[Spoilers] Some thoughts after finishing EoD

[Orthonen.9470]

Overall I thought the story was pretty good! Coming back I'm impressed by the overall design of the story of the Commander. I think the plot as a whole was excellent, and the storyline had an excellent conclusion. Having a lot of love for the maps, I loved doing the map completion for them, very fast and smooth, and the hearts did not feel as cumbersome as the ones in northern Tyria. I liked the fact that each character's dialogue had a natural feel to it, especially after Detective Rama called Minister Li an kitten. It's clear ArenaNet listened to the players requests to have characters with more character.

 

But there's a few things I can't seem to wrap my head around, I don't understand why there needs to be so much emphasis on the LGBT light and political dogma inside of the story; it was really cringe to have it crammed into the story at the occasions they came up. Especially the Mr. Mom antics from Taimi about Joon's Husband that one actually made me want to leave the story faster (big oof). I feel there is an aggressive over representation of the LGBT stuff in there, that it appears to push the game as a means to express and push political views. Personally I don't agree with doing this in a game, mostly because it has to do with the fact that the idea behind playing video games is to escape reality, not get more of it. Trust me when I say when you go woke, you can in fact go broke, I would not be surprised if the number of active players plummeted after this stunt. 

 

There were moments when I couldn't take my Male Norn seriously, for instance when after landing on Shing Jea Island my Norn somehow equated the boatman's question "are people where you're from as tall as you are" to the boatman asking (as if to offend) if Norns are all the same height...? ????????????????? What? I asked right at that moment if my character was straight up dumb. Then Detective Rama talks about how his first kiss was in this tunnel we had to pass through, and he tells my Norn to not get any ideas, I was like, I wasn't thinking that at all bud, commander please tell him. Please? Also, the hearts are asking my already Male Norn if I want to cosplay a female, or neither Speaker.....? WHY? 

 

Joon's character was just dumb, here you have a talented, brilliant jade scientist, working against the commander to oppress the only kind dragon left! WHY? What part of a dragon volunteering itself to be imprisoned for as long as Soo-Won did is acceptable? Like I felt awful at the end Soo-Won saying she spent most of her time alone simply because Joon, well yeah of course when you volunteer to willingly put yourself in jail that's literally the price! It tore me up a little that this dragon literally died at the end, it truly was an awful way to go out...alone like that. So not only is Joon enslaving her husband to be the mom of the household, but she imprisoned this innocent dragon, with no direction to at least help find a way to stop abusing the free will of the dragon, only to prolong the abuse of the dragon, by attempting to continue filtering its magic? That is grade A animal abuse. I'm sorry but that in all levels is F'd up.

 

Why does Canach sound different? Why is he all the sudden a party maniac lazying about on his earnings from gambling on the commander? He's not this witty amiable anti hero personality he used to be, it's just gross what Anet did to him. GROSS.

 

Had it not been for everything else the expansion as well as the game has to offer, I probably would've left. The fights were super fun, the achievements still can be a pain in the neck to complete, the lore and collections are amazing. It's very clear the artists and level designers really know what they're doing. I especially LOVE being a Willbender, that to me has been the main game changer for sure! The mobs are fun to fight, there is danger, but not too much '1 shot and I will kill you' mobs in the pve side. On top of that interacting with the community to make and earn gold has boosted that even further, soon I will be done with my Aurene's Bite.

 

My hope is that in the future, this political rhetoric ceases to continue in game, the conclusion made it feel that this is in fact the end of Guild Wars 2, it's pretty evident as the expansion only showed that they are willing to take aggressive risks. Not to mention, were going to have a MASSIVE content drought. MASSIVE. Our next content is coming after JUNE! HOLY SMOKES. That's major, we're going to have an economic depression in guild wars. Gold is already becoming insanely valuable to have, because the GDP is getting lower and lower. To conclude this, I give End of Dragons a 3.8/5. In comparison I rated HoT-3.5/5, LS3-2/5, Path of Fire a 4/5, LS4-3/5, Icebrood 3.7/5. Let me know your thoughts!

 

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Aridon.8362

[Caitmonster.9036]

Canach *sounds* different because his voice actor changed. They couldn't get John DiMaggio to reprise his role, likely because of scheduling issues, so they cast Matthew Mercer (Norn Male PC) instead. It's a little jarring and he does sound like he's just doing a slightly shadier version of Gilmore from Critical Role, but I'd rather have *some* Canach than *no* Canach at all.

