Need more clarity around 60% success rate in DE meta

[Malus.2184]

21 hours ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

And overly restricting Anet in their future encounter design. 

Can't have bosses with health and a timer because people fail to do damage. 

Can't have bosses with shockwaves because people don't jump over them.

Can't have bosses with dangerous hits because people cannot dodge them. 

Can't have bosses with breakbars because people cannot break them.

Claw of Jormag in DC

- Has no timer.

- Often does shockwave attacks.

- Has insanely dangerous hits

- Has a breakbar

I've yet to see anyone expressing that there is an issue with that fight. Objective reality disproves your subjective sentiment.

Something else must be the problem since almost all of those elements are also present in other fights. The only major difference is the heavy presence of RNG things the players have no control over. Something that objectively subjectively feels extremely frustrating for people, so frustrating that they just quit.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Malus.2184

[Malus.2184]

2 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

Thank you for showing me why you are not actually interested in the conversation.

This is the first time a person has ever said my definition is wrong and then throw my definition back at me. 🙂 

Translation: how dare you point out what I do instead of lending my point implicit validity by making it seems like it's worth arguing.

And I'll admit that I used the word "wrong" in emotional affect. I should have used the word "limited definition." You called my definition "wrong." When I showed that it was included in the definition what what as case study was, you expressed that your version was still correct and nothing about my version also being correct and instead pivoting to pushing that you're still technically correct.

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

9 hours ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

JYou can either ask yourself "how can I succeed this very manageable meta event"....
Or you can just complain endlessly on the official forums about it while others clear it daily.

I quit complaining about it. I just don't do this meta anymore :). Good luck to you and Anet if this is the direction Anet wants to go.

Also, If you doubt my dps, add me.. I will take you to Aerodrome and show you 35K+ dps. Same with my Managing group of 10, Come join my raid and strike run.

But managing 50 random people? I am not built for it.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Yellow Rainbow.6142

[Suzumiya.3049]

25 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Claw of Jormag in DC

Same for Jormag in BM but with 30 minutes timer - it's always enough even with not full squad.
Dragons end meta is realy very difficult on final stage and it's always FULL squad with food.. There is not enough time and there is a little windows for DPS on boss... My last try i have seen how the boss changes  sides continously so there was no posibility to do DAMAGE in 2-3 minutes, too many moves , entry threshold is too high! I was on 10+ meta tryes - and 0 was successful..

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

3 hours ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

I quit complaining about it. I just don't do this meta anymore :). Good luck to you and Anet if this is the direction Anet wants to go.

Also, If you doubt my dps, add me.. I will take you to Aerodrome and show you 35K+ dps. Same with my Managing group of 10, Come join my raid and strike run.

But managing 50 random people? I am not built for it.

 

I am sorry to hear that because I genuinely like the fight a lot. But you are making a choice here not to do the content. You are obviously way overqualified for it. But you make the choice not to do it while knowing you can if you wanted. That is completely fine. Many people are underqualified, refuse to become somewhat qualified and then proceed to complain instead. You are a person that raids and does strikes. So you know that asking people for basic communication skills, 7k DPS and some cc is not unreasonable, not even in the open world.

 

 

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

12 hours ago, Hesione.9412 said:

The plural of anecdote is not data. 

 

You are doing are continuing to do both reductio ad absurdum and ad hominem attacks on me. You're not addressing the points. You're failing to engage in good faith.

 

You're also making huge assumptions at how I'm doing in the meta. And your assumptions are wrong.

 

It was meant as an example, one that literally happened prior to me writing that response. The thing is, I have been doing it this way pretty much for weeks now, ever since I first set foot into Dragon's End (and, because I really like this event, this comes down to 1-2 kills daily). I just join a random lfg squad 15 minutes or so before the event chain starts, never been asked for a specific role and never had to join a discord. The only wall people are facing is their own unwillingness. So many people throughout this topic have offered advice in the form of builds, tactics, gear, mechanic explanations, and even invites for groups to get a kill, no discord required. It all gets ignored in favor of continued complaints. Once again, not unlike the example of the GW1 person I mentioned in my post. This person also continued to just complain, despite being offered advice, tactics, builds and even offers from people willing to let this person tag along with their own teams. At some point you can only look at yourself.

 

Meanwhile you try to write off everything I say as non arguments, put words into my mouth, while continuing to complain. 

That says more about you than it does about me I am afraid.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Wielder Of Magic.3950

[Astralporing.1957]

16 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

No, that's actually how it should evolve naturally. There shoulds never be a natural standstill until much later. The 60% should be 60% at currently instead of a stable 60/40. How long has it been since you've failed at something that had been in the game for a long time? Tripple Trouble excepted.

