[Suggestions ] Just listen to this guy

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

1 minute ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I've seen Teapot arrogantly laugh, crow and belittle people for not knowing some obscure game esoterica enough times to reinforce my opinion of him.

And I've seen him humble, admitting he's wrong, etc.

Seems genuine to me, I'd call props on not trying to fake who he is.

[firedragon.8953]

Yeah, I like him as a content creator. He invites other players and content creators and has round-table discussions, which is a format I don't see often with GW2 content. He is quite focused on the end-game content (makes sense since he's a veteran), but offers a perspective outside of what many players experience/understand.

I agree with a lot of his "improvements" (e.g., Anet completing a replayable LW1 to enhance new player experience) and disagree with some of them (e.g., boon standardization). But, alas, not agreeing with someone 100% is normal (or it should be).

With that being said, I hope Anet does listen to him (it seems they do) since he is one of the more proactive community leaders in game and is obviously passionate about the game and making it enjoyable for a decent proportion of the community.

[Andy.5981]

Erm no.

He has verbal diarrhea and could sum up most of what he says in about a tenth of the time. He has a manner of speaking for which us British people have invented many descriptive words, most of which would either not get through the bad word filter or would get me banned.

I would rather suck a nettle whilst simultaneously urinating on an electric fence than listen to what he says.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Andy.5981

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

A lot of people mistake streamers and influencers for normal people or friends. The moment they make money with their channels, they turn into little companies. They will say and create what ever earns them money. 

If their content helps you or fits your mindest, there is nothing wrong about enjoying it. You are free to tell us that you like it and why. But just because you 100 % agree with them, does not mean that the rest of us does so as well. And it also does not mean that this content has any kind of special credibility, what classifies it as a blueprint for future game-content. If ANet takes that content seriously, that is entrepreneurial risk. It can work out or detonate in their hands. They know what they are dealing with and how high their own stakes are. I hope so at least ...

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

8 hours ago, Andy.5981 said:

Erm no.

He has verbal diarrhea and could sum up most of what he says in about a tenth of the time. He has a manner of speaking for which us British people have invented many descriptive words, most of which would either not get through the bad word filter or would get me banned.

I would rather suck a nettle whilst simultaneously urinating on an electric fence than listen to what he says.

Teapot's mere presence exposes GW2's toxicity, as seen here, folks. 

He's right on this one, too, btw: the more "casual" GW2 community is incredibly toxic on average. They absolutely cannot take any form of criticism or discuss things in a civil manner. Time and time again, we witness this these days; hence, the controversies as of recent (i.e. EoD Dragon's End meta).

Why would you insult Teapot's person, instead of targeting his argument? Does that make for a good exchange in your opinion? And look at the amount of like/dislike ratio this guy has. Amazing.

EDIT: also, Teapot's intelligence clearly aggravates people, and his "verbal diarrhea" is actually one proof of his above-average (general, and particularly vs players) intelligence.

Edited May 4, 2022 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[LordOfDeath.7420]

"Teapot's mere presence exposes GW2's toxicity, as seen here, folks. 

He's right on this one, too, btw: the more "casual" GW2 community is incredibly toxic on average."

 

I could not use better words than these.

Seems like that my words "he truly brings problems to the sunlight" gets confused with "he is right on how to balance stuff and remediate".

I never said that.

I said "The balacing stuff is another different step and the really hard part, which could ask for help and more opinions" - speaking to the devs

 

I mean, there is a clear difference and is not that hard to understand ahah

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by LordOfDeath.7420

[Zok.4956]

9 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

You cannot base an argument around this. You simply cannot.

You should have read the complete sentence instead of just picking some words that trigger some response.

 

9 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Teapot is right about a lot of things, but - as he himself admits - he's also biased to a degree and most likely wrong about others.

Sure, every player has an opinion and is biased. I wrote that already. I don't care what a streamer says somewhere else when he streams and I don't care talking about him. If he wants to engage with the forum community, he can join the forum.

It's fine if you are a fan of Teapot or some other streamer, but I think in the GW2-forum it would be better for a discussion to talk about GW2 and not about what some streamers say about GW2 (without giving specific statements).

If you want to discuss something about the game here in the forum, please do so. But just referring to a streamer seems pointless for a constructive discussion.

[Zok.4956]

47 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

They absolutely cannot take any form of criticism or discuss things in a civil manner.

 

47 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Why would you insult Teapot's person, instead of targeting his argument?

 

Insulting is not acceptable.

