Alternative path for PVE Legendary Armor

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

11 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Name one, or stop with the dishonest accusations, tyvm.

Wait didn't you say to me to kill the dolyaks in WvW , and i said i prefer ones on PvE instead .

And then you went around and told the others that "some people want to kill dolyaks " to get the Legendary ?

 

I am saying lets here the opinion of fresh blood and the cost will be made by the company 🙂

They did a great jobs Raids vs WvW vs PvP  and they know that the open PvE is the lifeblood of the game , because it shows how "alive" it is to new people

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Sobx.1758]

31 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Wait didn't you say to me to kill the dolyaks in WvW , and i said i prefer ones on PvE instead .

And then you went around and told the others that "some people want to kill dolyaks " to get the Legendary ?

 

I am saying lets here the opinion of fresh blood and the cost will be made by the company 🙂

And what I am saying is: Meanwhile, all I think here is that leggy gear is entirely optional and as such is a good way to push some people into discovering broader content of the game. Still, nobody is forced into anything, since there's no problem with playing in ex/asc gear. The biggest (probably only) directly related to that fact complaint I've seen is something along the lines of "I don't want to acquire new gear when it's introduced into the game" (or for another build). But mostly that gear is easly acquired in OW content, so I'm not sure why this is somehow an issue for those very same players wanting to play strictly OW content? This is also why from what I see pretty much everything here boils down to avoiding effort. Even if it's not needed in the first place (to acquire some highly specific gear), because that's how most of the game is balanced, especially in OW.

Which you then dodge, because all you want is easy access to any rewards in the game you wish having.

Quote

They did a great jobs Raids vs WvW vs PvP

If you agree they did a great job there, then go get your reward in one of the 3 available ways. Or don't , you don't need to, it's still as optional as it was.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And what I am saying is: Meanwhile, all I think here is that leggy gear is entirely optional and as such is a good way to push some people into discovering broader content of the game. Still, nobody is forced into anything, since there's no problem with playing in ex/asc gear. The biggest (probably only) directly related to that fact complaint I've seen is something along the lines of "I don't want to acquire new gear when it's introduced into the game" (or for another build). But mostly that gear is easly acquired in OW content, so I'm not sure why this is somehow an issue for those very same players wanting to play strictly OW content? This is also why from what I see pretty much everything here boils down to avoiding effort. Even if it's not needed in the first place (to acquire some highly specific gear), because that's how most of the game is balanced, especially in OW.

Which you then dodge, because all you want is easy access to any rewards in the game you wish having.

If you agree they did a great job there, then go get your reward in one of the 3 available ways. Or don't , you don't need to, it's still as optional as it was.

Yes Legendary gear is optional  just like the Weapons.

But like the weapon , it doesn't hurt to create an extra Legendary set

 

Why do you believe that forcing people to do Raids and get the Legendary there is a good idea?

Wouldn't that increase the toxicity ?

 

(first of all , we talk that the Devs , 2 months ago in a stream said that Legendary is a "participation" reward , no high end . Maybe it should document in a future megapost..old gg..)

Edited April 15, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Sobx.1758]

15 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Yes Legendary gear is optional  just like the Weapons.

Yes, it is. And it still doesn't change anything about what I said. If anything, it reinforces it, so not sure why this is somehow worth mentioning here.

Quote

But like the weapon , it doesn't hurt to create an extra Legendary set

There are 3 sets, easly enough.

Quote

Why do you believe that forcing people to do Raids and get the Legendary there is a good idea?

Hey, here's the response to this question: 

Meanwhile, all I think here is that leggy gear is entirely optional and as such is a good way to push some people into discovering broader content of the game. Still, nobody is forced into anything, since there's no problem with playing in ex/asc gear. The biggest (probably only) directly related to that fact complaint I've seen is something along the lines of "I don't want to acquire new gear when it's introduced into the game" (or for another build). But mostly that gear is easly acquired in OW content, so I'm not sure why this is somehow an issue for those very same players wanting to play strictly OW content? This is also why from what I see pretty much everything here boils down to avoiding effort. Even if it's not needed in the first place (to acquire some highly specific gear), because that's how most of the game is balanced, especially in OW.

So when will you stop dodging answers to the question you're asking over and over again?

15 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Wouldn't that increase the toxicity ?

