The reason untamed "sucks"

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

Let's be honest- beyond Unnatural Traversal+GS2, Forest's Fortification (because that elite is busted and anet knows it), Fervent Force, and the Unleash Pet Teleport + Drake Tail Swipe, and some unleash ambushes, Untamed is pretty bad from a design standpoint. It could use more love to be more like the other elite specs in power, since the other elite specs aren't going to be toned down any time soon. 

 

The pet hate bubble, Pet Unleash #1 being an instant blind, Pet Unleash #2 being a blast finisher, direct pet control...yes total mess.  No way to keep up with any other EoD elite, despite eating Mechanist for breakfast, holding on-point vs. Bladesworn, ignoring Spectre, destroying all but the best Catalysts, etc.  

 

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

And a new set of animations, with all the cantrips  being practically instant and no tells it must be a lot of fun playing against it.

 

You've never played against an Untamed?

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

Let's be honest- beyond Unnatural Traversal+GS2, Forest's Fortification (because that elite is busted and anet knows it), Fervent Force, and the Unleash Pet Teleport + Drake Tail Swipe, and some unleash ambushes, Untamed is pretty bad from a design standpoint. It could use more love to be more like the other elite specs in power, since the other elite specs aren't going to be toned down any time soon. 

That's like half the Skills/Traits so I would say that is a win for me. Untamed was made for Fervent Force and when you play with a lack of stuns (Greatsword and Longbow) the other 2 Traits become very attractive. 
I think people are just salty because they cant pull Soulbeast numbers but at least you don't die to a breeze.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Psycoprophet.8107]

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yes and no. The GW2 interpretation of a ranger is fairly clearly pet-based, and Aragorn would probably be a Warrior in GW2 parlance (a warrior with survival skills, possibly Cooking or an elite specialisation that does not yet exist, but a warrior nonetheless). Soulbeast still carries the pet interaction, though, especially since you're not forced to permamerge.

A ranger is literally a warrior with survival skills lol in every fantasy version. Even in these forums it's been memmed many times, you wanna play a gs warr play ranger due to war sucking lol. I'm not saying gw2 doesn't have its own take on ranger and that it's not pet heavy, I'm just saying e specs are soposed there to be there to change things up and I read in a few post slamming anet for ranger not putting enough reliance on pets which doesn't fit ranger theme. I was just saying looking at aragon, legolos and dnd etc rangers don't always need pet to fit the theme so in my mind even if a spec released totally removing rangers pet in gw2 but all other things remained the class would still fit the bill.

 

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

The pet hate bubble, Pet Unleash #1 being an instant blind, Pet Unleash #2 being a blast finisher, direct pet control...yes total mess.  No way to keep up with any other EoD elite, despite eating Mechanist for breakfast, holding on-point vs. Bladesworn, ignoring Spectre, destroying all but the best Catalysts, etc.  

While I'm not entirely sure about catalyst, as I haven't fought many lately, I'm pretty sure you've just been fighting against bad mechs and bladesworns. Mechanist even with the projectile bubble is still really hard to take down due to the sheer output it can put out without said bubble along with the defensive tools it can reliably take due to how strong signets are on their own (including shift signet, 25s CD on a ground targeted shadowstep is not balanced), and bladesworn does enough damage to where they can decently reliably run out your own defensive tools until you inevitably crumble to their own burst and sustained damage, along with good flexibility with ranged and melee skills.

 

I'm not saying untamed needs to be leaps and bounds stronger, but a lot of the traits either 1. Boost only ranger skills (Unleash Pet skills are ranger skills but centered around your pet, cantrip barrier, etc) or 2. Boost both (ferocious Symbiosis, which is kind of boring and hard to notice the impact of). Reworking these to 1. Make it feel like your pet has more of an immediate impact rather than relying on drake tail swipe which will inevitably be nerfed again due to the pvp community being unable to handle a small burst from an AI along with potentially helping other core pets be stronger and more useful and 2. Feel better to use overall beyond the few worth taking (i.e. cleansing Unleash is near mandatory for the amount of cleansing you can do with it, and on the pve side Fervent Force is so broken it could single handedly get rangers entire kit nerfed before they rework and rebalance untamed)- the unleash pet skills don't feel good to use, in the same vein as using spirits for alacrity but with less overall impact, and they don't scale well with your stats when some of them probably should despite going off your own stats for some unexplained reason.

