Why are we obsessed with Mesmer PvP

[Mell.4873]

Of course you all know I don't use Mesmer PvP and the developers have heavily nerfed most of the huge advantage Mesmer players had in PvP. 

Almost all the builds that exist in the game are about PvE, most of profession posts are about PvE (theif subforum is only exception).  Finally most of the game is PvE, most of the player base is PvE, the top 250 sPvP players are not even all in Platinum. 

Now the question is why are the Mesmer forum players so obsessed with balancing Mesmer around PvP.

A perfect example is phantasmal defender, this is absolutely fine in PvE but people want it removed or changed since its bad in PvP.

The rule should be if anyone makes a post and doesn't explicitly say PvP then assume it is PvE.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Mell.4873

[viquing.8254]

Because balance in PvP is way harder to achieve than balance in PvE and thus should see more posts.

Because talking about balance in PvE generaly mean adjusting number while talking about balance in PvP very often touch design.

Because at release mesmer was the best duellist in this game.

Because mesmer has the best build diversity in WvW before 2015.

Because at release mesmer in PvE was just a time warp bot in fractal.

Because open world PvE builds didn't matter.

Because back in 2012, I buy gw2 because it hasn't raid.

Because it's more interesting reacting to player skills than to learn PvE patterns.

Because illusions system was cluncky in PvE.

 

Then we can discuss about how they kill WvW and PvP over the years.

 

Almost all the theorycrafting is about competitive, whatever mode it is.

Saying all build are PvE is false, it wasn't the case until past 2 and 2 years since 2012 mean nothing.

 

So the (lol) rule should be about talking PvP by default (enjoy.).

 

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

53 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Now the question is why are the Mesmer forum players so obsessed with balancing Mesmer around PvP.

 

Just personal experience from WvW and SPvP but mesmers tend to be that kind of psycopaths that come, ruin your duels at dueling spots and then BM you non stop if you show some sort of solid resistance lol So makes sense they want their toys to remain viable, despite there are so many sleeper builds out there still.
Such classes that have burst and easy ways to reset fights tend to attrack such people I guess.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, viquing.8254 said:

Because balance in PvP is way harder to achieve than balance in PvE and thus should see more posts.

Because talking about balance in PvE generaly mean adjusting number while talking about balance in PvP very often touch design.

Because at release mesmer was the best duellist in this game.

Because mesmer has the best build diversity in WvW before 2015.

Because at release mesmer in PvE was just a time warp bot in fractal.

Because open world PvE builds didn't matter.

Because back in 2012, I buy gw2 because it hasn't raid.

Because it's more interesting reacting to player skills than to learn PvE patterns.

Because illusions system was cluncky in PvE.

 

Then we can discuss about how they kill WvW and PvP over the years.

 

Almost all the theorycrafting is about competitive, whatever mode it is.

Saying all build are PvE is false, it wasn't the case until past 2 and 2 years since 2012 mean nothing.

 

So the (lol) rule should be about talking PvP by default (enjoy.).

 

I agree with all of this, which is why I find it useless to try and balance it based of anything other than statistics. Arena Net will  see the most used builds and then nerf them accordingly, this explains why Spellbreaker was nerfed recently.
I mean it doesn't answer the question of why Spellbreaker was so good (boon spam counter).

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:

Just personal experience from WvW and SPvP but mesmers tend to be that kind of psycopaths that come, ruin your duels at dueling spots and then BM you non stop if you show some sort of solid resistance lol So makes sense they want their toys to remain viable, despite there are so many sleeper builds out there still.
Such classes that have burst and easy ways to reset fights tend to attrack such people I guess.

I think this is why there was such a backlash against Mesmer since anyone could do well irrespective of skill. I mean this is probably why I see so many Virtuosos in Gold recently, I'm not to sure about WvW since I don't duel often.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Ombras.2853]

Every time you mention Phantasmal Defender I understand that you don’t play (at least Mesmer) in:

- sPvP

- WvW

- Raids

- Strikes

- T4 Fractals

So, basically… every single end game mode of the game.