As for his character change, he's been in casinos trying to gamble and earn riches since before POF if I recall. In EOD he finally finds that monetary success and even at the end (I don't remember the exact dialogue, so forgive me for paraphrasing) Canach admits it's a hollow feeling that he isn't totally content with, and mentions how he probably won't be sticking around even after making his own pleasure den in Arborstone. It's possible we'll see him as a sassy anti-hero again eventually.

Or not. The ending of EOD did seem to have a little bit of finality to it. Maybe we'll get a whole new cast, maybe a bunch will make a return in LS6+. We'll have to see.

As for some of the dialogue... the Norn comment on the fishing boat did bug me just a bit, but I also played it on a Sylvari and he makes a comment asking my commander if he eats food or just photosynthesizes. Sylvari commander stiffly replies back that, "No, we eat and drink the same as everyone else," And the fisher voices some disbelief. Thought it was actually kinda funny. Haven't played on other races to test yet but I think Norn just got the short end of the stick on that race-specific instance of dialogue.

And when it comes to the LGBT representation, it's cool they're doing it and it doesn't bother me any, but I can't help but feel that some of it is just a *little* clumsy and ham-fisted. Especially Yao, introducing themself to the MinSec agent at the end of the meta event. Like, great, but why specify you're agender? You're a Jade tech genius saving NKC from a citywide power outage, what does your gender identity have to do with that? The Marj/Kas stuff at the end was a little wince-inducing because of how over the top it was, meanwhile the subtle hints of the Taimi-Gorrik-Ankka love triangle and how agitated Taimi got when Gorrik was in danger, and even the casual comments throughout the story were a lot more enjoyable to me. I dunno, maybe I just ship Taimi and Gorrik a little too hard. 😆

Though I would really love some kind of emote with that adorable kiss animation used at the end after they propose. For reasons.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Caitmonster.9036

[Astralporing.1957]

Technically, we've also got Rox getting herself a boyfriend. But then noone remembers Rox anyway.

[Zok.4956]

47 minutes ago, Caitmonster.9036 said:

The Marj/Kas stuff at the end was a little wince-inducing because of how over the top it was

At least it was not the "I love you" - "I love you more" - "No, I love you more" teen-story level it was in the past.

[phandaria.4891]

The new LGBT couple is a little cringy. I much prefer the dynamics of Caithe and Faolain. None of the Dragon's Watch member appeals to me, except maybe the old gang and Canach. I'd rather have personalities like Canach and Sayida appear more often.

But the story is a big step up from Taimi's kitten pull solutions. (This is a legit trope: kitten Pull - TV Tropes)

 

3 hours ago, Aridon.8362 said:

Joon's character was just dumb, here you have a talented, brilliant jade scientist, working against the commander to oppress the only kind dragon left! WHY? What part of a dragon volunteering itself to be imprisoned for as long as Soo-Won did is acceptable? Like I felt awful at the end Soo-Won saying she spent most of her time alone simply because Joon, well yeah of course when you volunteer to willingly put yourself in jail that's literally the price! It tore me up a little that this dragon literally died at the end, it truly was an awful way to go out...alone like that. So not only is Joon enslaving her husband to be the mom of the household, but she imprisoned this innocent dragon, with no direction to at least help find a way to stop abusing the free will of the dragon, only to prolong the abuse of the dragon, by attempting to continue filtering its magic? That is grade A animal abuse. I'm sorry but that in all levels is F'd up.

To be fair,  in the conversation at end of DE meta, it is mentioned that she has existed long before any dragon and any other living being. I imagine, Joon's lifetime merely felt like a few seconds for her. So the imprisonment is nothing compared to her time alone as the oldest sentient being in Tyria.

It is explained that Soo Won knows her time is almost up, she volunteered to extend her time before being consumed by the void. Assuming Joon and Kuunavang conversed with her from time to time, probably her time in the reactor was more enjoyable than the time she spent truly alone.

She passed away after meeting her great grand daughter, and it's only because the reactor sapped the void from her and gave her more time. So I assume she died without any regret. Also, she didn't pass away alone, she was with everyone.