I still can't do skipping stones the intended way. And even if i'll manage to do it one day, it will be due to luck, and not something i will be able to reproduce. I still have as much problem with Liadri i had the first time (more, even, since they removed some cheese from that fight). Triple Trouble is another "exception". So is Serpent's Ire.

DE is not "naturally" getting better. It's not even the nerfs either (the effect of those is not really felt by most squads). The win rate increases simply because the "weaker" players just stop coming to the event.

16 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

60/40 is unnatural unless it's cased by a performance benchmark.

It is caused by performance issues. There are groups with near to zero winrate, and those with 90%+ winrate. What i don't see anymore are groups with or near the mentioned by Anet 60% winrate.

16 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

However, even from observing DE one can observe how one group with a barely successfull performance benchmark can fail the next one if it has the exact same internal circumstances.

That only rarely happens nowaday. The groups for which RNG was the deciding factor are now extremely rare, now that the population of players still attempting the event stratified. Nowadays RNG usually just tells some groups how badly they lost, and decides with how much time advantage other groups won.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

But you are making a choice here not to do the content.

Yes. A lot of players do exactly that. You can try to frame this as "their problem" issue, but that won't change that basic fact that they are making this choice. And that due to this DE will eventually end up as another TT or serpent's ire. Which i doubt is what Anet wanted (although i can be mistaken here, i really doubt i am).

Edited April 26, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Malus.2184]

35 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That only rarely happens nowaday. The groups for which RNG was the deciding factor are now extremely rare, now that the population of players still attempting the event stratified. Nowadays RNG usually just tells some groups how badly they lost, and decides with how much time advantage other groups won.

Yes, it only happens rarely these days, because the people who are in doubt they can clear it has given up. The event right now is self-seleccting. You either get a near 100% complete or near a 100% fail since few other than premade squads even attempts it these days.

The relevant question is "how come it is this way?" And objectively, as described in occupational therapy and with elements here (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0001691811001053). Random events does serve as dividing attention as people will focus on the random elements they have no control over and think that they should have control over it.

[Ashen.2907]

6 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Claw of Jormag in DC

- Has no timer.

- Often does shockwave attacks.

- Has insanely dangerous hits

- Has a breakbar

I've yet to see anyone expressing that there is an issue with that fight. Objective reality disproves your subjective sentiment.

Something else must be the problem since almost all of those elements are also present in other fights. The only major difference is the heavy presence of RNG things the players have no control over. Something that objectively feels extremely frustrating for people, so frustrating that they just quit.

Not sure that, "objectively feels," works for me but I get your point anway. The difference between those two encounters may also be a function of how much is going on at once, relevance of the encounter, and how long the encounter takes on average. Claw (forgive my faulty memory if I am mistaken, but has been a while since I did the encounter) is a shorter fight, meaning that you are exposed fewer times to mechanics that can kill you if you make a mistake.

[Malus.2184]

6 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Not sure that, "objectively feels," works for me but I get your point anway. The difference between those two encounters may also be a function of how much is going on at once, relevance of the encounter, and how long the encounter takes on average. Claw (forgive my faulty memory if I am mistaken, but has been a while since I did the encounter) is a shorter fight, meaning that you are exposed fewer times to mechanics that can kill you if you make a mistake.

I never used "objectively feels," so I've no idea where you picked that up. I used "objective reality" and "subjective sentiment."

And Claw has a few "instant death" attacks that if you get hit by then you do down then you're effectively dead as the Chill or the insane amount of mobs will kill. The Claw screams and oushed you away, and if you go back too soon instead of hiding behind a rock the Claw will sometime breahte, which shatters the rocks and you if you get hit by it.

The only mechanic that's even half as punitive as that one is the Bite. I would think people have more issues with the 14-sec invul from the Bite than the Bite itself as that's well-telegraphed. The breath just happens instantaniously.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Malus.2184

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Not sure that, "objectively feels," works for me but I get your point anway. The difference between those two encounters may also be a function of how much is going on at once, relevance of the encounter, and how long the encounter takes on average. Claw (forgive my faulty memory if I am mistaken, but has been a while since I did the encounter) is a shorter fight, meaning that you are exposed fewer times to mechanics that can kill you if you make a mistake.

There aren't many of those. Claw's generally more forgiving about those. Notice however that it does have a few mechanics that are supposed to kill you even if you don't make a mistake (unless you consider participating in the event and attacking the boss a mistake).

I think you have missed the point of that Claw comparison though. As i see it it was something that shows that complains against specific example of a certain mechanic does not mean people are against that type of mechanic in general. Just that this specific case is problematic.

