Alternative path for PVE Legendary Armor

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Yet here you are another player seemingly in favor derailing the discussion. 
Recap:

1 Piece of Legendary armor should take around 1/3 or 1/2 of the effort of a weapon.

Are you okay with that?

Yes? Good lets talk about that. How is that gonna look. Should it take same resources as the weapons. Why? Why not? etc.

 

No? Should it take less effort? If yes why? Someone pointed out it would crash the economy. The point was if everyone gets Legendary armor to fast/easy there is no need for other gear and everything becomes worthless. If you disagree: Why?

There isn't any derailing here. I'm not here to talk theoretical 'value' of what it should take to make a piece of legendary armor compared to a Leg weapon based on a non-existent process. That's a completely WORTHLESS, academic discussion and actually has NOTHING to do with an alternate path for Leg Armor. That's not something under player control if Anet did implement another path for Leg Armor. I'm certain NO discussion here would influence that either. 

here is what I think: if Anet DID implement a Leg Armor alternate path, it would LIKELY be of a scale for the current Leg Armor implementations and f primarily just replace replace the 'offending' mats with open world equivalents. It would have NOTHING to do with the Leg Weapon process or the cost of getting a Leg Weapon. That's a nonsense comparison in the first place considering there are 3 generations of Leg Weapons with MULTIPLE ways and costs associated to get them ALREADY shows there is little concern for cost equivalency in legendary gear.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Xerxez.7361]

Comparing Legendary Weapons to Legendary Armor isn't a great comparison as their usefulness is vastly different.  A few players I know use Ascended Weapons over Legendary Weapons even though they have both because it's more annoying to change Legendary stats vs swapping Ascended Weapons.

[Ryuk.6840]

10 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Yes, and you will still need that extra template even with legendary armor on.

Stat swapping every piece of armor and runes is an effort consuming process that is too easy make an error that ruins the whole build. It simply takes too long to make your character battle ready and entirely not practical.

Yeah i agree with that , but in the meanwhile with the Set , i get the  ability to freely delete my characters (Norm Warrior.. still debating for it..)

Edited April 16, 2022 by Ryuk.6840

[SlayerXX.7138]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There isn't any derailing here. I'm not here to talk theoretical 'value' of what it should take to make a piece of legendary armor with a non-existent process. That's a completely WORTHLESS discussion. 

And calling player Toxic is worthwhile?

You are team "change it". Change takes effort. To put effort into something needs a reason. A reason you have to provide.

Team "keep it as it is" always has at least one clear and fair point they can make. It is fine as it is, why should we change the status quo.

 

It is a game we are discussing in a forum on the internet. You cant annoy people to death here. You can`t intimidate other player. You can`t pressure them with insults till they give in. This isn't RL. They can just close the forum tab.

 

Either you try making a point or nothing will change. You wanna sling dirt around? Fine do that just don't pretend you do it for the benefit of the game.

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Albi.7250

[SlayerXX.7138]

6 minutes ago, Xerxez.7361 said:

Comparing Legendary Weapons to Legendary Armor isn't a great comparison as their usefulness is vastly different.  A few players I know use Ascended Weapons over Legendary Weapons even though they have both because it's more annoying to change Legendary stats vs swapping Ascended Weapons.

 Which doesn't applies to armor why exactly? Maybe it is just personal preference. Why would it matter that in some corner case they are different. If they are so similar in all other regards?

[Ryuk.6840]

10 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

And calling player Toxic is worthwhile?

You are team "change it". Change takes effort. To put effort into something needs a reason. A reason you have to provide.

Team "keep it as it is" always has at least one clear and fair point they can make. It is fine as it is, why should we change status quo.

 

It is a game we are discussing in a forum on the internet. You cant annoy people to death here. You can`t intimidate other player. You can`t pressure them with insults till they give in. This isn't RL. They can just close the forum tab.

 

Either you try making a point or nothing will changes. If you wanna sling dirt around? Fine do that, just don't pretend you do it for the benefit of the game.

 

Isn't he correct , although ?

The cost will be calculated by Anet , not by us .

Isn't this thread meant to agree that people want something for their game mode ?

[SlayerXX.7138]

Just now, Ryuk.6840 said:

Isn't he correct , although ?

The cost will be calculated by Anet , not by us .

Isn't this thread meant to agree that people want something for their game mode ?

You think a discussion is here so people can agree to add Legendary armor for your game mode?

So please tell me why do they not aggree?