No, but nice attempt at blindly throwing another unrelated buzzword at me, while carefully avoiding addressing anything I write anyways.

Quote

(first of all , we talk that the Devs , 2 months ago in a stream said that Legendary is a "participation" reward , no high end . Maybe it should document in a future megapost..old gg..)

That's great. So go participate in the broader content the game offers. The issue here is... you don't want to participate. And you don't need to, but it's still nothing more than your choice. No participation in more of the game's content = no more optional rewards form the content you're refusing to participate in.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Lets have a conversation , plz

Gladly, lets start with you responding to what you've dropped right above:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/113298-alternative-path-for-pve-legendary-armor/page/22/?tab=comments#comment-1639079

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/113298-alternative-path-for-pve-legendary-armor/page/22/?tab=comments#comment-1639087

What you're doing is not "having a conversation", you're shooting blanks and running from every answer you get, at least in the past few pages.

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Gladly, lets start with you responding to what you've dropped right above:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/113298-alternative-path-for-pve-legendary-armor/page/22/?tab=comments#comment-1639079

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/113298-alternative-path-for-pve-legendary-armor/page/22/?tab=comments#comment-1639087

 

Follow me here , simply things .

Gear 4 => retention , full maps

 

cons ?

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Follow me here , simply things .

Meanwhile, all I think here is that leggy gear is entirely optional and as such is a good way to push some people into discovering broader content of the game. Still, nobody is forced into anything, since there's no problem with playing in ex/asc gear. The biggest (probably only) directly related to that fact complaint I've seen is something along the lines of "I don't want to acquire new gear when it's introduced into the game" (or for another build). But mostly that gear is easly acquired in OW content, so I'm not sure why this is somehow an issue for those very same players wanting to play strictly OW content? This is also why from what I see pretty much everything here boils down to avoiding effort. Even if it's not needed in the first place (to acquire some highly specific gear), because that's how most of the game is balanced, especially in OW.

Prove you want to have a conversation and start respond to the posts you're quoting.

5 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

retention , full maps

Maps are full anyways. Your whole point is to improve/get more rewards in content you're playing anyways. So this is not a realistic argument and you know it.

Anyways, as I said above, it's clear you won't address anything you quote, so we're done here.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[The Boz.2038]

34 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Why do you believe that forcing people to do Raids and get the Legendary there is a good idea?

Wouldn't that increase the toxicity ?

Because it increases participation in an existing gamemode, multiplying the resource payout sunk into it.
No, it would not increase toxicity, raids are not inherently toxic, nor are raiders.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Because it increases participation in an existing gamemode, multiplying the resource payout sunk into it.
No, it would not increase toxicity, raids are not inherently toxic, nor are raiders.

We have Strikes ,which they are an improved form of Raids (multiply dificulty) , with specific rewards (LI) and named differently .

And ofc weekly resets. (edit: more relaxed , as far as nourishing new people , but new instances should reset at specific days . Set1(this one) in Monday - Set2 etc)

 

Should we change the name of CM to raids and put adds , so it becomes a 2-hour instance ?

Or create more mini stories ?

Edited April 15, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Vilin.8056]

3 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

If we can agree on the basic premise that an OW armor would be a good addition for the game I'm fine to move on to discussing potential challenges and risks of certain acquisition methods.

Except that it is not a good addition.

There are already several multi hundred post debates about this a year ago that most of the past debate participants don't bother to bring it up again.

In short, GW2 isn't a gearscore game. The QoL benefit of legendary armor are made for players who participates competitive modes that require constantly modifying their entire accounts of gears every balance patch. This also applies to PvP(who build their PvE according to their pvp stats), WvW, and Raid.

In the sense of OW, where the majority of casual players made their income from selling mats based from acended crafting, making the armor available effectively kills their sell value only at the benefit of a minority of rich players who has already accumulated a lot of gold.

Instead of introducing a premium armor that simply infuriate a community of players that only play single build, Anet's precious development resource are better spent elsewhere, if not by narrowing the skill gap.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Vilin.8056

[Vayne.8563]

7 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Bold of you to now claim it's my assumption. Meanwhile, it's not exactly some baseless assumption when in the very same post I've quoted there, you wrote:

As far as my understanding of what "I'd love to..." means, it directly states that you're not doing that. Maybe it was a typo, maybe that's not what you've meant, I have no problem with that -but that is what you wrote, so don't try to blame me now for some "assumptions" about you, just because I've commented directly on what you wrote in the very same post I've quoted there.