It's not absolute binary thing, it's about degrees and context.

[Ashen.2907]

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

I never used "objectively feels," so I've no idea where you picked that up. I used "objective reality" and "subjective sentiment."

And Claw has a few "instant death" attacks that if you get hit by then you do down then you're effectively dead as the Chill or the insane amount of mobs will kill. The Claw screams and oushed you away, and if you go back too soon instead of hiding behind a rock the Claw will sometime breahte, which shatters the rocks and you if you get hit by it.

The only mechanic that's even half as punitive as that one is the Bite. I would think people have more issues with the 14-sec invul from the Bite than the Bite itself as that's well-telegraphed. The breath just happens instantaniously.

 

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

I

The last sentence in the post I quoted says, "objectively feels..."

Edited April 26, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

There aren't many of those. Claw's generally more forgiving about those. Notice however that it does have a few mechanics that are supposed to kill you even if you don't make a mistake (unless you consider participating in the event and attacking the boss a mistake).

I think you have missed the point of that Claw comparison though. As i see it it was something that shows that complains against specific example of a certain mechanic does not mean people are against that type of mechanic in general. Just that this specific case is problematic.

It's not absolute binary thing, it's about degrees and context.

To be clear, I wasnt attempting to make some sort of binary comparison between the two encounters but rather was trying to express how something might be seen differently based on overall context. If someone sees the Claw fight as less important than the DE meta then failing to kill the Claw might feel like less of a let down (which is what I meant by relevance). An identical mechanic in two different encounters might be seen differently if one of those encounters also has several other nearly simultaneous mechanics, or other elements diluting player attention and making the mechanic feel more difficult.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Ashen.2907 said:

To be clear, I wasnt attempting to make some sort of binary comparison between the two encounters but rather was trying to express how something might be seen differently based on overall context. If someone sees the Claw fight as less important than the DE meta then failing to kill the Claw might feel like less of a let down (which is what I meant by relevance). An identical mechanic in two different encounters might be seen differently if one of those encounters also has several other nearly simultaneous mechanics, or other elements diluting player attention and making the mechanic feel more difficult.

The original quote Malus was responding to was

Quote

 

And overly restricting Anet in their future encounter design. 

Can't have bosses with health and a timer because people fail to do damage. 

Can't have bosses with shockwaves because people don't jump over them.

Can't have bosses with dangerous hits because people cannot dodge them. 

Can't have bosses with breakbars because people cannot break them.

 

Notice, how binary that one is.

The Claw example was showing how those points are faulty, because it's obviously not their existence (or lack) that decides what is an issue and what is not. That's all there was to it (or at least that's how i saw that post). That all those mechanics need to be seen not as binary but in degrees, and how it all must be considered in wider context. Just that, nothing more.

And, apparently, you do agree with that, as can be seen from your last response.

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Ashen.2907]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The original quote Malus was responding to was

Notice, how binary that one is.

The Claw example was showing how those points are faulty, because it's obviously not their existence (or lack) that decides what is an issue and what is not. That's all there was to it (or at least that's how i saw that post). That all those mechanics need to be seen not as binary but in degrees, and how it all must be considered in wider context. Just that, nothing more.

And, apparently, you do agree with that, as can be seen from your last response.

 

Yes, other than the one point mentioned at the time, I was agreeing with, and exploring the ideas mentioned in the post I first quoted. When discussing enjoyment context is always important.

[Malus.2184]

16 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

The last sentence in the post I quoted says, "objectively feels..."

I see it now, thanks, I've corrected it to "subjectively" as it should had been in the first place. Managerd to striketrough the "objectively" so it's still there.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Malus.2184

[Dante.1508]

On 4/24/2022 at 2:40 PM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

It's a bit harder for big meta events like this.  The primary obstacle in instanced content is keeping track of who can do what across countless alts.  The primary obstacle with doing this in the overworld is player cooperation.  I can't kick people from the map in the overworld, so I'm stuck working with whomever shows up.  This includes...

• Players who don't know what "roles" are and are afraid to ask.
• Players who expect to be carried through content and let other people handle it.
• Players who lie about what they do for fear that everyone else will hate them for not fulfilling a particular role
• Players who are so ill-informed they don't even know that they're being carried.
• Players who have chat channels turned off and don't read/respond.
• Players who are too intoxicated in order to accurately grasp what is going on.
• Players who will exclusively play "DPS" and wont change their builds for what is needed (though to be fair, profession-specific achievements make this Anet's fault, too).
• Players who refuse to cooperate because they don't like being told what to do.
• Players who don't know what squads are and don't have grid mode enabled.
• Trolls who will specifically try to antagonize maps into failure.
• Players who do not care about success at all and are happy to fail over and over again for some reason.
• Players running RNG builds who truly do not understand buildcraft at all.