[Erise.5614]

8 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

You think a discussion is here so people can agree to add Legendary armor for your game mode?

So please tell me why do they not aggree?

To be fair, this is a question you could answer, no?

Since we can agree that there is a hypothetical value where it could be fine, what's there left to talk about? 

Most of the discussion is about whether it should exist. The most detail that could be worthwhile to talk about and has not been brought up is about what OW tasks should be required. Pure mats? Collections? What kinds of collections were cool and would be sufficiently epic? 

There are plenty of arguments for it in this thread. Collecting those and summarizing might be useful. Collecting cons would be similarly useful.

Asking everyone for new ones or to repeat them doesn't seem the most constructive, no? 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Voltekka.2375]

37 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

You think a discussion is here so people can agree to add Legendary armor for your game mode?

So please tell me why do they not aggree?

Because people dont want ideas on how this would be implemented. They just want the shinies asap, OR ELSE I AM NOT BUYING STUFF FROM THE GEMSTORE.

Not much room for any kind of argument.

[Tails.9372]

46 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

The point was if everyone gets Legendary armor to fast/easy there is no need for other gear and everything becomes worthless.

What other gear would become worthless? OW doesn't even have a general asc set related to it which could be made "worthless" in the first place. So exotics then? As others pointed out more than enough exotics are already quite cheap to get so there is not much "worth" to be lost here (plus they would still be the go-to choice for new players) and if we're talking about exotics linked to specific content (e.g. the Runic set) then the main value is in the skins anyway in which case a legendary set would do nothing to devalue it.

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 minute ago, Tails.9372 said:

What other gear would become worthless? OW doesn't even have a general asc set related to it which could be made "worthless" in the first place. So exotics then? As others pointed out more than enough exotics are already quite cheap to get so there is not much "worth" to be lost here (plus they would still be the go-to choice for new players) and if we're talking about exotics linked to specific content (e.g. the Runic set) then the main value is in the skins anyway in which case a legendary set would do nothing to devalue it.

Why would anyone buy more then 1 set of runes. What would be the value of materials? Why would it be the go to choice for new players if Legendary is free/easy to get? How much less gold are you making after all that stuff lost its value?

[SlayerXX.7138]

56 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

You think a discussion is here so people can agree to add Legendary armor for your game mode?

So please tell me why do they not aggree?

48 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

To be fair, this is a question you could answer, no?

 

Of course I can answer that question.

 

So let me break it down for you and the others:

 

Team "NO" is in two camps:

1. No, because armor should be locked behind challenging content and require effort.
2. No, because OW are entitled and want everything for free. Which they are against on principle. Or because it would crash the economy.

 

And if people are not specific in the Effort they are willing to do. They have no avenue to argue against these points. And side points about player rendition are also meaningless if you don't be specific about the amount of effort for these things. If the effort would be zero so you would get anything just by clicking at it. People would be happy for a week and in a month halve the player base would disappear as there wouldn't be any point in playing the game. That is just how games like these work.

Edit: Look I like the idea on principle. I really do. I purposed multiple solutions and alternatives. But Page after Page they prove team "No" right. Team "NO" has the stronger argument. I try to base my opinion on facts no self interest. And so should the rest.

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Ryuk.6840]

10 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

 

 

Of course I can answer that question.

 

So let me break it down for you and the others:

 

Team "NO" is in two camps:

1. No, because armor should be locked behind challenging content and require effort.
2. No, because OW are entitled and want everything for free. Which they are against on principle. Or because it would crash the economy.

 

And if people are not specific in the Effort they are willing to do. They have no avenue to argue against these points. And side points about player rendition are also meaningless if you don't be specific about the amount of effort for these things. If the effort would be zero so you would get anything just by clicking at it. People would be happy for a week and in a month halve the player base would disappear as there wouldn't be any point in playing the game. That is just how games like these work.

 

 

I wouldn't say that the population will be halved after a month  , because people for some years had the asc gear and stayed .

Should we agree on 18 months ?

Edited April 16, 2022 by Ryuk.6840

[SlayerXX.7138]

9 minutes ago, Ryuk.6840 said:

I wouldn't say that the population will be halved after a month  , because people for some years had the asc gear and stayed .

Should we agree on 18 months ?

Please at least put some effort in reading the whole text. You clearly misunderstood what I wrote.

