Why does Caithe outrank me as the Champion of Aurene

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Aedil.1296 said:

I gree with op so much. It shocked me at the neginning of EoD when we got cut off from Aurene's cave in Shing Jea as she was resting and only caithe was allowed in. We count nothing as champion and caithe's bond with Aurene is clearly stronger/deeper as she was even branded. Total nonsense. 

 

Ignoring the fact in the final battle Aurene elevated us to what, demigod status and we casually ate magic the same was as dragons do and became more powerful?

[DanAlcedo.3281]

2 hours ago, Aedil.1296 said:

I gree with op so much. It shocked me at the neginning of EoD when we got cut off from Aurene's cave in Shing Jea as she was resting and only caithe was allowed in. We count nothing as champion and caithe's bond with Aurene is clearly stronger/deeper as she was even branded. Total nonsense. 

The Guild Dragon Watch does not really have a power structure. It's more of a Family structure. 

The characters are family and friends. And when momma Chaithe says our Baby Girl needs rest, then she needs rest. 

The Commander is not God lord all mighty that everyone needs to respect. 

 

[Kalavier.1097]

14 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

The Guild Dragon Watch does not really have a power structure. It's more of a Family structure. 

The characters are family and friends. And when momma Chaithe says our Baby Girl needs rest, then she needs rest. 

The Commander is not God lord all mighty that everyone needs to respect. 

 

 

And it wasn't like there was a bunch of other stuff that needed doing right then. You know... like the Aetherblades being hunted down to be arrested or kitten.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

And it wasn't like there was a bunch of other stuff that needed doing right then. You know... like the Aetherblades being hunted down to be arrested or kitten.

And it's not like we hadn't the IBS that specifically astablished that we In fact are not above Aurene and cannot just force our will on her. (Which extents to Caithe) 

But who is gonna complain about the story without having played it. Right? 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Mahou.3924]

Always funny and facepalming to read how people get all jelly when an NPC is more special snowflake than they are 🤣

See peoples ugly shitposting against Trahearne when he received Caladbolg instead of the player (before the post-HoT event).

[Kalavier.1097]

4 minutes ago, Mahou.3924 said:

Always funny and facepalming to read how people get all jelly when an NPC is more special snowflake than they are 🤣

See peoples ugly shitposting against Trahearne when he received Caladbolg instead of the player (before the post-HoT event).

 

Yeah... I remember the days of "I should've tossed him off the airship at Orr and everybody(the npcs) would've have cheered!" Cause people couldn't bare to share the spotlight at all.

 

Ironic how the players all get Caladbolg in the end

[maxwelgm.4315]

On 4/8/2022 at 6:33 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

And it's not like we hadn't the IBS that specifically astablished that we In fact are not above Aurene and cannot just force our will on her. (Which extents to Caithe) 

But who is gonna complain about the story without having played it. Right? 

 

It was never established we were above Aurene to begin with - IBS never had to address this because it was never said before. This is not close to the topic being discussed either, which is that Caithe is more of a Champion even though the story tried to establish us to have this specific kind of bond to Aurene  - even in collection achievements from when she was a hatchling, to mention one thing. The topic was already addressed though - some people like Konig mentioned Ryland and Bangar and their different roles to Jormag and this is definitely what is going on here. It also did have a lot of foreshadowing (it may not even be foreshadowing due to how explicit it was) that Caithe was going to play an important role to Aurene, at least in - as people also pointed out even though it's not the point - playing the role of caretaker as Aurene grew up.

 

What still won't make sense regardless of how much we understand Caithe is important and the player character is not the only family to Aurene etc etc. is that Aurene would use Caithe like other Elder Dragons do to communicate on that very specific moment even though she could communicate directly to us (either by branding us or showing visions). This is an arbitrary story beat that didn't have to exist for Caithe, Aurene and the commander to remain the same characters they are today, and would not open any questions of consistency of the worldbuilding with Aurene now actually branding a living being the way other Elder Dragons do - quite different from our own bond to her.