Edited April 21, 2022 by phandaria.4891

[phandaria.4891]

After you finish the story, it becomes clear that the teaser trailers Anet posted years ago are from Soo Won's perspective.

Trailer 1: Soo Won talking to Kuunavang before she volunteered herself.

 

Trailer 2: Soo Won in the reactor, talking to Joon + Soo Won's vision.

 

Amazing trailers! *Chef's Kiss*

[KeoLegend.5132]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Technically, we've also got Rox getting herself a boyfriend. But then noone remembers Rox anyway.

who?

[Linken.6345]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Technically, we've also got Rox getting herself a boyfriend. But then noone remembers Rox anyway.

Well she said she got a boyfriend but did we get to see him?

[Astralporing.1957]

7 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Well she said she got a boyfriend but did we get to see him?

Maybe it's for the better that we didn't?

[Bobby Stein.3612]

Thanks, everyone for sharing your thoughts and feedback regarding End of Dragons. It represents more than two years of work by the development team, and the conclusion of almost 10 years of story and character development. We poured our hearts into it and I hope that shows. We appreciate your support over the years.

 

Regarding the questions about LGBTQ+ representation and “political dogma” I want to say a few things about our approach to story, and also about who we are as people. For starters, ArenaNet and NCSoft are diverse and inclusive places of business. Our employees come from all walks of life, races, ethnicities, gender identities, nationalities, and political leanings. We reflect the diversity of who we are in our work, and build games and communities that welcome everyone.

 

By extension, the creative choices we make reflect that inclusive nature. To you, it may feel “forced” or “political” to have these themes or a literal handful of characters in our games because you can’t relate to them, but to us—and to many of our fans who have thus far felt excluded in life and in media—it’s simply reflecting the breadth and diversity of humanity. Telling stories that need to be told, or simply acknowledging that underrepresented folks *exist*.

 

Marjory and Kasmeer’s story began way back in 2013, and they’ve accompanied the Commander almost every step of the way leading up to the climax of the dragon story. We felt it important to evolve their relationship over the years and bring that arc to a close in a satisfying and humanistic way. It’s fine if you can’t relate to their particular story. Creative choices will appeal to some, but not to all. That’s the very nature of art. But it wasn’t done to “score political points” or “further an agenda”. We literally just wanted to tell the story of two people who found each other during an incredibly difficult time in their world. That, at the end of the day, love matters. And since those two were among the longest-running characters with some of the most screen time, telling that story through them was the natural choice.

 

If it makes you uncomfortable because you didn’t see your relationship reflected onscreen it its place, we get it. But imagine what it must feel like to always feel unseen, ignored, or villainized? That’s why this kind of representation matters. Tyria’s a big world that has room for all sorts of characters and relationships, including yours, but also including theirs.

[GoldenTiger.4706]

Thanks for that response, Bobby, and for your work on inclusivity ingame. More representation ingame is always appreciated.

[Caitmonster.9036]

Honestly, I was less impressed by the LGBTQ+ representation and more impressed by all those who had jade tech limb replacements and other prosthetics. Up until now we've had... Taimi with her muscular dystrophy and a couple of characters with eyepatches, maybe? *That* was a nice touch and kudos to Arenanet for that. Would honestly like to see Charr doing the same with their grungy scrapped-together tech or Asura with magitech limbs in the future too.

 

That being said... Taimi/Gorrik *when*?

[Westenev.5289]

I've always felt like Kas/Jory were always  unseen/ignored/villainised. It might be because they rarely got screen time, dropping off the face of the map for whole living world seasons at a time, but when they did appear, it was always with an annoying bickering at the wrong time and place. Often they would exist soley for drama, to the point where you'd forget what their role on the team actually was. They were fine individually (Kas in PoF, Jory playing detective in Lws5 ep 0) but this relationship has been toxic since lws2 (when I met these characters), so I just can't see the wedding as a happy ending.

 

EDIT: Playing through LWS1, I wonder if Kas/Jory's ending in EoD would have been happier if they continued to correspond with the Commander through letters on their many, many off-episodes (or off season, in regards to LWS4). Kas, Jory, Rox and Braham were all characters that simply dropped off the face of Tyria for a good portion of Living world. If we want to see a happy ending in an expansion/Living World, it needs to feel earned.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Westenev.5289

[Kyx.4380]

I may or may not agree on some points that the OP made about the fact that some of this representation may or may not feel forced. I think the kas/jory thing was going on since a while, so while i do have some.. exceptions to how it was executed, all in all it's ok.