We wouldn't be agreeing, as you a clearly lying. Just repeat "want armor", you don't need my permission for that.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Ryuk.6840]

10 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Please at least put some effort in reading the whole text. You clearly misunderstood what I wrote.

We wouldn't be agreeing, as you a clearly lying. Just repeat "want armor", you don't need my permission for that.

Don't i need your permission ?

 

10 hours ago, Ryuk.6840 said:

And if people are not specific in the Effort they are willing to do. They have no avenue to argue against these points.

But with this quote , it seems that i need it

Edited April 16, 2022 by Ryuk.6840

[SlayerXX.7138]

9 minutes ago, Ryuk.6840 said:

Don't i need your permission ?

You do not. You can spawn "want armor" as much as you like.

 

And if people are not specific in the Effort they are willing to do. They have no avenue to argue against these points.

10 minutes ago, Ryuk.6840 said:

But with this quote , it seems that i need it

I just tried to explain to you, why the opposing side doesn't take you seriously. But you don't understand.  And you don't seem to be interested to put effort into understanding. In fact, effort seems to be a foreign concept to you.

[Vilin.8056]

3 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

I mean. On one hand this is talking about a small subsection of the community. And I mean, extremely small. 

And on the other hand, balance patches did not have this effect in the past. Not every patch is causing 10+ builds to turn on their head and require full recreations.

Anyone who can afford a full set of legendary armor, plus other subsequent legendaries to incoporate its full use, is all part of an extremely small subsection of the community.

Regarding how patches collide with players in competitive modes, it's simply something that only players within that circle throughout the past years could understand the impact.

 

3 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Nor does every character needs to have maxed out equipment. It's better. It's nicer. It's much more convenient. These players draw more utility out of stat swapping. No doubt. 
But I do find it curious how it's always talked about as "needing". No, they don't need it either. It can work fine without. It'd be more annoying. But it works. Just like OW players don't need legendary armor. They don't need lots of different builds. It can work fine without. And yes, they get objectively less utility out of it than the kinds of people you mentioned.

But it might still be more enjoyable. And (see my previous comment in this chain) a good way to both increase retention and bolster the economy with additional mat drains.

Exactly, I agree with you that most players don't need to have maxed out equipments.

However, being a game where 75~80% of the player base don't play past 2500 ap, adding more legedary gear grind isn't going to do much about player retention, nor is it going to help with the economy (also, as mentioned in the past comment)

3 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Number 1. I absolutely agree. The onboarding here could really use some work. Both because being able to swap stats wouldn't solve this issue and also because my suggestion isn't meant as improvement for beginners. Legendary equipment is a progression path for after you have completed ascended equipment. So an OW armor would not even help if stat swapping was helping. My point was more about: if this is the design philosophy behind legendary items then lots of design around the game is confusing. It's not obvious that players should be railroaded into as few builds as possible. 

Totally agree.

3 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Number 2. Taking out a potential source of error still simplifies the learning process. If you are new then the more variables you have available the more overwhelmed you are and the slower you'll learn. I know it's a bit of a joke of a game genre but some of the more elaborate idle games (which really a just a progression curve without gameplay around it) use this extremely effectively by giving you a specific goal to progress towards. You master it. And then they give you more parameters to tweak. More things to optimize and to synchronize. 

Celestial as low level default could help making sure people get a feeling for weapons and traits first. Getting a feeling for how effective they should be. Can then experiment with only gear and immediately feel the difference. That experimentation step is actually a real problem. Gear can't be free but cost discourages experimentation, leading some down a very poor build path and very poor mental states where they invested a hundred hours or more making a terrible build. And someone telling them it's terrible suddenly feels like a personal attack. Not sure about the solution. A smoother learning experience in general could help with this too. but it's really not a good dynamic to exist. 

It may be subjective on my end, but in terms of Celestial I do not think it takes out a potential source of error, but rather its all rounded nature compromises this error by allowing synergies inside the build to remain broken.

But yes, I also think Anet could implement a better new player exerience by making choices between condi and power more apparant during level 1-79.

3 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

On one hand, there's a difference between any instanced content and just raids. If you could get legendary armor similar as Ad Infinitum that wouldn't necessarily be bad either. It only has you play T4 for a single time. Most other stuff can be done on T1, a handful of steps in T2 or T3. It takes longer, but that's fair and fine. 