 

Then again the details of Aurene's "corruption"/bonding doesn't matter because this happened for character development and the previous LW writers already mentioned they choose characters over the world for narrative importance. It also bears mentioning that Aurene as a character is "family" to the rest of Dragon's Watch but she is also an Elder Dragon - she has things that are particular to her and only her but should also have character traits common to all Elder Dragons, and whatever conflicting traits arise from this dual nature are what makes her unique as keeper of the Balance and could be explored for her character development. So far though Anet seems to have done a bad job of showing she is an Elder Dragon at all (to the point branding Caithe and branding the entirety of the already branded territory was disregarded as cute crystals by everyone after the Charr civil war started), and at least they still have the opportunity to do so if they want to keep her around for the next expansion.

Edited April 11, 2022 by maxwelgm.4315

[DanAlcedo.3281]

25 minutes ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

It was never established we were above Aurene to begin with - IBS never had to address this because it was never said before. This is not close to the topic being discussed either, which is that Caithe is more of a Champion even though the story tried to establish us to have this specific kind of bond to Aurene  - even in collection achievements from when she was a hatchling, to mention one thing. The topic was already addressed though - some people like Konig mentioned Ryland and Bangar and their different roles to Jormag and this is definitely what is going on here. It also did have a lot of foreshadowing (it may not even be foreshadowing due to how explicit it was) that Caithe was going to play an important role to Aurene, at least in - as people also pointed out even though it's not the point - playing the role of caretaker as Aurene grew up.

 

What still won't make sense regardless of how much we understand Caithe is important and the player character is not the only family to Aurene etc etc. is that Aurene would use Caithe like other Elder Dragons do to communicate on that very specific moment even though she could communicate directly to us (either by branding us or showing visions). This is an arbitrary story beat that didn't have to exist for Caithe, Aurene and the commander to remain the same characters they are today, and would not open any questions of consistency of the worldbuilding with Aurene now actually branding a living being the way other Elder Dragons do - quite different from our own bond to her.

 

Then again the details of Aurene's "corruption"/bonding doesn't matter because this happened for character development and the previous LW writers already mentioned they choose characters over the world for narrative importance. It also bears mentioning that Aurene as a character is "family" to the rest of Dragon's Watch but she is also an Elder Dragon - she has things that are particular to her and only her but should also have character traits common to all Elder Dragons, and whatever conflicting traits arise from this dual nature are what makes her unique as keeper of the Balance and could be explored for her character development. So far though Anet seems to have done a bad job of showing she is an Elder Dragon at all (to the point branding Caithe and branding the entirety of the already branded territory was disregarded as cute crystals by everyone after the Charr civil war started), and at least they still have the opportunity to do so if they want to keep her around for the next expansion.

At the very start of IBS, we had say time and time again that we don't control Aurene. That she is her own person. And yes that means we had to tell people we are not above Aurene. 

Caithe was chosen for the role because we can't have the Commander have that roley as we need to be as neutral as possible so the story doesn't force something on the player that conflicts the RP. 

How often do you see people come here and complain as X and Y is not something their commander would do. 

If Aurene branded us, gave us the role of voice. It would cause so many problems. 

Be it Story or just people complaining that the branding wasn't a choice. 

 

And as a last thing. Please take a deep breath and ask yourself if such a minor point is worth it to get so worked up about it that you write a wall of text higher then Aurene can fly. 

Remember that this topic started because OP got triggered by an Npc in a video game. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by DanAlcedo.3281

[maxwelgm.4315]

1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

At the very start of IBS, we had say time and time again that we don't control Aurene. That she is her own person. And yes that means we had to tell people we are not above Aurene. 

Caithe was chosen for the role because we can't have the Commander have that roley as we need to be as neutral as possible so the story doesn't force something on the player that conflicts the RP. 

How often do you see people come here and complain as X and Y is not something their commander would do. 

If Aurene branded us, gave us the role of voice. It would cause so many problems. 

Be it Story or just people complaining that the branding wasn't a choice. 

 

And as a last thing. Please take a deep breath and ask yourself if such a minor point is worth it to get so worked up about it that you write a wall of text higher then Aurene can fly. 

Remember that this topic started because OP got triggered by an Npc in a video game. 

