Dear ANet: Please Re-work the Sword

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

@Cal Cohen.3527 @Josh Davis.7865

 

As you begin work on the balance changes to come at the end of June, I wanted to offer a few suggestions for improving the sword.

 

Why the sword?  Well, lots of reasons, but here are a few of the most compelling:

1.) Warrior desperately needs mobility, and sword is the only weapon outside of GS to provide any meaningful mobility.  When sword ISN'T used, GS almost always is.   Unfortunately, main hand sword currently offers very little apart from the mobility on Savage Leap; its offense is paltry and it has no defense, either.  Making sword better opens up an alternative to GS (or an addition to it for even better mobility).

 

2.) Warrior is sadly lacking in condi options.  Sword is supposed to be Warrior's melee condi weapon, but it severely underperforms in this role (except on Berserker, and that's only because Flaming Flurry is an amazing skill that carries the whole weapon set).   Making Sword more viable in terms of condi application could open up condi variants of Core and Spellbreaker, and that would be a very refreshing change for the profession.

 

3.) Sword's effectiveness could be massively improved with only a handful of relatively minor changes.  I know your resources are spread thin enough as it is, and you've already mentioned a banner rework is on the way, so this would be something that could be done without too much additional investment on your part.

 

So with no further ado, let's get into it! [Please note: there are plenty of things that *could* be changed; my goal here is to make the most profound improvements in the fewest changes possible.]

 

Savage Leap: Reduce CD to 6s.

Warrior desperately needs mobility to compete with other classes.  War has no teleports (outside of BS in DT, and those are only 300 range), almost no super speed (except Feather foot grace), and even relatively low Swiftness uptime compared to other classes (unless you're running Warhorn).   War relies on movement skills to engage and escape.  Savage Leap is already a pretty good skill, but making the CD a little bit lower would give Warrior just that much more ability to stick to targets or disengage from losing fights.

 

Final Thrust: Reduce cast time to 1/2s.  Keep current power damage but let it inflict 3 stacks of bleeding when the target is >50% and 6 stacks of bleeding when <50%

FT is currently extremely situational, and its short range and lengthy cast time mean you usually need to CC the target to land it.  And as a condi weapon, it only applies condi when the target is <50% health...this makes no sense.  Further, even though the power damage can be significant, it is no higher than Dual Strike (in competitive modes) and DS executes in 1/2s and does its damage regardless of the target's health.  Oh, and it grants quickness, too.  Reducing the cast time of FT brings it in line with DS and essentially makes it worth using whenever it is available, even if the target is > 50% health.  This will significantly increase the offensive potential of mainhand sword.

 

Impale: make it immobilize for 4s and apply all 5 stacks of torment on hit (instead of slowly pulsing over 4s).  Keep Rip as it is.

Changing the cripple to immobilize makes sense for many reasons. 

1.) it synergizes with the Opportunist trait in Arms. 

2.) it synergizes with the torment applied. 

3.) it facilitates attempting Rip.  Moreover, currently you have to choose between letting the torment/cripple increase over time vs the power damage from Rip.  With these proposed changes, you can have both!  This would make Impale AND Rip useful for condi and power builds alike.

4.) it helps Warrior address being kited--one of War's greatest weaknesses--by locking down fleeing targets.

 

"But 4s of immobilize is too long!"  Ever fought a druid?  At least this immobilize wouldn't pulse.  It would be strong, sure, but readily counterable and much less toxic than our druid/ranger counterparts.

"But 5 stacks of torment is too much!"  Harbinger.  Go fight a Harbinger.  5 stacks is nothing.

 

Riposte: Make this a 2s channeled block (20s CD).  If you block an attack, may attempt a riposte (flip- over skill like Ranger's Counterattack Kick on GS).  Same damage/bleeding as it currently does. Hits 3 targets.

This provides a much-needed alternative to Shield--with a condi twist!  A player-initiated riposte opens up much more skill-based play and improves OH Sword's cleave ability

 

Many people would rightly point out that one of Sword's main failings as a condi weapon is that is primarily just inflicts bleeding (the weakest condi in the game), that it has to inflict that condi in melee range, and that it has very little cover condi to keep opponents from easily cleansing however much bleeding you stack.  These are all fair criticisms, but they probably can't be corrected without completely re-working the Sword, which I am trying to avoid.  But I may have found a work-around.....