Also, side note: as a man, i don't really feel "included" in a positive way at all, because virtually every event seems to portray my gender as either dimwitted/bigoted/coward and generally just worse than every other gender (on top of my mind i can think of kestrel zuru, officer roz, and worse villain ever minister li) the only exception being old characters and rama. So long for not having anyone feeling villanized, i suppose.

 

Anyway, then.. then.. there's the yao situation... and i'm not talking about the character itself, i'm talking about the meta and how it was done: there's two characters, who never met before, after the boss is dead they finally get to present to eachother and exchange names.. and then yao just casually drops "hi im yao and i'm agender"... which is the epitomy of forced and ham-fisted, because, it totally doesnt feel natural at all. I never met someone who would greet like that *on the very first time* . And i speak from experience, both for myself and others i met. Nobody ever came out like that (even if it was.. let's say, obvious) while meeting for the first time, such things come *after* you get to know eachother, not right off the bat. But, idk, maybe things work differently in a bubble.

 

The right way to do it would be like its done in events: there's lots (and i mean, lots) of npcs of non-specified genders in various events (and you can easily get it by the ample usage of "they"); and i think that the fact that their gender isnt specified it's ok, because, you dont know them, and they dont know you.. rather than have it done the way yao was done.

I wish someone from anet would address this, but i doubt i'll happen (my thinking is, cuz they know it was badly made)

 

 

[Bobby Stein.3612]

33 minutes ago, Kyx.4380 said:

Also, side note: as a man, i don't really feel "included" in a positive way at all, because virtually every event seems to portray my gender as either dimwitted/bigoted/coward and generally just worse than every other gender (on top of my mind i can think of kestrel zuru, officer roz, and worse villain ever minister li) the only exception being old characters and rama. So long for not having anyone feeling villanized, i suppose.

This is helpful feedback. Thanks for sharing.

[Tails.9372]

15 hours ago, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

it may feel “forced” or “political” to have these themes

I don't think that having these themes / characters is the actually problem here. The main reason why people feel like its forced is because of how "in the face" most of them are (and I'm not talking about MCs here). Take Yao for example: how many people irl introduce themselfs by telling you about their sexual preferences? Exectly. If this kind of trivia was more in the background e.g. in Yaos case in a letter at Eloras workplace then barely anyone would have taken issue with it.

[Elrey.5472]

As far as I understand the need in US to represent non-binary people (where the movement is more standard), please Bobby consider that including non-binary characters creates a monumental issue of understanding sentences in another languages. In english you just need to change a pronoun and the entire sentence changes its meaning and makes sense. In spanish, almost ALL words have a female or male gender, so you end up changing so much words that it loses the meaning.
I legit had a very hard time trying to understand what Yao was saying because they made up lot and lot of words. Literally I minimized the game and went to the official forums to report translation failures. The game managed to break the immersion and made me minimize to check something out of the game. And you know what I found? A thread in the official spanish forum with dozens of persons as confused as me. If that's not an issue for storytelling I don't know what could it be a bigger issue.

Just to help you understand that issue, let me put some examples of how NB words work in my language:

• English: She is a very cool character
• English NB: They are a very cool character  <-- (I think, I'm not a native speaker)
• Spanish: Ella es un personaje muy chulo
• Spanish NB: Elle es une personaje muy chule <--  chule (as a noun) doesn't exists, nor it does "elle", and "une" has another meaning, which is to bind stuff together, instead of to enumerate something.
  If I translate it now back to English it says "Elle is bind character very cool" because as you know, Elle could be a name.

There in this silly example I had to made up 2 words for a simple sentence of 6 words, and create a new meaning for a word which already has another meaning, 50% of a sentence of 6 words changed and it already completely lost its meaning. If I gave you a longer example you would not even understand what I'm trying to explain.

Changing more than 50% of the words in a sentence create chaos, because in spanish "a character", which translates as "un personaje" uses a male representation for the word character. It's just how it goes. The rivers, houses, terrain, trees, animals, databases, skills, colors and virtually EVERYTHING are male or female nouns in spanish. It's the natural way of the language and it has been like that for centuries. It's a very rich language that it has been polished to today's standard.