 

No, I think optional rewards that anyone can earn if they want to and decide to play broader content the game offers is perfectly reasonable. If someone doesn't want to, they don't need to. You're making your own decisions and as you've just dramatically uncovered, you are in fact already working on the armor through multiple sources. You are also free to do that.

Ah, so you're still working on it either way. But on the previous page you've claimed you were ok (ok-ish?) and "now that this thread popped out again, you're getting annoyed", which is why you've decided to announce on the forum "you'll spend less". So when you were working towards the reward/goal, you were not exactly annoyed to the point of spending less, but now that the thread is there and nothing else changed... you're spending less again? Or did this thread somehow pushed you to start working on the reward you want? I'm trying to get a vague timeline of what you've said in your posts in this specific thread within the span of less than a day to get a better understanading of what is happening here.

 

Because, again, as I've already said multiple times, that optional reward is made to entice people to play more of the game's content, not less of it. To make it absolutely clear, despite already repeating it in this post, I'll say it again: if you don't want to, then you don't need to. That is what "optional" means.

Hope I've answered it above.

I'd agree with you if I thought raids were the broader content of the game.  Raids aren't like dynamic events around which the game centers, or meta events which have been here since launch. They're not even successful enough to continue making. The community itself has basically said no to raids, but yet you want to consider raids part of the broader content of the game. 

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the game would be just as happy if raids weren't here.  That's my point all along.  Anet isn't making PVE more inclusive to people who do it by insisting legendary armor be given in PvE only to raiders. They took the most popular area of the game (PvE) and locked the legendary armor behind the least popular part of that (raids).   I'm not quite sure how that has anything to do with the broader area of the game.

And even Mike Obrien said only 10% of the players are PvPers, so two of the three legendary armors are locked behind two of the least popular areas of the game. And I wonder how much of that 10% are PvEer's just trying to get legendary armor.

You know, I think I'll open a restaurant and just make it so people can get rewarded for eating there, but only if they order the least popular dishes.  The ones they don't like the taste of.  Order your least favorite food and we'll reward you.

This sounds like a restaurant I wouldn't want to eat at.

Oh I'm currently not working on legendary armor, even though I have 3 pieces, because working on it made me want to stop playing.  Yes I do raid once a week, but I'm not doing it to get legendary armor.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Vayne.8563
clarity

[The Boz.2038]

34 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the game would be just as happy if raids weren't here.

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the game would be just as happy if whatever else they happen to not engage in weren't here.
Say, PvP.
Or WvW.
Or you, as a player.
It is literally not an argument, and should be dismissed as easily as it was made.

But yeah, sure sounds like some sour grapes in your post right there. "I personally don't like them, but if we delete them, then we could get the rewards doing maybe something else, and all those who enjoy them be damned!" 

[SlayerXX.7138]

44 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Oh I'm currently not working on legendary armor, even though I have 3 pieces, because working on it made me want to stop playing.  Yes I do raid once a week, but I'm not doing it to get legendary armor.

Then Chill out, have fun playing the Game. You gonna get them eventually. It is a long term goal anyways.

[Klowdy.3126]

8 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Correct! But this post made it clear that most of them don't want a fair reward. And Anet isn't gonna make huge changes if there isn't a demand for it. Big demand only exists(looking at the discussion in this threat) if it is on the level of effort as that amulet. Which wouldn't sit well with a lot of people. When I can get account wide legendary Armor in maybe 40 hours of rather relaxed gameplay, why should I ever bother with ascended again. This makes all acquisition methods for armor irrelevant.

 

In shorter terms: old legendary armor? Sure maybe for halve the grind of PvP/WvW. It just wont be as easy as the amulet as that was a cash grab to funnel people into the Gem store for LW. QOL progression and Gold is all there is to give in the game as a reward after all.

And as I said, who cares? I'm not talking about the people, or what they want. I'm talking about the company of this game taking a good idea (which came from a bad idea) and making it work.

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the game would be just as happy if whatever else they happen to not engage in weren't here.
Say, PvP.
Or WvW.
Or you, as a player.
It is literally not an argument, and should be dismissed as easily as it was made.

