Are balance changes too much at once?

[Valisha.8650]

Things like last sustain nerf or Catalyst nerf (and then buff again, lol) make me consider - Is anet doing too many changes in a single patch? Such approach reminds me more of MOBA games, where every players owns a dozen of characters, and can always just play few matches to buy new one if their main or two get nerfed.

In MMORPG's like GW2, it takes a lot of time to make, level, gear and learn a character. Even if you decide to spend 20$ on a gemstore booster, you still get a character with wrong gear prefix (least they could do is make them stat-selectable for those who pay) and without any AR.

Maybe it is just me, but I really do feel like balance team should restrain itself from drastic changes in a single patch, and instead shift to "small changes over time with more patches" philosophy.

Especially since things that actually COULD use drastic changes apparently have been put in some dark corner and forgotten - herald, spellbreaker, untamed.

Feel free to discuss.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

I mean, most of the patches we get are a waste of time to begin with and so frequency isn’t what matters, it’s the quality.

 

So I disagree with your change in philosophy. It doesn’t address the real, actual issues…like the issue that you spent time, money, energy on a build that got nerfed into uselessness/irrelevancy.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Valisha.8650]

4 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I mean, most of the patches we get are a waste of time to begin with and so frequency isn’t what matters, it’s the quality.

 

So I disagree with your change in philosophy. It doesn’t address the real, actual issues…like the issue that you spent time, money, energy on a build that got nerfed into uselessness/irrelevancy.

 

 

I agree. However, if they started to actually listen to players, slower changes could allow for preventing too much bad changes to be thrown into game - If community noticed some nerfs or buffs are going way too downhill, they could stop it with loud enough forum outbreak.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

13 minutes ago, Valisha.8650 said:

I agree. However, if they started to actually listen to players, slower changes could allow for preventing too much bad changes to be thrown into game - If community noticed some nerfs or buffs are going way too downhill, they could stop it with loud enough forum outbreak.

That’s rather circular reasoning. You want slower patch cadence, so that players can identify problem changes faster(?) in order to have subsequent patches fix those problems faster thus resulting in a faster patch cadence?

 

Aside from my indifference toward the frequency of patches, I also think “being loud” on the forum has shown to be nothing more than detrimental to this game…possibly one of the bigger reasons it’s been in decline for the last 3 years. I’d much rather not let a Twitter-Hash-Tag mob, a Twitch Streamer or private discord party of elitists decide the ruleset of the game. 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Puck.3697]

Disagreed. 

Imho what Anet have done so far is actually the most promising thing they've done in years. 

Getting things wrong is fine, when the reaction is as swift as it was with catalyst. And now catalyst feels ALOT better. People seem to not reliese. 

Originally catalyst was a Pve only choice, then it become a benched choice. Now it's good in both PvE and PvP. 

The orginal nerfs allowed way for buffs in other parts of the proffession which made it easier to play, more capable in open world content at the same time as making it stronger in more game modes. 

It was actually insanely good changes 

[The Boz.2038]

No.
Need more.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

They did good in correcting the catalyst.

Meanwhile Bladesworn is garbage and is only held up by Tactical Reload and they are so far doubling down on it.

[Puck.3697]

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

They did good in correcting the catalyst.

Meanwhile Bladesworn is garbage and is only held up by Tactical Reload and they are so far doubling down on it.

tbh, bladesworns Really good. its Just Not a Warrior. it thematically just doesnt fit the bill. its not enjoyable... Like Spellbreaker.

the shout build in PvP Content does REALLY well in both teamfights and duelling, its Puts out ALOT of damage, and has some strong options in gameplay which work really well, in Open world it provides a really good solo build, while also in Raids it does have its stengths and fights where it deos really well.. .but it mimics Berserkers role.. which doesnt make it feel very seperate in choice realistically.

Bladesworns Problem is the fact its bladesworn, not the fact its Not strong. It lacks the Warrior feeling and Feels more alike a Kinship for Engineers who dont like AI. Its thematically far from the concepts people want from Warrior, but its Not weak by any stretch of imagination in ALOT Of content.

i think.. bladesworn is just a Mile off the demand as a Concept and i think thats the primary problem here, it solves None of warriors core problems and Just doubles down on roles the proffession already had.

- Lack of Good Ranged Options for the proffession.

- Another Duellist.

- Once again a Banner Slave Support.

- Melee Pistol still leaves Warrior without a Offhand option to fight against shield in Competitive Modes.

- Another Power based Primary DPS.

it Just doesnt fit the demand. it isnt bad, it isnt awful. it does its job well and tbh pretty kitten strong, its just not what the Warrior community.. its one of the few Elites i'd honestly say completely misread the audience.

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[KeoLegend.5132]

i don't care about harshness, as long as balances are on fixed dates.

Like a big balance every 3 months is great, so they can mess with a LOT of stuff during their balances because i know that if the change is for the worst, i'll only have to wait ~3 months

[oscuro.9720]

No, I don’t think so. 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

There is a risk in doing balance patches in big batches.  Many balance changes are under the reference frame of current game balance.  Having a big balance patch changes that frame completely.  This leads to overnerfs and overbuffs.  