But is there some criticism or argument here in the forum about GW2 to talk about without looking at his streams/videos? Because at the moment it actually looks more like a meta-discussion about how some here like/dislike him. Or one could think it's just some click-bait to get him more viewers.

[vares.8457]

1 hour ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

the more "casual" GW2 community is incredibly toxic on average.

I couldn’t agree more, we see this behavior every day here on the forum. 

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

I've seen enough of Teapot's content to say with confidence that his statements about certain aspects of the game are just absolutely wrong but he will still vehemently defend them. 

I've seen some massive paragraphs of people critiquing his views on the Dragon's End meta that had valid points but he never actually listened to those critiques and just assumed people were hating on him and apparently that came out as "Toxicity". 

The problem with people like Teapot is that even if they are good at the game, their perspectives have narrowed far too much to the point where they assume everyone should be on their level when there's far more to the community than just what he sees. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by ChronoPinoyX.7923

[mythical.6315]

23 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

GW2 has a very toxic and loud subcommunity of hardcore players

GW2 also has a very toxic and loud subcommunity of casual players as well. 

23 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

The "confused" reaction is also usually used as downvote option. A lot of players of the aforementioned subcommunity use that downvote option to vote against anything that could potentially harm the protected bubble they're playing in.

Indeed it is often used this way. It’s also used by a lot of people not related to that group you mentioned in the same manner. It’s not unique to just them. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by mythical.6315

[mindcircus.1506]

1 hour ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

He's right on this one, too, btw: the more "casual" GW2 community is incredibly toxic on average.

The truly casual player does not engage with the forums.

It's important to not paint an entire sizeable portion of the playerbase by the same brush as the truly toxic players on this forum invoking the work "casual" in self interest, entitlement, and attempts to wag the dog.

[Esorono.1039]

I rather his suggestions don't come into fruition. There really isn't many casual MMORPGs floating around, and I come here to avoid the raiding loop of other MMORPGs. Also this community gatekeeps way too hard, and the community is insufferable to play with in anything that requires an ounce of coordination. If they want to raid so much, WoW is still around, and so is FF14 which focus on raids to a fault. Do we actually need a large focus on it here too where the majority of the community just flat out doesn't really care for the content? If GW2 decides that if players want to stay viable they have to do raids like other games, I'd quit GW2 right there and then and not look back, and pick up something else, maybe Runescape, the quests there are fun at least.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

3 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

The truly casual player does not engage with the forums.

It's important to not paint an entire sizeable portion of the playerbase by the same brush as the truly toxic players on this forum invoking the work "casual" in self interest, entitlement, and attempts to wag the dog.

I wasn't implying I was merely including the forums on this. Also, have you looked at the "Helping New Players" -section?

My empirical experience is in line with this view, too, for whatever it matters.

[Raizel.8175]

14 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

GW2 also has a very toxic and loud subcommunity of casual players as well. 

Indeed it is often used this way. It’s also used by a lot of people not related to that group you mentioned in the same manner. It’s not unique to just them. 

Did you even read my post? The hardcore players I've talked about aren't those that take part in the majority of the content GW2 offers. The hardcore players I've talked about are those players who pretend to be "casual" since being "casual" is apparently particularly worth protecting - all that while often having several hundred posts on the forum which already disqualifies them from being "casual" in the first place (80/15/5 rule in online communities). They try to stay in their own protected "easy mode" bubble and often complain about content that requires people to put in some effort. They're those people who tell you that the game needs to hold everyones hand, that stats aren't explained well enough - someone literally wrote that "condition damage" increasing the damage your conditions do isn't obvious -, that you can't expect people to read traits and skills - something which is apparently particularly obscure, who are constantly complaining about GoBs being only available in WvW and about the lack of open world legendary armor. Those people who downvote you into hell if you objectively talk about and explain game mechanics or game design. These are the people who hold the game in a stranglehold because everything should always follow the lowest common denominator meaning any substantial change will always be bad.

17 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

I rather his suggestions don't come into fruition. There really isn't many casual MMORPGs floating around, and I come here to avoid the raiding loop of other MMORPGs. Also this community gatekeeps way too hard, and the community is insufferable to play with in anything that requires an ounce of coordination. If they want to raid so much, WoW is still around, and so is FF14 which focus on raids to a fault. Do we actually need a large focus on it here too where the majority of the community just flat out doesn't really care for the content? If GW2 decides that if players want to stay viable they have to do raids like other games, I'd quit GW2 right there and then and not look back, and pick up something else, maybe Runescape, the quests there are fun at least.