Now, please, tell me why you feel compelled about saying in every single topic “people believe this is good/bad, but it’s actually…”.

And I think there are lots of exaggerations going on in the Mesmer forums, don’t get me wrong.

But if for everything you base your feedback on farmtrains and champ solo, those feedbacks have no value at all.

[Lethion.8745]

Because Mesmer is a PvP class.

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Every time you mention Phantasmal Defender I understand that you don’t play (at least Mesmer) in:

- sPvP

- WvW

- Raids

- Strikes

- T4 Fractals

So, basically… every single end game mode of the game.

Now, please, tell me why you feel compelled about saying in every single topic “people believe this is good/bad, but it’s actually…”.

And I think there are lots of exaggerations going on in the Mesmer forums, don’t get me wrong.

But if for everything you base your feedback on farmtrains and champ solo, those feedbacks have no value at all.

All those things you stated roughly equate to 30% (if I'm being generous) of the game.

Again most of the game is open world PvE where the phantasmal defender is amazing and provides the longest taunt in the game on Chronomancer. 

Anyway my point is that people almost always think my posts or replies are about PvP, it's just a bit annoying is all. 

[Mell.4873]

34 minutes ago, Lethion.8745 said:

Because Mesmer is a PvP class.

Well I think that's why it keeps getting nerfed for PVP balance. Pretty much the same story with thiefs. 

The one exception is the Chrono nerfs with fractal balance. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Salt Mode.3780]

Ill say it quite blunt and ill repeat it if i have to, PvE balance is irrelevant compared to PvP its as simple as that.

Added a couple seconds to bleed duration and suddenly condi virtuoso is a thing, those numbers wont fly in competitive play.

The annoyance is Virtuoso is fine in PvE w/e but more or less people are now focused on the competitive side for Virtuoso. 

Mesmer mains have been waiting for a spec to be back in competitive play, its always been w/e with PvE.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

4 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I think this is why there was such a backlash against Mesmer since anyone could do well irrespective of skill. I mean this is probably why I see so many Virtuosos in Gold recently, I'm not to sure about WvW since I don't duel often.

For WvW it's just turn away and spam /sleep while they try and chase you across the map. Because it's so fun to fight YET ANOTHER type of condi/hybrid inspiri mesmer.

Funny because I saw enough virtuoso in platin, they can't do kitten if there is a dedicated support in team fight or similar bs-around-camp-far-for-1vX spec against them but otherwise there is a good amount of specs they just kitten on. Not to mention if it's a good mesmer you wont ever be able to shut it down.


 

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Ill say it quite blunt and ill repeat it if i have to, PvE balance is irrelevant compared to PvP its as simple as that.

Added a couple seconds to bleed duration and suddenly condi virtuoso is a thing, those numbers wont fly in competitive play.

The annoyance is Virtuoso is fine in PvE w/e but more or less people are now focused on the competitive side for Virtuoso. 

Mesmer mains have been waiting for a spec to be back in competitive play, its always been w/e with PvE.

I 100% agree which is why they are having such a hard time balancing PvP. If anything PoF had the most specs geared towards PvP while EoD has more specs that add the final trinity to each elite spec.

I mean Mesmer did lack a decent ranged options outside of greatsword(power) or staff(condi) which have both been heavily nerfed. I don't think they went out of there way to make it PvP elite when they thought up Virtuoso which I guess is the problem. I don't know, this is exactly why I play ranger as I have stated.

Ranger is less squishy and I can play it completely ranged like Virtuoso and I have a really OP Untamed Condi hybrid at the moment, High gold in the top 250 what more can ask for.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Ombras.2853]

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

All those things you stated roughly equate to 30% (if I'm being generous) of the game.

Again most of the game is open world PvE where the phantasmal defender is amazing and provides the longest taunt in the game on Chronomancer. 

Anyway my point is that people almost always think my posts or replies are about PvP, it's just a bit annoying is all. 

30%?