Fractals as content are a bit outdated. But a similar thing for strikes or this new class of harder meta events they go for would be valid. The volume is the problem. Forcing ~50 raid wing clears is steep. Strikes giving 1 is a good thing but isn't really enough. Because it is capped at 1 per week and because it's similar in challenge (talking about harvest temple vs like VG or Mursaat). It also takes longer, but as I said. That is fine in theory. 

I have nothing against fractal, though it would not address complaints from players who solely play OW.

 

3 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Legendary items must be the step after asended crafting. It mustn't abolish it.

The classic progression curve is to start out playing, getting lots of stuff, being drawn into all kinds of different content. Getting fewer rewards for doing similar or the same content increasingly more often.

A legendary armor would need to be balanced in such a way that it appears too far away for new players. So they opt for ascended first. E.g. my suggestion would boil down to legendary armor being worth about as much as crafting 5-6 ascended armors. 
Few will skip ascended items entirely. And the few who would, do so in the knowledge that exotics are fine for almost a year longer than it would have taken to craft a single ascended armor. Not sure if they are currently crafting ascended at all. 

In fact, if that is the major concern it's perfectly fine to not hand out precursors of any kind but requiring a crafted ascended armor. Possibly even multiple ones as part of the legendary recipe (crafted only, not dropped or bought. To assure appropriate mat drain). 

This would require significant overhaul of the game, since many acended armors aquisitions likely use the same code, and an effort figuring out which existing armor inside the player's inventory are crafted or looted. THEN you have the controversy of armors crafted using free acended insignia, or then mystic forged into stat swapping into a dfferent armor. All these development resources invested onto something that isn't deemed essential or needed.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Vilin.8056

[Cuks.8241]

The concern with OW legendary armour is that if it is too easy to obtain players will lose that carrot on a stick that drives them to play. Even game like gw2 with barely any vertical progression requires that carrot for many players. Maybe even more so. Even if its currently a no option for some due to being behind modes some just dont play, its still something out there that maybe one day they could obtain.

And armour is way more useful than weapons. One armour set makes any armour acquisition  redundant for 3 professions. If you change builds a lot you might need like 4-6 weapons for one profession alone. They do start to overlap. 

And maybe just because weapons are so "easily" obtainable its even more important that armour stays exclusive.

This is more for pve.

Its my opinion that primarily pvp players are different. The carrot is less important if not completely unimportant for many. Its mainly about game play and the thrill of a battle. Just imagine someone playing spvp exclusively for years. They have obtained all the rewards long a go and most are not useful to them anyway. Wvw is somewhere in between. 

[Ryuk.6840]

10 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

You do not. You can spawn "want armor" as much as you like.

 

And if people are not specific in the Effort they are willing to do. They have no avenue to argue against these points.

I just tried to explain to you, why the opposing side doesn't take you seriously. But you don't understand.  And you don't seem to be interested to put effort into understanding. In fact, effort seems to be a foreign concept to you.

Could you explain to me a little better ?

Don't you originally ask people , how much effort/time their willingly will sacrifice  and then cross reference it with the "NO groups" opinion ?

I simply said , lets make it 18 months (longest from every mode) and i don't feel intimated by that number , and  lets move on . And whoever other casual cries about the timeneeded  , you can point them to our names .

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Ryuk.6840

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

And calling player Toxic is worthwhile?

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. I've called no player toxic, nor does that have anything to do with the thread. ... and you accuse ME of derailing the thread? OK, gotcha. 👍

The fact is that comparing the value of Armor to Weapons has no value in a discussion related to increasing ways to obtain armor, whether it's legendary or any other quality level for that matter. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

19 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

The concern with OW legendary armour is that if it is too easy to obtain players will lose that carrot on a stick that drives them to play.

But that's already NOT a carrot to drive the vast majority of OW players that aren't making leg armor their goal by playing game modes they don't like anyways. At worst, if an OW method is added, then the desire for those players to play is the same or increases as it gives them ANOTHER reason to continue playing OW content. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Cuks.8241]

13 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

But that's already NOT a carrot to drive the vast majority of OW players that aren't making leg armor their goal by playing game modes they don't like anyways. At worst, if an OW method is added, then the desire for those players to play is the same or increases as it gives them ANOTHER reason to continue playing OW content. 

Maybe, maybe. It probably depends on the player. Some time a go I was watching a video from a game developer talking about this, how many players need that carrot even if they will never reach it. For example they will follow the raiding scene or competitive scene even if they dont raid or play pvp modes. They need something and or someone that is beyond them to aspire to.

And the desire could be only there until they get the armour. After that they might just quit. Its not like the game changes after the armour. you will be playing the same content.