 

Bloodlust [minor trait in Arms]: Change this to Steal health when you inflict bleeding (125 life siphon damage; 100 life siphon healing).  

Changing this trait will carry Sword.  The extra damage from life siphon will help make up for the weakness of the bleeding/torment sword applies.  This would be seen especially with Flurry; Warriors have complained about the self-root for a very long time.  The self-root will still be annoying, but being able to proc 11x Life Siphon hits will give this skill significant added value, especially if coupled with Dual Wield so it hits faster.   It would be worth CC'ing a target to land a good Flurry now.  

 

Moreover, this provides a sustain mechanic that is currently absent from Arms; having a sustain mechanic will make Arms much more viable as a whole.

 

As always, thanks for reading!  I hope this has provided some helpful food for thought!

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

The suggestion for FT is one that has been made numerous times in the past and is a change that the devs should strongly consider doing.

For Impale/Rip I agree. The way that slot functions now is way too 2012 in a 2022 era. You're right that 4s of immob is nothing now, and being in 1 pulse is easy to negate. Five stacks of torment that are not even spamable is nothing, see condi Rev and Harbinger for reasons why.

Riposte being made to function like the Ranger Counterattack/Kick is another change that we've been requesting for a while, and like the FT suggestion is a change the devs should strongly consider doing.

All that said. I'll reiterate my thoughts on Wounding Precision and Unsuspecting Foe. WP should inflict torment either when bleed is inflicted, or on a %chance on a critical hit. UF should apply confusion when striking CCd foes. We had Confusions tied to CC originally, but not in a way that made any sort of sense, this way makes sense though.

Life steal on bleed would be cool.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The suggestion for FT is one that has been made numerous times in the past and is a change that the devs should strongly consider doing.

For Impale/Rip I agree. The way that slot functions now is way too 2012 in a 2022 era. You're right that 4s of immob is nothing now, and being in 1 pulse is easy to negate. Five stacks of torment that are not even spamable is nothing, see condi Rev and Harbinger for reasons why.

Riposte being made to function like the Ranger Counterattack/Kick is another change that we've been requesting for a while, and like the FT suggestion is a change the devs should strongly consider doing.

All that said. I'll reiterate my thoughts on Wounding Precision and Unsuspecting Foe. WP should inflict torment either when bleed is inflicted, or on a %chance on a critical hit. UF should apply confusion when striking CCd foes. We had Confusions tied to CC originally, but not in a way that made any sort of sense, this way makes sense though.

Life steal on bleed would be cool.

I definitely like the Wounding Precision and Unsuspecting Foe ideas. Anything to give (core) warrior better condi application other than just bleed.

[Fueki.4753]

I'd love for both of Warrior's swords to get better, especially in regards to condition application.

Arenanet has been pushing conditions far too hard over the last years, but Warrior has been left to rot in the dust.

Arenanet needs to give some reasonable buffs to Warrior mains - and those of us would want to be Warrior mains - instead of always taking away too much and only giving back pittances.

These changes seem like they could be one of said reasonable buffs.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Duglaive.5236]

 

I sincerely applaud and admire the time, effort, thought, and articulation the two of you (and others on this sub-forum) bring to the Warrior community. I really love these ideas; sword could certainly use such improvements to its utility and gameplay.

 

What I perhaps admire more, however, is your continued optimism to do so. I still play my warrior - and enjoy him when I do - but hope for real, net positive changes for this class? 

 

Yeah, no 😞

[Opopanax.1803]

On 4/7/2022 at 9:14 PM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 @Josh Davis.7865

 

As you begin work on the balance changes to come at the end of June, I wanted to offer a few suggestions for improving the sword.

 

Why the sword?  Well, lots of reasons, but here are a few of the most compelling:

1.) Warrior desperately needs mobility, and sword is the only weapon outside of GS to provide any meaningful mobility.  When sword ISN'T used, GS almost always is.   Unfortunately, main hand sword currently offers very little apart from the mobility on Savage Leap; its offense is paltry and it has no defense, either.  Making sword better opens up an alternative to GS (or an addition to it for even better mobility).