 

Oh the topic is closed to me indeed as I mentioned, it's just like Ryland and Bangar and the writers did not care about the worldbuilding aspect of it - just character development and that's it. As for people telling the commander (in-game) that we control Aurene and we have to keep repeating we do not, I didn't see that as an indirect message to players that she's not our pet or something, and saw it exclusively as a way to put ourselves in unresolvable conflict with Bangar - to us that fact was already since long established by both the collection you get when she was a hatchling and especially established by PoF's storyline and the Long Live the Lich LW episode (where eating Joko was just one of several examples of Aurene asserting herself as her own person, dragon, whatever). But you may be right, I guess they kept hammering this point in even past the point of exhaustion and I just went numb over it.

 

It's also definitely true branding us would be a mess to RP and players would never stop complaining about it. My suggested alternative was to simply have Aurene never brand living beings and act like a proper Tyrian trying to communicate without infusing anyone with magic (like her blood relatives would do so nonchalantly).

 

Finally, I clearly like writing walls of text lmao, I promise I'm not worked over it. But you got a point I should not hijack OP's triggered post for it...

Edited April 11, 2022 by maxwelgm.4315

[genjonah.1253]

I’ll admit that the line in that scene did really bother me, as well, going through it. But it is clear that we are the Champion, not Caithe. 
 

as for the ‘branding’ issue- yes, I absolutely do NOT want the PC to have that shoehorned onto them. However, as an alternative, I wouldn’t mind a side quest similar to the Caldbolg/Knight of the Thorn thing that ended up giving you an infusion that gave a branded cosmetic aura. I think that would be the way to approach it, it’s limited to one per account, completely optional sort of thing. Try and give a way in story that they can turn it off somehow (for when you unequip it) idk just an idea

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 4/8/2022 at 4:09 AM, Aedil.1296 said:

I gree with op so much. It shocked me at the neginning of EoD when we got cut off from Aurene's cave in Shing Jea as she was resting and only caithe was allowed in. We count nothing as champion and caithe's bond with Aurene is clearly stronger/deeper as she was even branded. Total nonsense. 

Yes, that's why Caithe is able to go demigod mode and we aren't. Oh wait.

[Mithrilos.8036]

ARRRG Someone finaly said it and made a topic !

 I "hate" Caithe so much as character. Its not like I'm jalous or anything it is just that there is a few things that really bugs me out.

I mean, we could share Aurene, I'm totally fine with that. BUT :

- The whole story is kind of leading the player toward Guarding Aurene and develloping a special bond with her.

Yet, Caithe is just loling around imposing herself in that role of "parent" instead of being naturally chosen. Remember that she litterally stole the Egg in front of us selfishly doing her thing, while it was our care, our new role.

And then there is that scene where the whole group is starting doubting of Aurene's behavior, and here I was expecting our character to defend her, but no, again Anet, did it with the Caithe thing : She went forward and literally went branded. I understand the difficulty here, couldn't have our character branded for the sake of story. Because you can't change the skin of the player just like you can do it to a npc.

 

So yeah I don't mind Caithe, but the way she was introduced into the dual parenting thing. She imposed herself to us, were we litteraly were choosen to do the job. Even had to die for it...

[Kalavier.1097]

9 hours ago, Mithrilos.8036 said:

- The whole story is kind of leading the player toward Guarding Aurene and develloping a special bond with her.

Yet, Caithe is just loling around imposing herself in that role of "parent" instead of being naturally chosen. Remember that she litterally stole the Egg in front of us selfishly doing her thing, while it was our care, our new role.

 

To be fair. A: The egg was not in our care yet at the time. B: She had a wyld hunt to protect to egg above all else, and that overrode her instincts. wyld hunts can be incredibly powerful urges for Sylvari. Combo with shortly afterward Mordremoth rose and then she had this powerful Wyld Hunt and his voice bouncing back and forth, she was very confused.

 

9 hours ago, Mithrilos.8036 said:

And then there is that scene where the whole group is starting doubting of Aurene's behavior, and here I was expecting our character to defend her, but no, again Anet, did it with the Caithe thing : She went forward and literally went branded. I understand the difficulty here, couldn't have our character branded for the sake of story. Because you can't change the skin of the player just like you can do it to a npc.