As I hope you understand with this post, being inclusive isn't as easy as "I change a word and I am inclusive with someone" like it happens with the english language. In spanish when you try to be inclusive you are creating gibberish and confussion in a sentence where you can mostly understand only 10 out of 30 words. And when it happens in 3-4 consecutive sentences, then your readers are literally unable to follow up the story due to gibberish (it happened to me) .

Food for though.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Elrey.5472
better explained

[Alek Seven.2374]

30 minutes ago, Elrey.5472 said:

In spanish, almost ALL words have a female or male gender, so you end up changing so much words that it loses the meaning.

Even Non-Binary is translated as " No binario" and "No binaria".

 

Ironic since Non-Binary is supposed to mean neither male or female.

[Tanek.5983]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

I don't think that having these themes / characters is the actually problem here. The main reason why people feel like its forced is because of how "in the face" most of them are (and I'm not talking about MCs here). Take Yao for example: how many people irl introduce themselfs by telling you about their sexual preferences? Exectly. If this kind of trivia was more in the background e.g. in Yaos case in a letter at Eloras workplace then barely anyone would have taken issue with it.

I'm not saying you are wrong because I might not recall Yao's introduction that precisely. I am curious, though,a nd will pay better attention the next time through. Where, exactly, was this? All I remember is someone else using "they" when referring to Yao and I only remember that because it took me a beat to catch it the first time.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

It's not a big deal or nothing but it does come off a bit cringe. 

[Deekkru.5128]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

I don't think that having these themes / characters is the actually problem here. The main reason why people feel like its forced is because of how "in the face" most of them are (and I'm not talking about MCs here). Take Yao for example: how many people irl introduce themselfs by telling you about their sexual preferences? Exectly. If this kind of trivia was more in the background e.g. in Yaos case in a letter at Eloras workplace then barely anyone would have taken issue with it.

 

If you're talking about the end of Kaineng's meta, Yao describes their gender, not their sexual preferences. ("I'm Yao— your local, mostly friendly agender engineer.") As someone with a fair number of friends outside the gender binary, this rings pretty true to my irl experiences. They want you to know who they are, and to gender them correctly. For me, having Yao be so up-front felt authentic and like the information was really being embraced rather than hidden. I really enjoyed it.

[Tails.9372]

52 minutes ago, Deekkru.5128 said:

If you're talking about the end of Kaineng's meta, Yao describes their gender, not their sexual preferences. ("I'm Yao— your local, mostly friendly agender engineer.") As someone with a fair number of friends outside the gender binary, this rings pretty true to my irl experiences. They want you to know who they are, and to gender them correctly. For me, having Yao be so up-front felt authentic and like the information was really being embraced rather than hidden. I really enjoyed it.

Even if we're just talking about gender identity the point still stands, most people don't introduce themselves with "Hi, my gender identity is ...". As I said for many people getting bombarded with random trivia is just annoying, especially if it's a new character they don't care about. If people want to know more about a character then they can always look into it and that's the point where it's good have things available that tell you more about the character in question.

[Tanek.5983]

2 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Even if we're just talking about gender identity the point still stands, most people don't introduce themselves with "Hi, my gender identity is ...". As I said for many people getting bombarded with random trivia is just annoying, especially if it's a new character they don't care about. If people want to know more about a character then they can always look into it and that's the point where it's good have things available that tell you more about the character in question.

I'm not sure I'd call one word "getting bombarded with random trivia". Unless there is more to it than that line?

[Rose Solane.1027]

The relationship between Kasmeer and Marjory had some rocky moments and they both had some difficult moments in life where their partner wasn't capable of supporting them. But I think they both found some peace with life in this expansion and are now ready for the next step in their relationship. I really think that ArenaNet did a great job with their story in EoD. Woke, politically correct? No, just a good story. I think their story is much better developed than that of many other important characters.

[Tails.9372]

20 minutes ago, Tanek.5983 said:

I'm not sure I'd call one word "getting bombarded with random trivia". Unless there is more to it than that line?

In this particular case it's more about the pattern itself, if enough people of a specific group are doing it it becomes rather noticeable regardless if it's just one word. Same if every Asura would tell you about their IQ uppon introduction (or every Charr about how many enemies they have killed in battle).

Edited April 22, 2022 by Tails.9372