 

2.) Warrior is sadly lacking in condi options.  Sword is supposed to be Warrior's melee condi weapon, but it severely underperforms in this role (except on Berserker, and that's only because Flaming Flurry is an amazing skill that carries the whole weapon set).   Making Sword more viable in terms of condi application could open up condi variants of Core and Spellbreaker, and that would be a very refreshing change for the profession.

 

3.) Sword's effectiveness could be massively improved with only a handful of relatively minor changes.  I know your resources are spread thin enough as it is, and you've already mentioned a banner rework is on the way, so this would be something that could be done without too much additional investment on your part.

 

So with no further ado, let's get into it! [Please note: there are plenty of things that *could* be changed; my goal here is to make the most profound improvements in the fewest changes possible.]

 

Savage Leap: Reduce CD to 6s.

Warrior desperately needs mobility to compete with other classes.  War has no teleports (outside of BS in DT, and those are only 300 range), almost no super speed (except Feather foot grace), and even relatively low Swiftness uptime compared to other classes (unless you're running Warhorn).   War relies on movement skills to engage and escape.  Savage Leap is already a pretty good skill, but making the CD a little bit lower would give Warrior just that much more ability to stick to targets or disengage from losing fights.

 

Final Thrust: Reduce cast time to 1/2s.  Keep current power damage but let it inflict 3 stacks of bleeding when the target is >50% and 6 stacks of bleeding when <50%

FT is currently extremely situational, and its short range and lengthy cast time mean you usually need to CC the target to land it.  And as a condi weapon, it only applies condi when the target is <50% health...this makes no sense.  Further, even though the power damage can be significant, it is no higher than Dual Strike (in competitive modes) and DS executes in 1/2s and does its damage regardless of the target's health.  Oh, and it grants quickness, too.  Reducing the cast time of FT brings it in line with DS and essentially makes it worth using whenever it is available, even if the target is > 50% health.  This will significantly increase the offensive potential of mainhand sword.

 

Impale: make it immobilize for 4s and apply all 5 stacks of torment on hit (instead of slowly pulsing over 4s).  Keep Rip as it is.

Changing the cripple to immobilize makes sense for many reasons. 

1.) it synergizes with the Opportunist trait in Arms. 

2.) it synergizes with the torment applied. 

3.) it facilitates attempting Rip.  Moreover, currently you have to choose between letting the torment/cripple increase over time vs the power damage from Rip.  With these proposed changes, you can have both!  This would make Impale AND Rip useful for condi and power builds alike.

4.) it helps Warrior address being kited--one of War's greatest weaknesses--by locking down fleeing targets.

 

"But 4s of immobilize is too long!"  Ever fought a druid?  At least this immobilize wouldn't pulse.  It would be strong, sure, but readily counterable and much less toxic than our druid/ranger counterparts.

"But 5 stacks of torment is too much!"  Harbinger.  Go fight a Harbinger.  5 stacks is nothing.

 

Riposte: Make this a 2s channeled block (20s CD).  If you block an attack, may attempt a riposte (flip- over skill like Ranger's Counterattack Kick on GS).  Same damage/bleeding as it currently does. Hits 3 targets.

This provides a much-needed alternative to Shield--with a condi twist!  A player-initiated riposte opens up much more skill-based play and improves OH Sword's cleave ability

 

Many people would rightly point out that one of Sword's main failings as a condi weapon is that is primarily just inflicts bleeding (the weakest condi in the game), that it has to inflict that condi in melee range, and that it has very little cover condi to keep opponents from easily cleansing however much bleeding you stack.  These are all fair criticisms, but they probably can't be corrected without completely re-working the Sword, which I am trying to avoid.  But I may have found a work-around.....

 

Bloodlust [minor trait in Arms]: Change this to Steal health when you inflict bleeding (125 life siphon damage; 100 life siphon healing).  

Changing this trait will carry Sword.  The extra damage from life siphon will help make up for the weakness of the bleeding/torment sword applies.  This would be seen especially with Flurry; Warriors have complained about the self-root for a very long time.  The self-root will still be annoying, but being able to proc 11x Life Siphon hits will give this skill significant added value, especially if coupled with Dual Wield so it hits faster.   It would be worth CC'ing a target to land a good Flurry now.  

 

Moreover, this provides a sustain mechanic that is currently absent from Arms; having a sustain mechanic will make Arms much more viable as a whole.

 

As always, thanks for reading!  I hope this has provided some helpful food for thought!