[Dawdler.8521]

Anet has been over/undercompensating balancing for 10 years. Every time the community says "this skill does too much damage, nerf by 20%?" Anet doubles the cd and nerf the damage 66% or something similar. And once they "fix" something, they rarely make further balancing on it unless absolutely forced to.

Just as a reminder, Anet buffed the reaper to the skies and singlehandedly created the DC condi meta which wrecked havoc on WvW for 8 kittening months before they nerfed it again... like 2 weeks after PoF released and literally EVERYONE had already stopped playing reaper in favor of the far stronger scourge.

[felix.2386]

19 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

tbh, bladesworns Really good.

 

wrong, bladesworn is garbage and is not play tested.

you think it is good, it is only carried by abnormal amount of healing it has, everything else is garbage.

it is just over sustaining enemies on lower level, a typical tanky low effort bunker build, if you go against another one of those useless builds from other classes, it will just become an endless battle, with no winners, with basically 0 outplay potential.

 

while spellbreaker, can outplay and bust these low effort toxic bunker builds, which is a true duelist build that can help team in a meaningful way, by actually busting bunker builds and taking the point.

 

and you can tell how this spec had 0 play test, without shoutheal, the spec will become unplayable, the damage increase is so minimum and class traits/utilities have very little interaction with this spec.

Edited April 9, 2022 by felix.2386

[solemace.8427]

On 4/8/2022 at 7:02 AM, Valisha.8650 said:

In MMORPG's like GW2, it takes a lot of time to make, level, gear and learn a character.

GW2 has a pretty unique scenario going on. People have legendary gear making gearing a character not a problem for many. On leveling, people already have characters leveled for classes they already play. 250 hero points is all that stands between them and the new spec, and people who were planning on playing it had them stocked up before the expansion dropped. Many E Spec's are fairly readable as well, on top of understanding the core class itself, learning a functional, or even optimal way to play an E Spec could take as little as 30 minutes. 

On 4/8/2022 at 7:02 AM, Valisha.8650 said:

Things like last sustain nerf or Catalyst nerf (and then buff again, lol) make me consider - Is anet doing too many changes in a single patch? Such approach reminds me more of MOBA games, where every players owns a dozen of characters, and can always just play few matches to buy new one if their main or two get nerfed.

That said I am not a supporter of how anet handled Catalyst. The specifics of the Catalyst buffs and nerf didn't effect me because I was simply ready to accept that the constant element swapping and hammer three upkeep was (until recently) too much for me. However watching it's damage get slashed IN HALF while other E specs like Scrapper, Firebrand, Mechanist, and Specter still held their titles as major supports while keeping their extreme damage (Firebrand, Mechanist, Specter) or insane utility (Scrapper) was a punch to the gut.

 

I feel like if anet wants to do balance changes on a regular basis they will really have to deeply understand the meta that forms for each spec in each area of their game. Breaking it down simply PvP WvW and PvE might all need different versions balance for all specs. With 27 E specs and 3 game types their new balance team might be going through some growing pains.

[otto.5684]

It takes 3-4 years for Anet to make any meaningful changes. I would not call that “drastic.”

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

wrong, bladesworn is garbage and is not play tested.

you think it is good, it is only carried by abnormal amount of healing it has, everything else is garbage.

it is just over sustaining enemies on lower level, a typical tanky low effort bunker build, if you go against another one of those useless builds from other classes, it will just become an endless battle, with no winners, with basically 0 outplay potential.

 

while spellbreaker, can outplay and bust these low effort toxic bunker builds, which is a true duelist build that can help team in a meaningful way, by actually busting bunker builds and taking the point.

 

and you can tell how this spec had 0 play test, without shoutheal, the spec will become unplayable, the damage increase is so minimum and class traits/utilities have very little interaction with this spec.

Disagree.

Bladesworn isn't the problem. The problem is the state of warrior. 

Warrior is left in a terrible state where builds have to carry it and without those base foundations improved. 

It's just overnerfed now so yeah this is a problem but it's a problem that needs fixing at the foundation

[felix.2386]

7 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Disagree.

Bladesworn isn't the problem. The problem is the state of warrior. 

Warrior is left in a terrible state where builds have to carry it and without those base foundations improved. 

It's just overnerfed now so yeah this is a problem but it's a problem that needs fixing at the foundation

Disagree, while warrior has problem in itself own, it doesn't nullify bladesworns own problem.

And bladesworns problem is way bigger then berserker and spellbreaker, is not simply stupid numbers, but fundamentally flawed design wise. 

[Avatara.1042]

Anet need to understand the game first, then they could do weekly tweaks.

[Puck.3697]

On 4/10/2022 at 4:34 AM, felix.2386 said:

Disagree, while warrior has problem in itself own, it doesn't nullify bladesworns own problem.

And bladesworns problem is way bigger then berserker and spellbreaker, is not simply stupid numbers, but fundamentally flawed design wise. 

I'd argue against that realistically. 