This was a problem I had for Serpent's Ire during it's difficult eras (after chrono phantasm nerf, before EMPs).  Prep time for that event, between recruiting and explanations, took half an hour.  It was... unending, furious typing to explain to a bunch of randos how to split up and what CC was.  And yet... they failed to do it so many times.  Dragon's End has a similar issue.  All of the good squads I join have a squad message asking joiners to organize themselves based on role.  Yet, every time, anywhere from 1/3rd to 1/2 of the squad just sits in group 1 and never organizes themselves into DPS/Alac/Quickness.  When asked, no matter how directly (even in direct message), they do not respond.  And then... they die to the fist slam attack.

I fit quite a lot of those.. not all on purpose either mostly because i play solo so i tend to avoid metas in general.

Also why would i need to change my build and skills just for a meta event that i need for a turtle mount.. I mean c'mon i'd spend all my gold to build some meta build that'll never use again if i ever do get the egg.. Shows how messed up GW2 has become with all this meta garbage and obsessive hardcore direction..

On 4/26/2022 at 2:16 AM, yann.1946 said:

Well they are creating strike CM's. 🙂

I don't even know what that is...

I don't know what my role is and i've been playing Gw2 for 9 years.. I grab a build that people say is good in pve open world, i buy or make the weapons, gears, sigils and runes and i use it, if i like it i use it till it no longer works. then i rinse repeat.. If it doesn't work i try another less successful build until i find one that works.

I seldom change skills because it would mean the build gets messed up. I do not do math, i do not do rotations or fight dummies, i do not do boons and stuff unless the build does it for me.

I play the game to kill $#%& and follow the stories etc. I'm not in game to be a hardcore meta person.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Dante.1508

[yann.1946]

23 minutes ago, Dante.1508 said:

I don't even know what that is...

Challenge modes for strikes. They released on for the aetherblade one already. These are supposed to be raid level difficulty.

23 minutes ago, Dante.1508 said:

I don't know what my role is and i've been playing Gw2 for 9 years.. I grab a build that people say is good in pve open world, i buy or make the weapons, gears, sigils and runes and i use it, if i like it i use it till it no longer works. then i rinse repeat.. If it doesn't work i try another less successful build until i find one that works.

I seldom change skills because it would mean the build gets messed up. I do not do math, i do not do rotations or fight dummies, i do not do boons and stuff unless the build does it for me.

I play the game to kill $#%& and follow the stories etc. I'm not in game to be a hardcore meta person.

 

[Huffinator.4598]

Just going off the title, I would say that is a fair percentage from my experiences. DE has changed enough to where any fully prepped squad can beat the meta. By fully prepped, I mean everybody gets together on a map EARLY to fully prep all areas of the map and get their 10% map bonus. (And fully stack up their Jade Off/Def boons, but that should be common practice on any Cantha map) As long as the commander balances out the three escorts (And the part where you have to kill bosses at the same time) with role assignments and talks about all the mechanics, you should be fine.

 

You would not believe the amount of lazy people I've run across who just want to pop in a map at the last minute and do the meta while not caring about the mechanics of the fight. I don't bother with those attempts at all if there are a lot of people like that in a particular time. I'll switch to other content to play or log off if I'm not in the mood to do anything else. Heck, ANet now gives you half the map prep bonus now for the final push to make it easier and less time consuming and I still see plenty of people that don't have the 10% map bonus by the time the final boss fight actually begins. If you are asking why I don't bother with those groups of people, its because I see the exact same behavior every time if I were to play through the whole event. Low dps, people dying to easily avoidable dragon attacks, ignoring the tail when we are not close to triggering the next stage of the fight, not bothering to kill bosses at the same time, etc. Basically, I know 100% without a doubt in my mind that the run will fail.

 

I have beaten the meta several times already, and will continue to do so when I am in the mood. I do not care about what build you play if I am commanding. No third party tools (Example: Discord) required either. The only catch with me is that if I am running things, I will find the freshest map instance, set up my squad and try to fill it up ASAP. You will NEVER find my group listed in the lfg tool if you are one of those people that waits until the last minute to join. It is my way of low-keying everyone to build up their map bonus and hasn't failed me yet. The worst trolling I have gotten was the dragon CC bar popping up with the tail at the same time a couple of times, but those attempts still resulted in a successful run, but with less time remaining than my average.