One of the main reasons why raids failed and the reason why you have so much drama is GW2s game design. GW2 is inherently antisocial because it doesn't force people to be social to begin with. That's why a substantial percentage of the playerbase is utterly unable to even use basic social skills - which is actually quite "visible" (if you can describe it that way" in DE. The game also had - for a long time - no decent gameplay progression which forced people to learn the basics of the game. That's why gatekeeping is that dominant in GW2 - people who only play GW2 probably don't even know that gatekeeping isn't really a thing - at least not in GW2s dimension - in other MMORPGs. Arena Net tried to implement said gameplay progression with EoD and certain people went utterly mad about it because it forces them to leave their comfort zone.

40 minutes ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

I've seen some massive paragraphs of people critiquing his views on the Dragon's End meta that had valid points but he never actually listened to those critiques and just assumed people were hating on him and apparently that came out as "Toxicity". 

People were also really toxic in this forum about changes proposed by the more hardcore audience. They simply wanted the event deleted instead of being made more fair. Currently, DE is perfectly fine and well balanced, some people are still hopping mad that the event still exists though.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

6 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

GW2 is inherently antisocial because it doesn't force people to be social to begin with.

This is a flaw which, by the way, could be partially fixed with heavier emphasis on the 'GUILD' -portion of Guild Wars. Something as meager as expanding guild mission rewards would help, for starters.

Playing in, and interacting within, a guild is the best way to play Guild Wars. Shocking.

Another thing is re-designing the early game experience, but Anet has - THANKFULLY - already confirmed they're at it, however small it is going to be. It is still the right direction to go.

Edited May 4, 2022 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[mindcircus.1506]

34 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

I wasn't implying I was merely including the forums on this. Also, have you looked at the "Helping New Players" -section?

The "toxicity" that is being blamed on casual players is largely due to the false rherotic and babyrage on these forums and to a lesser degree reddit.
Actual casual players don't engage with these.

By blaming the ugliness on casual players, you are just feeding into the label they choose to cloak themselves with and giving them credibility.
Actual casual players don't have post counts over 100 and argue for the firing of developers. They don't shout repeatedly "I'm casual, so Anet should do x".
 

Edited May 4, 2022 by mindcircus.1506

[Luci.7018]

12 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Teapot's mere presence exposes GW2's toxicity, as seen here, folks. 

He's right on this one, too, btw: the more "casual" GW2 community is incredibly toxic on average. They absolutely cannot take any form of criticism or discuss things in a civil manner. Time and time again, we witness this these days; hence, the controversies as of recent (i.e. EoD Dragon's End meta).

Why would you insult Teapot's person, instead of targeting his argument? Does that make for a good exchange in your opinion? And look at the amount of like/dislike ratio this guy has. Amazing.

EDIT: also, Teapot's intelligence clearly aggravates people, and his "verbal diarrhea" is actually one proof of his above-average (general, and particularly vs players) intelligence.

At least he is evolving with each passing day , while the rest of the Raiders won't . For example , he can see some problems with the LFG .

 

And i believe he said ,that the company should had removed the mount from the meta , while the rest of the community where spouting left and right "get good"

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Luci.7018

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

2 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

The "toxicity" that is being blamed on casual players is largely due to the false rherotic and babyrage on these forums forums and to a lesser degree reddit.
Actual casual players don't engage with these.

It really comes down to how you define casual and toxicity, these days and within this game's context. We can also look at the question from the general gaming perspective - where, imo, a lot of these players WOULD be labeled as casuals.

That's the definition I'm rolling with.

 

14 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Actual casual players don't have post counts over 100 and argue for the firing of developers.

You see this in the social media (and in real life all the time) - people who can't be qualified as "engaged" giving their say in various matters. Heck, it's one of the reasons America has such a bad public figure worship culture.

[DarkXi.3289]

16 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

This is just you exposing your own arrogance.

 

16 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Make a counter argument --> "You can't accept their opinion!" 

What?

 

The problem is not that one thinks that his argument is a valid one (which might or might not be). The problem is that he thinks his argument is the ONLY valid one. aNyWaY...

 

[mindcircus.1506]

2 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

It really comes down to how you define casual and toxicity, these days and within this game's context. We can also look at the question from the general gaming perspective - where, imo, a lot of these players WOULD be labeled as casuals.

These kind of semantic word games do not serve any real purpose.

[Raizel.8175]

51 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

Do we actually need a large focus on it here too where the majority of the community just flat out doesn't really care for the content? If GW2 decides that if players want to stay viable they have to do raids like other games, I'd quit GW2 right there and then and not look back, and pick up something else, maybe Runescape, the quests there are fun at least.