I like sword a lot, but it lacks a couple things.  Contrary to some, I think it just needs some tweaks to get it up to par.

1.  MH sword F1 needs to be unrooted.  This is swords biggest issue.  If that means that it loses immobilize and gets cripple instead, so be it, but it must be unrooted for this weapon to be worth its salt. 

2. MH sword also lacks in condi damage.... bleeds just dont do enough.  I'm not sure that just turning some of them into Torment is the best solution... I'd rather have something like Final Thrust be turned into Flaming Thrust and add burning to keep with a more warrior-ish theme.

I actually think the CD on Savage leap is fine.

Auto chain could use a little help for a slight damage boost.

 

That's all i'd do to start with.  We dont want it all messed up, imo.  

OH sword needs help too, but again, I'd get rid of torment and go the burning route because it is more warrior-ish.  

However, after seeing the elite we got after all of the forum posting... another melee dps... I really honestly truly would not hold your breath.  

[eXruina.4956]

you do know, given their track record, they'll probably just make it worse.

 

just as soon as they finish buffing and nerfing warhorn, AGAIN. xD

[Fueki.4753]

9 hours ago, eXruina.4956 said:

just as soon as they finish buffing and nerfing warhorn, AGAIN. xD

Don't forget the upcoming change of the Banners, that'll likely replace the unique effects with subpar boon application.

[Guyver.1426]

I like warrior using sword too.   I think MH skills are ok. Skill 1 for cripple,  skill 2 for movement,  and skill 3 can make 10k damage (full  berserk gear and scholar runes on my warrior),  but OH skills are like nothing.

[Smoosh.2718]

17 minutes ago, Guyver.1426 said:

I like warrior using sword too.   I think MH skills are ok. Skill 1 for cripple,  skill 2 for movement,  and skill 3 can make 10k damage (full  berserk gear and scholar runes on my warrior),  but OH skills are like nothing.

I'd love to agree, however, Sword two sometimes fails to even register the actual hit, Sword 3 can sometimes suffer with precast delay and aftercast delay, it also feels like sword 3 needs a very slight leap / dash added into it so you are 'putting all your force' into the thrust.

Oh believe me I would love to have played with the offhand skills if Pistol was mainhand... But yes Sword offhand feels out of place and illfitting to warrior due to how situational it actually is.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Can we make FTs range longer? 

I mean we extend our arms as much as we can + sword length. 

Would be an awesome finisher. 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Give FT a 240 range fast dash. And I mean actually fast, not like adding in the kick animation. Would become a movement skill then and a leap finisher.

[Guyver.1426]

On 4/9/2022 at 1:16 PM, Opopanax.1803 said:

1.  MH sword F1 needs to be unrooted.  This is swords biggest issue.  If that means that it loses immobilize and gets cripple instead, so be it, but it must be unrooted for this weapon to be worth its salt.

 

Once MH sword F1's immobile happens, swap to GS HB.  The debuff still exists.  If it changes to cripple, I think it'll be a loss more than gain.

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, Guyver.1426 said:

Once MH sword F1's immobile happens, swap to GS HB.  The debuff still exists.  If it changes to cripple, I think it'll be a loss more than gain.

If Hundred Toothbrushes lost its self-root as well, then cripple on Sword Burst would fine in that scenario.

Not that such a positive change will ever happen.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Duglaive.5236]

2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

 Hundred Toothbrushes 

 

LOL 😄

 

On a serious note, your second sentence certainly rings true.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

You mean Hundred Tickles?

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Man, playing against competent condi builds like Harbinger, Mesmer, and condi rangers make you realize just how deficient War's own condi weapons are.  We shouldn't have to depend on Berserker burst skills to have any meaningful condi presence.

 

#MakeSwordGreatAgain

#OKMaybeForTheFirstTime

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Bump 

 

@Josh Davis.7865 @Cal Cohen.2358

 

Please consider reworking the sword in your upcoming patches. The changes suggested here would be very easy to implement and could greatly expand warrior gameplay. We need more than just banners to be reworked, my friends! 

[Mungrul.9358]

Heh, at this stage, I think it'd be quicker to list the weapons that have few to no problems:

Axe/Axe.

 

FIX EVERYTHING ELSE.

[eXruina.4956]

the self root of hundred blades wasn't fine back when it did damage and was rewarding.