 

As I recall, that scene had everybody talking back and forth and then Caithe went over, accepting Aurene's brand as a means to connect to her directly and communicate verbally. Meanwhile before, the Commander and Aurene had an existing bond that was pretty deep and even let us share visions? But it wasn't a sort that allowed straight up talking to each other.

 

IIRC, we did defend her, while others were scared or doubting. It's just Caithe allowed herself to be transformed to allow Aurene to talk.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Season 2 was the main thing that made it hard for me to like Caithe, don't really care about how she's depicted later. 

[Kalavier.1097]

The real problem was with Heart of Thorns having an arc or two cut out/storylines rearranged, it caused this whiplash of mood.

 

The commander goes from not caring about Caithe, focusing on the Pact to "WHERE CAITHE?" then they get the egg, get it to safety. When asked about Caithe, they just shrug and go "Eh, she'll show up. She always does." in a very neutral tone.

But then she does show up and the Commander suddenly flips and basically tells Braham to pulp her if she breaths the wrong way.

 

Like there was explicitly some story beat that meant to cause this severe flip in attitude, that never happens ingame and so it's jarring as hell.

[dusanyu.4057]

main reason we did not get any changes is many people would have complained.  while you can earn a Glowy Aurine inspired tricked by doing all the "return to" achievements it does feel like something that should have been a Epilogue item for the whole Dragon ark  that a item for grinding the heck out of Living world for a second time.  i suspect if you paired that trinket with the Aurine legendary weapons  you would copy the look we had in the last mission.

 

but honestly we did get shafted on the "champion glow" and the choice to keep it

Edited April 13, 2022 by dusanyu.4057

[Firebird Gomer.9563]

I'm Sorry. I really do hate Caithe. If she had stolen the egg from me in real life..... Well I wouldn't disagree with the policy enacted in the Saudi Arabian states.... Also I wouldn't have forgiven her after a lousy conversation. She would have been told to P.O. and the Exalted would have been told to not let her near Aurene EVER. Someone else could take the role of Mouth. Kasmeer would have been great. LOL Rytlock would be better than Caithe!

Again with the Branded/Bloomed idea, an Infusion or an Outfit earned in-game for free would have worked well for both people who WANT to show they are Aurene's Champion and those who don't want to show it. You don't have to use it or wear it. But for the RP's that want to they could.

[Mithrilos.8036]

On 4/13/2022 at 2:27 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

To be fair. A: The egg was not in our care yet at the time. B: She had a wyld hunt to protect to egg above all else, and that overrode her instincts. wyld hunts can be incredibly powerful urges for Sylvari. Combo with shortly afterward Mordremoth rose and then she had this powerful Wyld Hunt and his voice bouncing back and forth, she was very confused.

 

 

As I recall, that scene had everybody talking back and forth and then Caithe went over, accepting Aurene's brand as a means to connect to her directly and communicate verbally. Meanwhile before, the Commander and Aurene had an existing bond that was pretty deep and even let us share visions? But it wasn't a sort that allowed straight up talking to each other.

 

IIRC, we did defend her, while others were scared or doubting. It's just Caithe allowed herself to be transformed to allow Aurene to talk.

Yep and this is exactly here that our character was supposed to say something and confront the group with Caithe.

But again, Can't let our character being branded, so I understand why it is Caithe that act as "voice" instead of us.

But still, it feel like we were too latent even when the whole group started to doubt of Aurene.

EDIT : I need to replay again that scene because I don't remember our character opposing the group.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Mithrilos.8036

[Mithrilos.8036]

Also about the Wild Hunt part, I understand that, I played a main sylvari for a long time. 

But somehow remember that its litterally the Pale Tree that gave us our mission, like it could be the Dream itself. quite Wild Hunt-ish if you ask me.

I'm still think that Caith kind of imposed herself and bring herself the role of "parent" when she hasn't done really much to be honest. Alright, Aurene likes her and now she is bonded with her, fine. But that all when a bit fast with nothing much leading toward it, it kinda imposed itelf to us. 