To iterate on this further: Yes, we need that kind of content since the game needs dedicated players who actually produce content for the game - be it builds for the community on sites like metabattle, guides pp.  on their own website or youtube or general content of the game on social media which also has the function of advertisement - just to name a few reasons. The main focus still is open world though. You just have to check fractal and raid releases on one side and open world releases on the other.

The reason why a large part of the community doesn't care about that kind of content now is because Arena Net neglected and still neglects those parts of the community that does care which leads players who enjoy that kind of content to leave the game. The pseudo-casual subcommunity I spoke about also did their part by being toxic and malicious about changes that actually harms the content those people enjoy. There are some popular cases like build templates, changes to fractals (I still miss good old 40) or - the latest entry - nerfing fractal CM rewards. If you bully people out of the game, the parts of the community that care about content like raids will naturally shrink.

Nonetheless, GW2 is still incredibly casual-friendly. You don't have a gear treadmill, you don't have to participate in raids pp., you don't have annoying RNG etc.

[mythical.6315]

40 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Did you even read my post? The hardcore players I've talked about aren't those that take part in the majority of the content GW2 offers. The hardcore players I've talked about are those players who pretend to be "casual" since being "casual" is apparently particularly worth protecting - all that while often having several hundred posts on the forum which already disqualifies them from being "casual" in the first place (80/15/5 rule in online communities). They try to stay in their own protected "easy mode" bubble and often complain about content that requires people to put in some effort. They're those people who tell you that the game needs to hold everyones hand, that stats aren't explained well enough - someone literally wrote that "condition damage" increasing the damage your conditions do isn't obvious -, that you can't expect people to read traits and skills - something which is apparently particularly obscure, who are constantly complaining about GoBs being only available in WvW and about the lack of open world legendary armor. Those people who downvote you into hell if you objectively talk about and explain game mechanics or game design. These are the people who hold the game in a stranglehold because everything should always follow the lowest common denominator meaning any substantial change will always be bad.

All my point was is that you were assigning a group as being toxic when it's not the group itself that is and that toxicity exists everywhere.  There's a personal bias when you highlight an entire group as being toxic.

Edited May 4, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Raizel.8175]

18 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

At least he is evolving with each passing day , while the rest of the Raiders won't . For example , he can see some problems with the LFG .

Generalizing is bad for this discussion. Most "raiders" are aware that the game has issues. Using your example: Probably everyone who tried getting into raids using the LFG or is still using the LFG for raids is aware that the GW2 LFG is pure garbage. That's why a large part of the community is organized in Discord servers pp. - something which even Teapot explicitly stated. The raiding community also isn't as uniform as you think it is.

13 minutes ago, DarkXi.3289 said:

The problem is not that one thinks that his argument is a valid one (which might or might not be). The problem is that he thinks his argument is the ONLY valid one. aNyWaY...

He doesn't, though? He's open for discussion and often discusses topics with other people - some of these people are more on the hardcore side of things (like Nike) and some are more on the casual side of things (like Sneb).

6 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

You're making assumptions based on a bias you have against a specific group of players.

Everyone is biased. My bias stems from a lot of experience in these forums which tells me that yes... the people I've described indeed to exist.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

10 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Generalizing is bad for this discussion. Most "raiders" are aware that the game has issues. Using your example: Probably everyone who tried getting into raids using the LFG or is still using the LFG for raids is aware that the GW2 LFG is pure garbage. That's why a large part of the community is organized in Discord servers pp. - something which even Teapot explicitly stated. The raiding community also isn't as uniform as you think it is.

He doesn't, though? He's open for discussion and often discusses topics with other people - some of these people are more on the hardcore side of things (like Nike) and some are more on the casual side of things (like Sneb).

Everyone is biased. My bias stems from a lot of experience in these forums which tells me that yes... the people I've described indeed to exist.

My only real issue with your initial post(s) was that I think you coulda worded it better. I did, however, get the message - and agree, to a fair extent.

Guild Wars is a game that relies a lot on players producing their 'own content'. Which is why it's silly that there isn't more support for this, based on i.e. reward structure. If you don't want to have the (initial) initiative, at least incentivize for the player base to take the lead on work on it.

The more I think on this, the more I come to believe a soft "guild rework" would be in order - you can offer the carrot on a number of skill floor while "tempting" players to explore different types of content within a "safe space".
Heck, you could even utilize some form of LFG alongside or even within the guild. Guild/Alliance interaction!

Edited May 4, 2022 by NorthernRedStar.3054