And lest be honest here. OW is not challenging. If you are playing OW exclusively its not because you want that thrill of overcoming a challenge (it could be for some but majority probably not). I think many play because they are completionists. They want to acquire everything. If you want to keep those there must be things out of their reach. Now there are many achievements and skins and infusions and stuff yes but armour is something essential, its so RPG like to strive for better equipment.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not against a new legy pve armour set. But I would definitely require strikes and maybe some fractals on top of OW. And it looks like Anet is actually turning into direction of some more challenging content or at least trying to blur the lines. It's still not much and I think not enough to become a serious contender to some of the big mmorpg names but based on what we see I think its unlikely we get a new PVE legy set that wont include content like strikes or CMs.

[SlayerXX.7138]

3 hours ago, Ryuk.6840 said:

Could you explain to me a little better ?

Don't you originally ask people , how much effort/time their willingly will sacrifice  and then cross reference it with the "NO groups" opinion ?

I simply said , lets make it 18 months (longest from every mode) and i don't feel intimated by that number , and  lets move on .

Yes I did ask people to be specific. Because if you and other people are willing to put in the grind, that means the demand is there and it should be implemented. And with giving people a number, they can´t undermine your position by calling your entitled. Honestly I am kind of confused as your post reads very salty for someone seemingly of the same side as me.

 

I like the idea of OW armor. OW player should get a way to Legendary armor. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Maybe, maybe. It probably depends on the player. Some time a go I was watching a video from a game developer talking about this, how many players need that carrot even if they will never reach it. For example they will follow the raiding scene or competitive scene even if they dont raid or play pvp modes. They need something and or someone that is beyond them to aspire to.

And the desire could be only there until they get the armour. After that they might just quit. Its not like the game changes after the armour. you will be playing the same content.

And lest be honest here. OW is not challenging. If you are playing OW exclusively its not because you want that thrill of overcoming a challenge (it could be for some but majority probably not). I think many play because they are completionists. They want to acquire everything. If you want to keep those there must be things out of their reach. Now there are many achievements and skins and infusions and stuff yes but armour is something essential, its so RPG like to strive for better equipment.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not against a new legy pve armour set. But I would definitely require strikes and maybe some fractals on top of OW. And it looks like Anet is actually turning into direction of some more challenging content or at least trying to blur the lines. It's still not much and I think not enough to become a serious contender to some of the big mmorpg names but based on what we see I think its unlikely we get a new PVE legy set that wont include content like strikes or CMs.

Well, it doesn't depend on the player. The worst case is If Anet added an OW alternative to leg armor and EVERY OW player that didn't have Leg Armor didn't care. Then Leg Armor simply continues to not be a carrot for those players to play the game, just like it always wasn't for them. 

It can only get better from that. 

We already know for those players, Leg Armor as a carrot to do content they don't like ... already isn't a big enough carrot. So that shouldn't a concern to anyone. Legendary Armor locked behind content people don't want to do has already been shown to not be a driver to get those people to do that content. 

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Gibson.4036]

32 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Maybe, maybe. It probably depends on the player. Some time a go I was watching a video from a game developer talking about this, how many players need that carrot even if they will never reach it. For example they will follow the raiding scene or competitive scene even if they dont raid or play pvp modes. They need something and or someone that is beyond them to aspire to.

And the desire could be only there until they get the armour. After that they might just quit. Its not like the game changes after the armour. you will be playing the same content.

And lest be honest here. OW is not challenging. If you are playing OW exclusively its not because you want that thrill of overcoming a challenge (it could be for some but majority probably not). I think many play because they are completionists. They want to acquire everything. If you want to keep those there must be things out of their reach. Now there are many achievements and skins and infusions and stuff yes but armour is something essential, its so RPG like to strive for better equipment.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not against a new legy pve armour set. But I would definitely require strikes and maybe some fractals on top of OW. And it looks like Anet is actually turning into direction of some more challenging content or at least trying to blur the lines. It's still not much and I think not enough to become a serious contender to some of the big mmorpg names but based on what we see I think its unlikely we get a new PVE legy set that wont include content like strikes or CMs.

This reminds me of real life capitalism. Get people dreaming about the whole  house makeover and starting their own cottage business or making money in real estate and they identify with an economic class above theirs even if they’re unlikely to move significantly close to it in their lifetimes.

So leggie armor is the HGTV for the casuals? 😄