We are talking about 1 traitline and 1 mechanic. And to say it's more flawed then berserker and spellbreaker isn't true. 

Berserker is a 1 shot meme build in terms of spvp this is because it's too easy to shut down as it's mechanic quite litterally conflicts with the game mode itself. 

Spellbreaker is a duellist that can't duel Condi builds and directly countered by thief which makes its position irrelevant to begin with. It also lacks a single good utility designed for the specc

Bladesworn weather you like it or not flexs as both a teamfighter and a sidenoder, it holds a very valuable stun with damage on it, it can sustain both Condi and power builds and innately builds more range in it then spellbreaker has by a mile. 

It's not carried by shouts either, if shouts were the power house it'd be a power house on every choice, it's the bladesworns ammunition mechanic which makes the shoutbuild so strong. 

You cannot call something which innately depends on the elites mechanic the "carry". It cohesively puts the pieces in place for that build to exist. As a very strong flexible role option which simply does spellbreakers job better, with higher consistent damage and makes core utility stronger. 

Bladesworns flawed sure, but then again what elite isn't. The elite specc design itself is flawed. But what holds bladesworn back is the core foundations. 

- core warrior lacks good condi sustain consistently. 

- alot of core warrior weapons are simply outdated or over nerfed. 

- the sustain nerfs on it were too heavy. 

- core warrior weapons are 100x more telegraphed then other proffessions. 

- it lacks flexibility at core foundstion. 

- alot of its options got rendered mute once the CC damage nerfs rolled in. 

If you fixed warrior at its core, rebalanced these weapon sets they absolutely ruined and reworked traitlines which warrior has be forced into and allow some flexibility into its builds. 

All 3 speccs would profit. 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

On 4/8/2022 at 11:01 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

tbh, bladesworns Really good. its Just Not a Warrior. it thematically just doesnt fit the bill. its not enjoyable... Like Spellbreaker.

the shout build in PvP Content does REALLY well in both teamfights and duelling, its Puts out ALOT of damage, and has some strong options in gameplay which work really well, in Open world it provides a really good solo build, while also in Raids it does have its stengths and fights where it deos really well.. .but it mimics Berserkers role.. which doesnt make it feel very seperate in choice realistically.

Bladesworns Problem is the fact its bladesworn, not the fact its Not strong. It lacks the Warrior feeling and Feels more alike a Kinship for Engineers who dont like AI. Its thematically far from the concepts people want from Warrior, but its Not weak by any stretch of imagination in ALOT Of content.

i think.. bladesworn is just a Mile off the demand as a Concept and i think thats the primary problem here, it solves None of warriors core problems and Just doubles down on roles the proffession already had.

- Lack of Good Ranged Options for the proffession.

- Another Duellist.

- Once again a Banner Slave Support.

- Melee Pistol still leaves Warrior without a Offhand option to fight against shield in Competitive Modes.

- Another Power based Primary DPS.

it Just doesnt fit the demand. it isnt bad, it isnt awful. it does its job well and tbh pretty kitten strong, its just not what the Warrior community.. its one of the few Elites i'd honestly say completely misread the audience.

 

Bladesworn is a marketing E Spec. 

It doesn't serve a purpose beyond that. 

It's as simple as that. 

 

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Bladesworn is a marketing E Spec. 

It doesn't serve a purpose beyond that. 

It's as simple as that. 

 

That be true. Haha 

It doesn't feel like warrior. There are defintly much better concepts out there. 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

8 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

That be true. Haha 

It doesn't feel like warrior. There are defintly much better concepts out there. 

Could you imagine? 

Making Core Warrior the dedicated offensive support choice?

Making Zerker the dedicated dps choice? 

Making Spellbreaker the dedicated PvP choice? 

And then a new E Spec dedicated for defensive support tailored for Wvw? 

 

A Warrior can dream... A Warrior can dream. 😢

[Puck.3697]

9 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Could you imagine? 

Making Core Warrior the dedicated offensive support choice?

Making Zerker the dedicated dps choice? 

Making Spellbreaker the dedicated PvP choice? 

And then a new E Spec dedicated for defensive support tailored for Wvw? 

 

A Warrior can dream... A Warrior can dream. 😢

Think this is the biggest problem with bladesworn. We already had berserker. 

They missed a huge opportunity with monk. And given their new rule of each elite has 2 jobs they got alot of work to do if they are gonna honor that. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Think this is the biggest problem with bladesworn. We already had berserker. 

They missed a huge opportunity with monk. And given their new rule of each elite has 2 jobs they got alot of work to do if they are gonna honor that. 

What's berserker's other job then?

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

What's berserker's other job then?

Well exactly 

 

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Think this is the biggest problem with bladesworn. We already had berserker. 

They missed a huge opportunity with monk. And given their new rule of each elite has 2 jobs they got alot of work to do if they are gonna honor that. 

That's why I said they got alot of work to do 😂

Spellbreaker and berserker both lack second jobs effectively. 

Unless they're gonna try include banners as a job which would be a joke as banners are litterally apart of its DPS set up 😂