It’s the ENTIRETY of the end game content.

This is not arguable.

Again, if your concern is farmtrains and champ solo, every-single-class-in-the-game has builds that can be used to survive in the wild.

”Most of the game”, I’d really like to know what it is.

And why NOBODY plays Phantasmal Defender, I wonder.

(But even in a farming map, for example, is a waste of a skill, so even worse).

[Mell.4873]

14 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

30%?

It’s the ENTIRETY of the end game content.

This is not arguable.

Again, if your concern is farmtrains and champ solo, every-single-class-in-the-game has builds that can be used to survive in the wild.

”Most of the game”, I’d really like to know what it is.

And why NOBODY plays Phantasmal Defender, I wonder.

(But even in a farming map, for example, is a waste of a skill, so even worse).

True but how many people even play Fractals, Conquest PvP or WvW. Most of the guilds i play with don't do fractals, they only PvP for Guild missions and they are all waiting for the WvW update to play that. As you have pointed out most people end game run meta trains, HP trains or bounties. I mean their is at least 100 people join Casino Blitz for the Choya Piñata every 2 hours.
 

A Chronomancer running Phantasmal Defender can tank whole groups of enemies (with a build I run) so you don't need any survivability and can even use Signet of the Ether for another Phantasm charge rather than for healing.

Me and my wife both run this build and the rotation from opener to finish is very long but when used in unison we can 1 shot most champions. It is amazing how effective Phantasmal Defender is against anything even if they have a breakbar, we normally target the enemy with highest health and then spread out our other phantasms on the rest.

[Ombras.2853]

I still fail to understand how perfectioning a build for how good it survives during a meta train makes any sense when trying to balance a class.

It has none.

You can literally play the heck you want in open world generic content, and also this isn’t arguable.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Ombras.2853

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Ombras.2853 said:

I still fail to understand how perfectioning a build for how good it survives during a meta train makes any sense when trying to balance a class.

It has none.

You can literally play the heck you want in open world generic content, and also this isn’t arguable.

A useful thing to note is taunt is the rarest and the second highest breakbar per second at 75. Fear is the highest at 100 but is really common, i mean its built into shroud.

That is very helpful to Meta Trains!

Edited April 5, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Puck.3697]

Once a proffession has gotten as good as it will get in a enviroment there's 0 point talking about it anymore. 

Mesmer already has a tank, Boon, quickness and alacrity build. Virt offers it the highest Condi and power DPS builds in the game. So why talk about it? This is a forum place to critize where we feel this proffession lacks. 

Chanting how good it is in one enviroment is irrelevant. Good feedback doesn't need to be happening realistically. 

Spvp is where mesmer is where help is needed so players will focus their feedback into spvp / wvwvw. Because that's where change is realistically needed. 

The obsession with keep going on about PvE is more annoying then the spvp uproar. Purely because the PvE obsessed chanting aims to achieve nothing for the proffession. They have nothing to give it. 

Spvp is the focus. As it's lacking and it needs to be given something 

[Mell.4873]

5 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Once a proffession has gotten as good as it will get in a enviroment there's 0 point talking about it anymore. 

Mesmer already has a tank, Boon, quickness and alacrity build. Virt offers it the highest Condi and power DPS builds in the game. So why talk about it? This is a forum place to critize where we feel this proffession lacks. 

Chanting how good it is in one enviroment is irrelevant. Good feedback doesn't need to be happening realistically. 

Spvp is where mesmer is where help is needed so players will focus their feedback into spvp / wvwvw. Because that's where change is realistically needed. 

The obsession with keep going on about PvE is more annoying then the spvp uproar. Purely because the PvE obsessed chanting aims to achieve nothing for the proffession. They have nothing to give it. 

Spvp is the focus. As it's lacking and it needs to be given something 

I agree sadly....

It was more that all my posts and replies got misconstrued that I was talking about PvP and I just got annoyed so I made this thread. I mean anyone coming into the Mesmer forum must think they suck and should never be played in any game mode (maybe just WvW).