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

A ranger is literally a warrior with survival skills lol in every fantasy version. Even in these forums it's been memmed many times, you wanna play a gs warr play ranger due to war sucking lol. I'm not saying gw2 doesn't have its own take on ranger and that it's not pet heavy, I'm just saying e specs are soposed there to be there to change things up and I read in a few post slamming anet for ranger not putting enough reliance on pets which doesn't fit ranger theme. I was just saying looking at aragon, legolos and dnd etc rangers don't always need pet to fit the theme so in my mind even if a spec released totally removing rangers pet in gw2 but all other things remained the class would still fit the bill.

 

If we want to be technical, Legolas wasn't even a ranger. While Faramir was. Rangers in Middle-Earth were Dunedain warriors that patrolled a wilderness region. But both of them ended up in heavy armour when a pitched battle was nigh. They also fought by skill at arms alone, without the nature magic stuff associated with the GW2 ranger. Aragorn knows how to brew a healing tincture, but that's used for treating a fever, not to grant regeneration in battle - in operation, that's closer to Cooking than a profession ability. Third Age Middle Earth is a fairly low-magic setting in general - most of the characters would be Warriors in GW2 parlance, and probably not max level either.

If we were to cast the net more widely across fantasy, I could find elementalists that don't operate by cycling between the elements, characters with mesmer-like abilities that don't summon harmful phantasms, warriors that can use any of their moves regardless of how far they are into a fight, and so on. Guild Wars 2 has its own conceptions as to the identity of its professions. Ranger's identity is that a portion of its strength comes from its bond with animals (or maybe sentient plants or whatever exotic pet the ranger happens to have), just like guardians have virtues and necromancers convert life force into shrouds. A significant portion of ranger traits and skills are built with that concept in mind, and thematically the reason they work with soulbeast is that they're still essentially invoking the beast within. 

Generally speaking, if you really don't want a pet, there's another profession that will cover the concept you have in mind, usually warrior or thief. Unless you're particularly attached to the specific skills and traits on ranger but, again, a lot of those are designed with the assumption that a pet is present.

Edited September 23, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Gotejjeken.1267]

7 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

While I'm not entirely sure about catalyst, as I haven't fought many lately, I'm pretty sure you've just been fighting against bad mechs and bladesworns. Mechanist even with the projectile bubble is still really hard to take down due to the sheer output it can put out without said bubble along with the defensive tools it can reliably take due to how strong signets are on their own (including shift signet, 25s CD on a ground targeted shadowstep is not balanced), and bladesworn does enough damage to where they can decently reliably run out your own defensive tools until you inevitably crumble to their own burst and sustained damage, along with good flexibility with ranged and melee skills.

We can always blame it on player skill disparity--but if we do, then there is no such thing as a good Mech.  As far as my experience, Mechanist is a good +1 to a fight, but if focused or in 1v1 situation it crumbles to literally any pressure.  Much like longbow ranger, dodge the burst, its ballgame.

Also, I said holding on point vs. Bladesworn--meaning kiting / decap / distracting.  Winning yes is a bit trickier but not impossible, I have a far harder time with good Spellbreaker's, and going to be doubly so after this next patch. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Aelin.9317]

I really like the idea of the Untamed of unleashing yourself and pets inner strength. When I was looking at what espec I wanted to use I did like the daggers and look of soulbeast but I don't want to be without my pet most of the time. Pet is why I am a ranger. So is the bow so even as untamed ik I will use it. 

I do wish untamed unlocked something other than a Hammer, it does not feel like it fits a ranger to me.

I hope they can make untamed more favourable to pick. Maybe fix the green goo it does to my pet, it hides how it looks and I don't like that. I think the pet should be tankier, that would be nice ^^

 

[Kaenaydar.5631]

6 hours ago, Aelin.9317 said:

I really like the idea of the Untamed of unleashing yourself and pets inner strength. When I was looking at what espec I wanted to use I did like the daggers and look of soulbeast but I don't want to be without my pet most of the time. Pet is why I am a ranger. So is the bow so even as untamed ik I will use it. 

I do wish untamed unlocked something other than a Hammer, it does not feel like it fits a ranger to me.

