null field is largely ignored and time warp is large but also moved out of, it's the best of the lot minus veil but you should blast stealth it's better.

Clone/Phantasm - er.... most people just stun break and kite it or interrupt the 1s cast. Clones are killed almost instantly in WvW unless ranged where they do negligable damage outside of ranged conid which reflect is too prevelant and see killed fast. Strikes me you're talking mainly about PvE though.

Mantra - you can run a support healer/cleanse build with it but it's not good when you can run...literally any other healer and not have to worry about being almost on top of your allies to provide effects.

Signets - People take signet of midnight because it's lower cool down than decoy, if they had the same CD most would take decoy again. Signet of Illusions is flat out busted for it's active, only thing it's missing is invuln (can be traited) and it's basically a better renewed focus. Signet of domination is kinda bad, inspiration is nerfed to the floor and below. The heal is OK when traited, otherwise like other mesmer heals it's bad.

 

I guess this is what happens when all the veteran mesmers stopped playing and commenting on the forums, we get this kind of "insight".

Again you comparing it high-level PvP for general play everything is fine. I mean i use mantra heals when i don't have time to switch. 

Clones do die in WvW but when to we rate a skill on one gamemode. Clone/phantasm skills are staples in PvE. 

[Xaylin.1860]

15 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Again you comparing it high-level PvP for general play everything is fine. I mean i use mantra heals when i don't have time to switch. 

He is. But a similar assessment can be made for Fractals, Strike and WvW. 

 

Again, you can always find a use for all skills. It is not like they don't function. The issue is that Mesmers got so obvious BiS choices. If you don't care about efficiency, go for it. But it would be nice to see more skills shine.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Decoy - CD is prohibitive.

Null field - outdated af, needs redesign. 

Portal - smitersbooned on pvp. Thief portal is so much better. 

Veil - outdated af. 

Illusion of life - nerfed into oblivion 

Mimic - apart from some meme'ic use its useless. 

MoC - never used it since 2012.

Phantasms - never used except for chrono phantasm spam time. 

SoD - meh

SoInspi - nerfed to oblivion

Time warp - lul

Chrono:

All Wells except gravity- garbage

Mirage:

Crystal sands - garbage

Mirage advance - this kitten could be good if not for the activation time

Sand through glass (curunen is going to kill me) - garbage

Virt:

All except for BR - garbage. 

 

Its not only core, mesmer as a whole is plagued by trash 6 to 10. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Jojo.6590]

On 3/31/2022 at 3:54 PM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Truth be told signet of mimicry sounds amazing, but another thing that could work is Signet of Iboga where you literally put the Iboga hallucination effect on your enemy.

I remember when I first experienced the hallucination mechanic in one of the human start-mid zones when the game first came out. Since then I've always thought this would be an amazing concept for Mesmer (new elite). Would be tricky to do since only the person afflicted with the hallucination debuff/condition(?) sees and takes damage from the hallucinations. I have to agree with you that this would make for an awesome elite spec given someone else other then the team that made the EOD elites makes its.

[Salt Mode.3780]

40 minutes ago, Jojo.6590 said:

I remember when I first experienced the hallucination mechanic in one of the human start-mid zones when the game first came out. Since then I've always thought this would be an amazing concept for Mesmer (new elite). Would be tricky to do since only the person afflicted with the hallucination debuff/condition(?) sees and takes damage from the hallucinations. I have to agree with you that this would make for an awesome elite spec given someone else other then the team that made the EOD elites makes its.

I mean the concept of a no clone mesmer, this wouldve been the perfect mechanic to somewhat fit the GW1 mesmer theme of disabling someone. Considering many of the skills that disable enemies are reworked into torment, confusion, and to some extent poison, it is fitting to have something that literally gives u hallucinations. 

[Kulvar.1239]

Mantra of Recovery is so trash right now, I don't understand why it's left in this state.

Healing should be increased by 150% to be on par with the other healing skills.

 

[viquing.8254]

6 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Mantra of Recovery is so trash right now, I don't understand why it's left in this state.

Healing should be increased by 150% to be on par with the other healing skills.

 

Make it aoe too please

[mortrialus.3062]

I mean just to compare our absolute best most mandatory utility in PvP is Blink. 

Blink is a stunbreak and 1200 units of movement on a 35 second cooldown in PvP.  That's it. 

Thief Shadowstep is two 1200 units of movement on a 50 second cooldown that cleanses conditions when you use the return portion of the skill. 

Blink provides 34 units of movement per second.

Shadowstep provides 48 units of movement per second.   

Shadowstep is just flatly 30% better than Blink even ignoring the fact that it cleanses.  Even traited, Blink doesn't give the level of movement shadowstep does. 

Traited shadowstep provides 60 units of movement per second.  Traited blink provide 40 units of movement per second.

And thief and mesmer are supposed to be direct competitors as roamers.  Our unambiguously best utility is massively mathematically outclassed by our direct competition.

 

Another comparison, feedback is a projectile reflection on a 25 second cooldown. 6 second duration.  That's it.  If the target is trying to melee you are still perfectly vulnerable.  It provides an ethereal field that isn't super, super useful.