But yeah, sure sounds like some sour grapes in your post right there. "I personally don't like them, but if we delete them, then we could get the rewards doing maybe something else, and all those who enjoy them be damned!" 

It's an argument in that disenfranchising a small percentage of the playerbase is logically better for the game than disenfranchising a large one. 

You've admited now raids just aren't popular. If people liked them they'd play them. Same with PvP. So placing a PvE legendary armor behind what is likely the least popular PvE helps no one except the tiny percent who want that armor. And yes some other PvEers will buy raids, which means that the mode is even less popular than we think it is because some of those people raiding are just buying them.  But you don't think any of those people will feel resentful that they feel they have to buy them to get that reward. That there's no alternative. 

I've never bought a raid, because it's not in me to do so. But that doesn't mean I'm happy with the situation. I'm telling you for a fact that part of the reason I resent raiding being  in this game has having legendary armor locked behind it. Anet it telling me go play this unpopular area of the game, because it's the only way we can get people to do it.  A better solution would be to have another path so I can have fun playing the game rather than having to jump through hoops and not have fun. I know that's a novel concept to some people.

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Albi.7250 said:

Then Chill out, have fun playing the Game. You gonna get them eventually. It is a long term goal anyways.

I won't get them eventually. I'm sure I'll stop raiding long before I have them. I don't really find it that much fun.

[Dante.1508]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:42 PM, Mik.3401 said:

Ok this is a legit point, but again why would you strive to get e.g. harrier gear over say cleric for open world? Nothing in the open world really requires such pension in choosing gear. If one is doing fractals the story is bit different, but if one can do fractals and cannot do raids then it is their own decision because many raids are not all that hard. Yes it requires to find a Guild, but I guess we play Guild wars innit.

Depends on the class, race and gear needed..

[Obtena.7952]

I think at this point the question isn't if we should have another path. Obviously Anet are aware of the limitations of Leg Armor implementation and despite Anet's recent communication and indication of reworking balance/content rewards ... no hint of Leg Armor has been mentioned. 

So the question is why would Anet allow a primiere BiS gear asset to remain sitting behind content that has proven to be of little interest to most people and in the case of raids, not even supported with new development anymore. 

Argue all you like that Leg Armor should be 'hard to get' or 'people just lazy' ... the fact is that in the interest of people playing the game for 'reasons' (and there is no debate, the more reasons, the better it is for the game) ... Leg Armor seems to be a reason Anet doesn't want people to have to be interested in playing it. Can it be that somehow an alternative path is a detriment to the game? It's hard to think it would be. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Labjax.2465]

5 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Except that it is not a good addition.

There are already several multi hundred post debates about this a year ago that most of the past debate participants don't bother to bring it up again.

In short, GW2 isn't a gearscore game. The QoL benefit of legendary armor are made for players who participates competitive modes that require constantly modifying their entire accounts of gears every balance patch. This also applies to PvP(who build their PvE according to their pvp stats), WvW, and Raid.

In the sense of OW, where the majority of casual players made their income from selling mats based from acended crafting, making the armor available effectively kills their sell value only at the benefit of a minority of rich players who has already accumulated a lot of gold.

Instead of introducing a premium armor that simply infuriate a community of players that only play single build, Anet's precious development resource are better spent elsewhere, if not by narrowing the skill gap.

Tell this to the people who make a big deal about players who aren't carrying their weight in open world metas. Idk what your take is on that, but people have to pick a lane there (heck, Anet who insists on making overtuned metas at release, has to pick a lane there): either this is a casual game where gear and stat switching doesn't matter and therefore legendary gear is superfluous prestige items, or this is a challenging game where gear and stat switching is vitally important to be the best contributor you can be and therefore the stat swapping feature attached to legendary gear at least, is bordering on essential gameplay feature.

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

12 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Neither did legendary trinkets and armor. But apparently "what was and wasn't since the start" only matters when it supports the narrative you want it to support.

i wasn't supporting any narrative with that statement, which anybody could easily interpret. i was simply posting my perception of how people think of those areas as a separate game mode, and how they feel left out of a design decision as a result. i guess their feelings and opinion mean absolutely nothing to you. no wonder why they don't seem to care about your opinions either. 

 

i don't know what narrative you're putting in my mouth, so i'll quote you my opinion:

 

Quote

 

back to topic: should OW (since it is considered by many to NOT be the same game mode as raids, strikes, and fractals) offer a way to acquire Legendary armor?

my answer (brainstorming here)? i really don't know if it should, but i wouldn't be opposed to it.