I hope they can make untamed more favourable to pick. Maybe fix the green goo it does to my pet, it hides how it looks and I don't like that. I think the pet should be tankier, that would be nice ^^

 

Same if they made it that the buff bouncing between you and the pet helped the pet. I think the class would be more welcomed in end game pve. People get so focused on DPS and ignore survivability and and adaptability when comes to end game. Reason i say adaptability is i find it very helpful in T4s and Recs where you got breakbars same with some strike missions. As i said i use a longbow/hammer power build. Favoring the longbow in combat and swapping when i feel like. So i go Ferocious Symbiosis in my build. I may not get huge DPS but i get better damage and DPS then i did core.

Untamed to me has the potential to being a pet class style for ranger. Given i feel Druids more a healer build. Soul Beast is more a remove the pet build. Where as Untamed how they described it was a pet and you partnership build. I may of misunderstood the video when came out but how it sounded to me.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Kaenaydar.5631

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

6 hours ago, Aelin.9317 said:

I really like the idea of the Untamed of unleashing yourself and pets inner strength. When I was looking at what espec I wanted to use I did like the daggers and look of soulbeast but I don't want to be without my pet most of the time. Pet is why I am a ranger. So is the bow so even as untamed ik I will use it. 

I do wish untamed unlocked something other than a Hammer, it does not feel like it fits a ranger to me.

I hope they can make untamed more favourable to pick. Maybe fix the green goo it does to my pet, it hides how it looks and I don't like that. I think the pet should be tankier, that would be nice ^^

 

Hammer was the weapon of choice for Rangers in GW1. Untamed is based upon the original Ranger class.

[Kaenaydar.5631]

11 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Hammer was the weapon of choice for Rangers in GW1. Untamed is based upon the original Ranger class.

That is fair but i think Guild Wars can be a bit more adaptive in other playstyles. I prefer the longbow myself and often use hammer sometimes. Kinda like the boss the master ranger in that one dungeon. Idk how many times ive seen deadeyes using duel pistols a class should be able to adapt you the players preferred weapon.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Kaenaydar.5631

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

8 hours ago, Kaenaydar.5631 said:

Same if they made it that the buff bouncing between you and the pet helped the pet. I think the class would be more welcomed in end game pve. People get so focused on DPS and ignore survivability and and adaptability when comes to end game. Reason i say adaptability is i find it very helpful in T4s and Recs where you got breakbars same with some strike missions. As i said i use a longbow/hammer power build. Favoring the longbow in combat and swapping when i feel like. So i go Ferocious Symbiosis in my build. I may not get huge DPS but i get better damage and DPS then i did core.

Untamed to me has the potential to being a pet class style for ranger. Given i feel Druids more a healer build. Soul Beast is more a remove the pet build. Where as Untamed how they described it was a pet and you partnership build. I may of misunderstood the video when came out but how it sounded to me.

Going ferocious symbiosis will just lead to lower overall DPS. What was your number? Survivability and adaptability mean nothing if 1. You don't so enough dps to clear the boss and 2. If you have to keep hitting the boss, you're not going to be as adaptable.

 

Fervent Force makes for the better DPS build even with the requirement to still be hitting something. FF doesn't build up, FS does. Not only that, but Untamed isn't adaptable enough to make the numbers work super well in most groups. A good DPS needs to have a good number AND be adaptable- survivability doesn't come into play as much in instanced PvE where this stuff matters, since you'll have a dedicated healer who (should) be doing their job. Untamed only has the good number, it's a lot less adaptable as some of the other things in the game.

[Zyreva.1078]

4 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

Going ferocious symbiosis will just lead to lower overall DPS. What was your number? Survivability and adaptability mean nothing if 1. You don't so enough dps to clear the boss and 2. If you have to keep hitting the boss, you're not going to be as adaptable.

I can deal more dmg with FS and so would most likely the vast majority of players. FF is only good if you can pull off the proper rotation and can actually hit the boss regulary with all your cc (some of which can miss very easily). A (power) FS build is easier to play and more forgiving when it comes to boss movement/mechanics and while the dmg isn't amazing it is good enough for like 99% of encounters in this game (30k+ benchmark). Ofc you could argue "just go slb, it does the same but better" - and that's true. But most players who want to stick with dps untamed instead of slb for whatever reason would be better off running FS instead of FF.