 

now its just another broken piece among the many broken pieces.

 

and flurry has always been 💩

 

honestly sword main hand is fine, except for flurry,

 

sword offhand clearly needs a rework, or a big buff to put it on the map.

 

its wishful thinking, all these people posting weapon reworks, i don't think any of the weapons are going to get any attention. theyre spinning a narrative and focus on banners and crit trait in arms. 

 

based on the development roadmap they posted. none of warriror's real problems are going to get addressed.

 

still i wish you all the best of luck 🤞 and that i am wrong.

 

but given their history, ya'll maybe just wasting your time.

 

i mean if they really wanted to theres always the omnibus.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

21 minutes ago, eXruina.4956 said:

the self root of hundred blades wasn't fine back when it did damage and was rewarding.

 

now its just another broken piece among the many broken pieces.

 

and flurry has always been 💩

 

honestly sword main hand is fine, except for flurry,

 

sword offhand clearly needs a rework, or a big buff to put it on the map.

 

its wishful thinking, all these people posting weapon reworks, i don't think any of the weapons are going to get any attention. theyre spinning a narrative and focus on banners and crit trait in arms. 

 

based on the development roadmap they posted. none of warriror's real problems are going to get addressed.

 

still i wish you all the best of luck 🤞 and that i am wrong.

 

but given their history, ya'll maybe just wasting your time.

 

i mean if they really wanted to theres always the omnibus.

Yeah, but theory crafting is fun for me 🙃

[Super Hayes.6890]

I really want a sword/sheild warrior and sometimes I run it anyway. Thankfully I have a jade bot to res me now when I do...

Edited July 7, 2022 by Super Hayes.6890
spelling

[eXruina.4956]

14 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Yeah, but theory crafting is fun for me 🙃

yes and don't ever stop, you're all very cool to be able to still push on the way you do. 🙂 i hope your ideas push through 🤞

[oscuro.9720]

I personally hate sword. I can’t exactly put my finger on WHY, I just don’t like playing it, and as such, am not in a position to suggest changes imo. 
 

So I have a question for you Storm; What would you do with the F1? It’s always seemed like a skill that’s been left behind, what would your recommendation be?

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

50 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I personally hate sword. I can’t exactly put my finger on WHY, I just don’t like playing it, and as such, am not in a position to suggest changes imo. 
 

So I have a question for you Storm; What would you do with the F1? It’s always seemed like a skill that’s been left behind, what would your recommendation be?

My friend, you must give condizerker a try! Flaming flurry is such a great skill and the play style is tons of fun (and lots of room for high IQ plays b/c you're managing your fire auras for king of fires procs, timing your reflects, baiting dodges to land your skull grinders... So good!).

 

Anyway, to answer your question, here are a few takes (note that they are not mutually exclusive; indeed I would recommend all 3 in my dream scenario):

 

1) the bloodlust trait I proposed (life siphon on bleed) would make Flurry worth using a CC to land, even in it's current state. It already does Ok power dmg, and if you tacked on an additional 1375 dmg (11 bleeds x 125 siphon dmg per hit) from the trait, plus the bleeding itself, AND factored in that you're healing yourself 1100 HP while doing so... That's a pretty good deal.

 

2.) The immobilize should be applied if ANY of the strikes land, not just the first attack. This allows it to still be effective even if the channel is partially derailed by blind, aegis, evasion, etc.

 

3.) I would ideally unroot Flurry by just using the animation for flaming flurry instead (without the fireballs, of course).

 

The combination of these things would make Flurry at least a decent skill, and probably a very good one.

 

ALTERNATIVE TAKE:

move Flurry (level 1 version, preferably unrooted as described above) to Sword 3.

 

New Burst: Final thrust

450 range leap finisher

3/4s cast

Same power dmg as it currently does (both above and below 50%); same at all adrenaline levels.

Applies bleeding: 

Level 1: 3 stacks (6s) if target above 50%; 6 stacks if below

Level 2: 4 stacks (8s) /8 stacks

Level 3: 5 stacks (10s) /10 stacks

 

This is what I really want to see. This would be SO much fun to use.  Channel your inner Saito and let loose!

 

https://youtu.be/8OAjKqcID4M

Edited July 7, 2022 by CalmTheStorm.2364
Changed link