 

 so again, i don't know what narrative this pushes... "i'm not opposed to it", so i can only assume that you think i'm wrong for not opposing something that you (presumably) oppose. and thanks (sarcasm) for totally ignoring what i actually said...

 

to be clear: the bolded part is NOT my opinion. only the "i'm not opposed to it" is.

[Vilin.8056]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Tell this to the people who make a big deal about players who aren't carrying their weight in open world metas. Idk what your take is on that, but people have to pick a lane there (heck, Anet who insists on making overtuned metas at release, has to pick a lane there): either this is a casual game where gear and stat switching doesn't matter and therefore legendary gear is superfluous prestige items, or this is a challenging game where gear and stat switching is vitally important to be the best contributor you can be and therefore the stat swapping feature attached to legendary gear at least, is bordering on essential gameplay feature.

The stat swapping feature is only essential for players who constantly swap builds on the fly to meet multiple situational requirements - such as from a DPS role into a healer Role, without leaving the game mode - again only happens in a competitive environment.

 

The majority of players who couldn't carry their weight in OW struggles at basic build crafting and basic skill execution. They don't even have one single build template worthy of Strike missions. Which often left them mentally defeated at Endgame contents. Misleading them into grinding for premium gears as an only way out simply adds more salt to the wound rather than being a solution.

[Ryuk.6840]

10 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

The stat swapping feature is only essential for players who constantly swap builds on the fly to meet multiple situational requirements - such as from a DPS role into a healer Role, without leaving the game mode - again only happens in a competitive environment.

 

The majority of players who couldn't carry their weight in OW struggles at basic build crafting and basic skill execution. They don't even have one single build template worthy of Strike missions. Which often left them mentally defeated at Endgame contents. Misleading them into grinding for premium gears as an only way out simply adds more salt to the wound rather than being a solution.

Wouldn't OW player benefit from the stat-swapping system , such as respecting to healer/dps/and any combinations of Alacrity-Quickness on the fly , to accommodate content like Soo-Won ?

[Vilin.8056]

13 minutes ago, Ryuk.6840 said:

Wouldn't OW player benefit from the stat-swapping system , such as respecting to healer/dps/and any combinations of Alacrity-Quickness on the fly , to accommodate content like Soo-Won ?

Then they wouldn't be strictly an OW player.

The irony is, the majority of players who are willing to do these roles have already obtained their Legendary Armor from either of these modes.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Vilin.8056

[Ryuk.6840]

10 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Then they wouldn't be strictly an OW player.

The irony is, the majority of players who are willing to do these roles have already obtained their Legendary Armor from either of these modes.

Shouldn't we try to create more people like them , by creating faster ways to get a legendary set  ? Those kind of  people  are more likely going to join the hardcore scene

[The Boz.2038]

6 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It's an argument in that disenfranchising a small percentage of the playerbase is logically better for the game than disenfranchising a large one. 

You've admited now raids just aren't popular. If people liked them they'd play them. Same with PvP. So placing a PvE legendary armor behind what is likely the least popular PvE helps no one except the tiny percent who want that armor. And yes some other PvEers will buy raids, which means that the mode is even less popular than we think it is because some of those people raiding are just buying them.  But you don't think any of those people will feel resentful that they feel they have to buy them to get that reward. That there's no alternative. 

I've never bought a raid, because it's not in me to do so. But that doesn't mean I'm happy with the situation. I'm telling you for a fact that part of the reason I resent raiding being  in this game has having legendary armor locked behind it. Anet it telling me go play this unpopular area of the game, because it's the only way we can get people to do it.  A better solution would be to have another path so I can have fun playing the game rather than having to jump through hoops and not have fun. I know that's a novel concept to some people.

DISENFRANCHISING!? My, we really are into the bigboy words league now, folks!

"Most people don't like SAB. Delete it, gives us SAB rewards. It's healthier for the game!"

"Most people don't play races. Delete them, give us all the race rewards. It logically makes sense."

Etc. 
This, people, is what I'm talking about when I mention "gimmes". This is a gimme in elemental form. "I don't want to do content X for reward Y. Delete it, so I can get reward Y with content I already do, with no need for me to change my habits or challenge myself."