Smoke screen is a huge SPvP node sized smoke field that both blinds targets within it, and destroys projectiles making the only reliable way to hit a target inside of it is either resistance or to stand outside the field and use nonprojectile based ground targeted AOE or beam attacks like Confusing Images. It also provides a massively valuable smoke field which can be combo'd with to provide stealth. 

And this is another one that can be improved with Hidden Thief which is an all around excellent trait that is always going to be picked if they're Shadow Arts, bumping it's cooldown from 45 seconds down to 36 seconds. 

If feedback was designed the way thief's Smokescreen Was, it'd pulse do ton more to ensure its always valuable as a defensive utility like pulsing out weakness and confusion on foes inside the feedback bubble.

Edited April 14, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[Xaylin.1860]

On 4/14/2022 at 9:02 AM, mortrialus.3062 said:

And thief and mesmer are supposed to be direct competitors as roamers.  Our unambiguously best utility is massively mathematically outclassed by our direct competition.

You massively shift your examples in favor of your arguement. In short: Blink is still a better (because more frequent) Stunbreak than Shadowstep. Feedback is less situational projectile hate (because it is a dome) than Smokescreen. 

 

That being said, Mesmer Utilities do need help. I just don't think Blink and not even Feedback are in dire need and that such a comparison does anyone any favor. 😆

[mortrialus.3062]

10 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

You massively shift your examples in favor of your arguement. In short: Blink is still a better (because more frequent) Stunbreak than Shadowstep. Feedback is less situational projectile hate (because it is a dome) than Smokescreen. 

 

That being said, Mesmer Utilities do need help. I just don't think Blink and not even Feedback are in dire need and that such a comparison does anyone any favor. 😆

What are you talkin about smoke screen being bad because it's not a dome.   I dunno if there's some insane niche situation where if you have 900 units of elevation on a thief and are shooting down at him at a 75-90 degree angle you'll still hit through smokescreen but that situation is so niche in SPvP as to might as well not exist.   Smoke screen is objectively far less situational than Feedback, because it is more usable in far more situations than just a ranged player firing exclusively projectiles.  It has ranged hate, it has melee blind, it provides an option for easy stealth.

Math is math.  For a roamer, which both thief and mesmer are designed to be, Shadowstep is better on a very clear mathematical basis that does matter and does add up when you're looking at rotations and pushing the map over the course of an entire game. You literally cannot argue otherwise, that's just the math.  I ain't saying Blink needs to be completely reworked and taken back to the drawing board.  But stuff like the +5s added cooldown that came with the megabalance was on an almost objective level unnecessary. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[Xaylin.1860]

1 hour ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

What are you talkin about smoke screen being bad because it's not a dome.

No, I am saying that Feedback is better at protecting an AREA from projectiles than Smokescreen because it is a dome. And I didn't even mention the reflect part.

 

1 hour ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

You literally cannot argue otherwise, that's just the math. 

And while mobility is lower, mathematically, Blink is the better Stunbreak, my friend.

 

I'm just pointing out that you only highlights aspects you personally deem important in a specific situation while neglecting other factors completely.

[rune.9572]

Smoke screen *is* spherical, like all round AoEs (the "AoE" is just a raycast intersection with ground. Go figure). The reason why you can sometimes hit through it is because projectiles approach infinite speed the closer they get to vertical orientation and the game doesn't have enough ticks to process them in time.

Smoke screen is also unblockable, and it destroys projectiles instead of reflecting them. So it's objectively better since it won't *reveal* you due to some bounced arrow randomly hitting someone.

Reflection also has a limit of 2 bounces per projectile, destruction doesn't because, well, the projectile is destroyed. So if you put down a reflect AND your opponent also puts down a reflect, all their projectiles would still hit YOU through YOUR reflect ulness they expire first. Funny, eh?

Nobody slots blink for just stunbreak. lmao. If you gave mesmer players choice between Blink and Shadowstep, everyone would be using shadowstep *because* it lets you juke.

@Xaylin.1860 do you even PVP?

Edited April 15, 2022 by rune.9572

[Salt Mode.3780]

The amount of plays a Mesmer can do with shadowstep is insane, I know if I had shadowstep it would def change my builds and gameplay. 

Even Virtuoso's buggy sword 3 I've changed a bit on how I play and that crap port back range is so small.

[katte nici.9483]

By the way the sword 3 shadow step skill does not return you to the starting point. Even if you don't move at all after leaping it will be a few steps short of the actual starting position.

[Salt Mode.3780]

5 minutes ago, katte nici.9483 said:

By the way the sword 3 shadow step skill does not return you to the starting point. Even if you don't move at all after leaping it will be a few steps short of the actual starting position.

I mean this i know but nethertheless its still something.

[rune.9572]

Reminder that the title is still true @ArenaNet Team.4819

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 3/31/2022 at 3:35 PM, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

Surge of the Mist ties you to a non-DPS support weapon for 10 seconds, it's not a trivial cost for DPS revs.

 

A more apt comparison is Basilisk Venom, an elite on a 40 sec cd that does 750 CC damage, or the Willbender Elite,  Heaven's Palm, 550 CC damage at 45 sec cd.

as a firebrand player, I just drop sanctuary and do more CC then most classes with their entire kits, while also healing, chilling, dealing damage and blocking projectiles. Feels good to play a good class.