[Levetty.1279]

On 4/21/2022 at 1:32 PM, Lazze.9870 said:

God forbid one out of four specs (core included) is tailored more towards the other two game modes. Spellbreaker sat very well with people in PvP and WvW, warrior has relied on that spec in WvW ever since it came out.

Yet it's more important for guys like you to have four (core included) specs all topped up for PvE.

The best specs in pvp at the moment are also good at PvE. Absolutly 0 reason for thier to be specs that focus exclusively on PvP with so many traits skills and the possibility of balance splits.

 

Untamed isn't even that good in PvP in the first place.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Levetty.1279 said:

The best specs in pvp at the moment are also good at PvE. Absolutly 0 reason for thier to be specs that focus exclusively on PvP with so many traits skills and the possibility of balance splits.

 

Untamed isn't even that good in PvP in the first place.

It does fine in PvE and PvP.

[Levetty.1279]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

It does fine in PvE and PvP.

At least it isn't just the Mesmer forums you troll.

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

At least it isn't just the Mesmer forums you troll.

I gave up on that Forum, to many people live in the past when Mesmer dominated most gamemodes.

That and Untamed is just hands down better in most content, all except End-Game Instanced Content which I still use Mesmer there

Edited September 24, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Kaenaydar.5631]

6 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

I can deal more dmg with FS and so would most likely the vast majority of players. FF is only good if you can pull off the proper rotation and can actually hit the boss regulary with all your cc (some of which can miss very easily). A (power) FS build is easier to play and more forgiving when it comes to boss movement/mechanics and while the dmg isn't amazing it is good enough for like 99% of encounters in this game (30k+ benchmark). Ofc you could argue "just go slb, it does the same but better" - and that's true. But most players who want to stick with dps untamed instead of slb for whatever reason would be better off running FS instead of FF.

Exactly my logic that FF is only useful if all your weapons have a lot of ccs. Longbow doesnt so i went FS given its really my main weapon unless i need to break a bar. Then i swap to hammer to break bar or if im fighting a boss in melee range. When i build my characters i focus on how i play them not how others want me to play them. I am the player that uses runes of the eagle instead of scholar runes as well. My set up tends to work well for most end game content i play and how i play. If someone can make FF work with their playstyle cool however i want a build that works with whatever weapons i choose to use in a fight.

My combat style when i do use hammer is break bar while pets unleashed. Then i use my hammer unleashed which loses its ccs when unleashed until breakbar recovers.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Kaenaydar.5631

[Mell.4873]

45 minutes ago, Kaenaydar.5631 said:

Exactly my logic that FF is only useful if all your weapons have a lot of ccs. Longbow doesnt so i went FS given its really my main weapon unless i need to break a bar. Then i swap to hammer to break bar or if im fighting a boss in melee range. When i build my characters i focus on how i play them not how others want me to play them. I am the player that uses runes of the eagle instead of scholar runes as well. My set up tends to work well for most end game content i play and how i play. If someone can make FF work with their playstyle cool however i want a build that works with whatever weapons i choose to use in a fight.

My combat style when i do use hammer is break bar while pets unleashed. Then i use my hammer unleashed which loses its ccs when unleashed until breakbar recovers.

Yeah Longbow especially has a really good Unleashed skill for lowering it's cooldowns so it competes with Fervent Force. 

Longbow is one of those weapons you can create an entire build around much like Greatsword was for Soulbeast. In terms of Longbow Soulbeast vs Untamed, I would say Untamed is better since you can stay on Longbow forever. 

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Longbow is one of those weapons you can create an entire build around much like Greatsword was for Soulbeast. In terms of Longbow Soulbeast vs Untamed, I would say Untamed is better since you can stay on Longbow forever. 

Camping longbow is never optimal and if you do, soulbeast deals more dmg. Period. Untamed isn't better. But it is viable - because most content is very easy and doesn't require optimal builds.

[Sansar.1302]

On 9/23/2022 at 4:13 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

If we want to be technical, Legolas wasn't even a ranger. While Faramir was. Rangers in Middle-Earth were Dunedain warriors that patrolled a wilderness region. But both of them ended up in heavy armour when a pitched battle was nigh. They also fought by skill at arms alone, without the nature magic stuff associated with the GW2 ranger. Aragorn knows how to brew a healing tincture, but that's used for treating a fever, not to grant regeneration in battle - in operation, that's closer to Cooking than a profession ability. Third Age Middle Earth is a fairly low-magic setting in general - most of the characters would be Warriors in GW2 parlance, and probably not max level either.