Edited April 5, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Mik.3401]

It is just one of the game modes and Mesmer underperforms there without the use of cheesy means like burst from stealth or relying on inspi traitline. Even those do not guarantee success even.  Some people just like Pvp and like Mesmer this is not obsession it’s just what it is. If you don’t like pvp you might find it strange, but it’s ok because it’s not for everyone.

I kind of quit pvp because my favourite classes (Mesmer, elementalist) just cannot perform well there. If someone asks if they are balanced in competitive I’d say 100% underpowered, it’s just facts.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Mik.3401

[Puck.3697]

42 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I agree sadly....

It was more that all my posts and replies got misconstrued that I was talking about PvP and I just got annoyed so I made this thread. I mean anyone coming into the Mesmer forum must think they suck and should never be played in any game mode (maybe just WvW).

Well I guess just be thankful the vast majority of players don't read forums 😂 people on forums generally come after someone becomes disgruntled by something. 

In Mesmers case it's commonly once they see PvP. Hence the uproar being so targetted 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Dadnir.5038]

Well, one could also say that sPvP is the focus of discussion because most people that only play PvE never ever come to the forum.

[mortrialus.3062]

You can run literally anything and be successful in the open world.  Literally anything.

You can run literally anything and beat the story.  Literally anything.

You can run tons of different things and be successful in raids and fractals and strikes.

In PvP it's where balance matters most as that's when balance is going to actually have a severe impact on whether you succeed. 

You're aren't fighting NPCs that are literally designed to lose against you.  You're up against players playing things designed to compete with you and trying to win.

Edited April 6, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

You should design (mostly) around PvP and then just change numbers accordingly to make it balanced in PvE. Does it only do 20k dps? Buff the numbers. Does it apply too much alacrity in PvE? Lower the durations. You don't need to take into consideration how much fun the enemy has playing against you.

Right now they are doing the opposite, designing specs after mostly PvE and then the PvP team has to band-aid fix kitten. It's much easier to make things balanced in PvE.

Edited April 7, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[De Bourgogne.9642]

Because PvE is bad in this game in its core design and easy. Anything you achieve in PvE is nothing compared to winning PvP lan events in the past in terms of difficulty. Or lets say winning monthly Automated Tournament vs a raid Challenge mode is a complete joke comparison. 

PvE balance is also very easy, PvP balance is complex. Every class is meta in PvE. Some professions are not meta in PvP (atm Ranger, Mesmer, Warrior, arguably ele depends how strict you are with definition of meta). 

There is literally nothing to talk about in terms of PvE meta for mesmer. Virtuoso is does insane dps with one of the easiest rotations and insane self healing. Mirage does good dmg while providing boons. Chrono does quickness and good dmg. 

[Nezekan.2671]

On 4/5/2022 at 1:23 AM, Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:

Just personal experience from WvW and SPvP but mesmers tend to be that kind of psycopaths that come, ruin your duels at dueling spots and then BM you non stop if you show some sort of solid resistance lol So makes sense they want their toys to remain viable, despite there are so many sleeper builds out there still.
Such classes that have burst and easy ways to reset fights tend to attrack such people I guess.

Mesmer has not been the most annoying class since 2018. You have things like trapper rune DH, immobilize ranger, fear spam core necro and perma stealth deadeye. Stop living in the past and get good. Every class now has ample tools to deal with Memser and if you can't, it's you not the class.

And to answer OP's question, it's not just pvp. Mesmer has also been bad in wvw as well. Other than the utility slave chronomancer, there is no viable build for it in zergs. Virtuoso falls off due to projectile hate and Mirage was never good to begin with. Roaming has also been nerfed. It's playable, but very second tier. PvP is almost a disaster, as with the introduction of new specs for classes, I consider Mesmer to be weakest class in spvp mode. Spectre, Mechanist, Soulbeast, Bladesworn, Herald, Core Guardian, Weaver and Necro as a whole are all better than Mesmer in pvp mode, which is not good.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Nezekan.2671