 

And now in the end of EoD, Caith litterally said to us that we won't see Aurene much from now on ans she will get more independent etc. So in the end everything is fine. I just hope that Anet will stop messing with Caithe because fliping the character's behavior too much and it becomes difficult to understand-trust-accept. I miss Trahaern, at least he wasn't as impulsive...

PS: Also there is that whole new order that main purpose is to protect Aurene. Thanks to Caithe probably, why would it be called Cristal flower then eh...

So now we even got competion for our own role ?

[Tom.8029]

I think part of this is that Caithe seemed to have been given a new Wyld Hunt after the defeat of Zhaitan, to be the caretaker of the egg. I agree she didn’t do nearly as much as we did. She seems to have been compelled to soldier her way into importance and into a position close to Aurene to fulfill that role. 

[Kalavier.1097]

19 hours ago, Tom.8029 said:

I think part of this is that Caithe seemed to have been given a new Wyld Hunt after the defeat of Zhaitan, to be the caretaker of the egg. I agree she didn’t do nearly as much as we did. She seems to have been compelled to soldier her way into importance and into a position close to Aurene to fulfill that role. 

 

The Wyld hunt didn't kick in until she was at the egg really. That's why she suddenly went all weird.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

The Wyld hunt didn't kick in until she was at the end really. That's why she suddenly went all weird.

Depending on what you mean by "until she was at the end", it definitely seemed in place during Tangled Paths when she took immediate interest in joining us for the dragon egg and then shortly after took it.

There was of course a two year gap between Zhaitan's death and then. The sylvari PC's renewed Wyld Hunt only kicked in during The World Summit.

Bit sad there was no continuation of that for sylvari PCs for Kralk or the others - does that mean the sylvari PC's Wyld Hunt was actually to kill Mordremoth, not Zhaitan, all this time? It was Mender Serimon and the Pale Tree who claimed the Shadow of the Dragon vision meant killing Zhaitan, and in the S2/HoT era, Scott McGough said in an interview that sylvari can "trick themselves" into believing a Wyld Hunt ended when it hadn't...

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Depending on what you mean by "until she was at the end", it definitely seemed in place during Tangled Paths when she took immediate interest in joining us for the dragon egg and then shortly after took it.

There was of course a two year gap between Zhaitan's death and then. The sylvari PC's renewed Wyld Hunt only kicked in during The World Summit.

Bit sad there was no continuation of that for sylvari PCs for Kralk or the others - does that mean the sylvari PC's Wyld Hunt was actually to kill Mordremoth, not Zhaitan, all this time? It was Mender Serimon and the Pale Tree who claimed the Shadow of the Dragon vision meant killing Zhaitan, and in the S2/HoT era, Scott McGough said in an interview that sylvari can "trick themselves" into believing a Wyld Hunt ended when it hadn't...

 

Meant egg,  for Caithe. Was tired as hell at the time and mistyped.

[Ashantara.8731]

On 4/5/2022 at 5:18 PM, Firebird Gomer.9563 said:

[...] while Caithe is a dirty little egg thief that has never been held accountable.....

Think about it.

You missed the whole part of her mind being influenced by Mordremoth? It was not her fault she was mixing up her Wyld Hunt beliefs with the distrust Mordremoth's voice was putting in her head under those circumstances. She wasn't fully herself. (And she explained and apologized for it, so no idea why you are still holding it against her.)

Anyway, back on topic: Caithe is occupying the spot of the dragon's "mother", if you so like -- that's why she is behaving that way. And why did she get "crystal bloomed" and not us? Because, as a firtborn sylvari, she has a special connection to a dragon's mind that we don't have, to the Mordremoth part in Aurene in particular, which is why she became her voice when Aurene still couldn't talk to us. Saving Aurene and caring for her is her Wyld Hunt after all.

The Champion's role is completely different from that. We were never Aurene's "babysitter" nor "mother."
 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[Amanda Whitemoon.6173]

makes me think, does the Dream and Wyld Hunts maybe come from Soo-Won?,  ben then again, why would she give sylvari PC a wyld hunt to kill her children