If we were to cast the net more widely across fantasy, I could find elementalists that don't operate by cycling between the elements, characters with mesmer-like abilities that don't summon harmful phantasms, warriors that can use any of their moves regardless of how far they are into a fight, and so on. Guild Wars 2 has its own conceptions as to the identity of its professions. Ranger's identity is that a portion of its strength comes from its bond with animals (or maybe sentient plants or whatever exotic pet the ranger happens to have), just like guardians have virtues and necromancers convert life force into shrouds. A significant portion of ranger traits and skills are built with that concept in mind, and thematically the reason they work with soulbeast is that they're still essentially invoking the beast within. 

Generally speaking, if you really don't want a pet, there's another profession that will cover the concept you have in mind, usually warrior or thief. Unless you're particularly attached to the specific skills and traits on ranger but, again, a lot of those are designed with the assumption that a pet is present.

I find that only a few skills are pet oriented, been playing ranger for 10 years and still hope that they remove the pet love the class hate the pet

[draxynnic.3719]

33 minutes ago, Sansar.1302 said:

I find that only a few skills are pet oriented, been playing ranger for 10 years and still hope that they remove the pet love the class hate the pet

Every autoattack-capable weapon except spear has one. The entire command line, except the reworked "Protect Me!". Signet of Renewal active. Most core traitlines have at least one trait that assumes that a pet is present (and no, I'm not counting those that generate effectively identical effects on both the ranger and the pet).

You might not like it, but that's the theme ArenaNet has gone with. At least you have permamerged soulbeast.

[Kaenaydar.5631]

2 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Every autoattack-capable weapon except spear has one. The entire command line, except the reworked "Protect Me!". Signet of Renewal active. Most core traitlines have at least one trait that assumes that a pet is present (and no, I'm not counting those that generate effectively identical effects on both the ranger and the pet).

You might not like it, but that's the theme ArenaNet has gone with. At least you have permamerged soulbeast.

Shoot i always have pet search and rescue skill what i often do in everything is if someones downed and im in a fight have my pet revive them while i keep fighting. Other reason i took to Untamed more then Soul Beast i like being able to multi task in that regard if i need to.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Kaenaydar.5631

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Camping longbow is never optimal and if you do, soulbeast deals more dmg. Period. Untamed isn't better. But it is viable - because most content is very easy and doesn't require optimal builds.

Most of the Longbow damage especially in the open world comes from Barrage and you can lower the cooldown on Untamed to a silly degree.
Traited Longbow Barrage is 16 seconds cooldown, Unleashed skill lowers it by a further 3 seconds + 1 per extra target. If you want to trait Fervent force that is another 4 seconds every point-blank. Finally if you want to use Quick Draw that lowers it by another 10 seconds.
If you spam the rotation you can conceivably Barrage every 5-7 seconds.

Finally because of the high rate of fire, Forest Fortification can come off cooldown indefinitely.

[anduriell.6280]

14 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I gave up on that Forum, to many people live in the past when Mesmer dominated most gamemodes.

That and Untamed is just hands down better in most content, all except End-Game Instanced Content which I still use Mesmer there

Ah that explains a lot and why you write so many absurd comments. Look, the only way you can provide real feedback is to stop using the Wiki to balance it. 

Also OpenWorld PvE is not a good way to give suggestions about this class. More so if you use the wiki. 

[Zyreva.1078]

8 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Most of the Longbow damage especially in the open world comes from Barrage and you can lower the cooldown on Untamed to a silly degree.
Traited Longbow Barrage is 16 seconds cooldown, Unleashed skill lowers it by a further 3 seconds + 1 per extra target. If you want to trait Fervent force that is another 4 seconds every point-blank. Finally if you want to use Quick Draw that lowers it by another 10 seconds.
If you spam the rotation you can conceivably Barrage every 5-7 seconds.

Finally because of the high rate of fire, Forest Fortification can come off cooldown indefinitely.

And all of those traits lower your dmg output drastically compared to a properly build dps soulbeast. No need to spam barrage every few seconds when one is enough to mow down average open world trash mobs.

Also no need for Forest Fortification when camping safely at range.

Edited September 25, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907