 

 

[The Boz.2038]

On 4/26/2022 at 3:57 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

DE is not "naturally" getting better. It's not even the nerfs either (the effect of those is not really felt by most squads). The win rate increases simply because the "weaker" players just stop coming to the event.

It is caused by performance issues. There are groups with near to zero winrate, and those with 90%+ winrate. What i don't see anymore are groups with or near the mentioned by Anet 60% winrate.

Source: I made it up.

[Gibson.4036]

14 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Source: I made it up.

On a forum where everyone is expressing their opinion, you expected this one post to have been based on a commissioned Gallup Poll? Or FOIA requested documents? Or on-the-record interviews with ArenaNet staff?

Edited April 29, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[AliamRationem.5172]

16 hours ago, Huffinator.4598 said:

Just going off the title, I would say that is a fair percentage from my experiences. DE has changed enough to where any fully prepped squad can beat the meta. By fully prepped, I mean everybody gets together on a map EARLY to fully prep all areas of the map and get their 10% map bonus. (And fully stack up their Jade Off/Def boons, but that should be common practice on any Cantha map) As long as the commander balances out the three escorts (And the part where you have to kill bosses at the same time) with role assignments and talks about all the mechanics, you should be fine.

 

You would not believe the amount of lazy people I've run across who just want to pop in a map at the last minute and do the meta while not caring about the mechanics of the fight. I don't bother with those attempts at all if there are a lot of people like that in a particular time. I'll switch to other content to play or log off if I'm not in the mood to do anything else. Heck, ANet now gives you half the map prep bonus now for the final push to make it easier and less time consuming and I still see plenty of people that don't have the 10% map bonus by the time the final boss fight actually begins. If you are asking why I don't bother with those groups of people, its because I see the exact same behavior every time if I were to play through the whole event. Low dps, people dying to easily avoidable dragon attacks, ignoring the tail when we are not close to triggering the next stage of the fight, not bothering to kill bosses at the same time, etc. Basically, I know 100% without a doubt in my mind that the run will fail.

 

I have beaten the meta several times already, and will continue to do so when I am in the mood. I do not care about what build you play if I am commanding. No third party tools (Example: Discord) required either. The only catch with me is that if I am running things, I will find the freshest map instance, set up my squad and try to fill it up ASAP. You will NEVER find my group listed in the lfg tool if you are one of those people that waits until the last minute to join. It is my way of low-keying everyone to build up their map bonus and hasn't failed me yet. The worst trolling I have gotten was the dragon CC bar popping up with the tail at the same time a couple of times, but those attempts still resulted in a successful run, but with less time remaining than my average.

 

 

You can blame the players if you like.  I think it's a failure of design that they require preparation time (consisting of repeating the same events over and over) for a meta that is already quite lengthy on its own. 

My personal opinion is that 2 hours dedicated to one event in open world is too long.  I prefer shorter events with optional prep like HoT did.  In fact, the one meta I don't really like is VB because it has 25 minutes of pointless copy/paste before the bosses spawn.  See a connection there?

If there must be a lengthy prep, then make it rewarding and avoid copy/paste or at least give it some sort of forward motion.  Drizzlewood is a good example of this.

[Dante.1508]

33 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

You can blame the players if you like.  I think it's a failure of design that they require preparation time (consisting of repeating the same events over and over) for a meta that is already quite lengthy on its own. 

My personal opinion is that 2 hours dedicated to one event in open world is too long.  I prefer shorter events with optional prep like HoT did.  In fact, the one meta I don't really like is VB because it has 25 minutes of pointless copy/paste before the bosses spawn.  See a connection there?

If there must be a lengthy prep, then make it rewarding and avoid copy/paste or at least give it some sort of forward motion.  Drizzlewood is a good example of this.

Plus for all that work the rewards are absolute crap, even the turtle is pretty useless outside of looking good in LA.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Hesione.9412]

17 hours ago, Huffinator.4598 said:

Just going off the title, I would say that is a fair percentage from my experiences. DE has changed enough to where any fully prepped squad can beat the meta. By fully prepped, I mean everybody gets together on a map EARLY to fully prep all areas of the map and get their 10% map bonus. (And fully stack up their Jade Off/Def boons, but that should be common practice on any Cantha map) As long as the commander balances out the three escorts (And the part where you have to kill bosses at the same time) with role assignments and talks about all the mechanics, you should be fine.

 

There is a thread, in which I have participated, that points out how frequently Soo-Won swaps sides. I was in a meta where we easily lost at least 2 minutes to this mechanic along with others that repeatedly occurred - e.g. two bites, one immediately after the other had finished. We won, but with possibly 5 seconds to spare.

 

This meta can still fail because of the RNG over Soo-Won's behaviour.