The ultimate proof that Mesmer is NOT fine in PvP

[Lethion.8745]

If you haven't heard, Twitch streamer MightyTeapot held a open comunity PvP tourmanent with high gold prize and title reward recently. Many prestigious montly AT teams have joined as well as some rogue groups. Someone has shared the statistics of the tournament in this Reddit post.

 

As you can see, Mesmer is among the least played professions. In EU, it's the second least played profession after Warrior. However, while Warrior did win every match it has appeared, Mesmer also has very negative winrate of around 30%, tied in the lowest winrate with Elementalist and Engineer. It's way worse in NA. In NA matches, Mesmer was the least played profession and not only that, but it also LOST EVERY SINGLE MATCH it has appeared. If someone shows up and dares to say 'But these are pro-players, this doesn't refletct Solo Ranked', remember that there were also rogue groups in the tourney which made it to the finals. Also, there is no profession that is performing well in the statistics but underperforming in Ranked. Average numbers of Necromancers and Guardians per match are above 2 and they are also the strongest classes in the Ranked right now. Maybe it's time that Anet has turned a deaf ear to the complaints of those who play PvP for daily rewards and has started listening to the actual PvP veterans. 

[semak.7481]

Anyone had a doubt?

Actually, if you are new/bad at the game, no wonder they think its strong/OP. (People can feel overwhelmed with amount of stuff they have to track and identify what they should avoid and find a real mesmer but the latter becomes trivial with time).

 

But there are also cases where people are lying (because once again, they are bad and losing to it and to preserve their ego, they claim it to be strong/OP, to not feel that they are losing because they are bad and refuse to l2p) or they are so smart that every time they are asked to count: 2+2 their answer is  anything but 4(definitely a certain streamer reviewing mAT's regularly) then these ppl would proclaim otherwise.

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Can't wait for the two usual people to come here and say how this data is bad and mesmer is op.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Sebrent.3625]

I see this all the time ... 8 out of 10 people in this ranked match were a Guardian or a Necro ... 

https://imgur.com/a/lw2YPnD

 

I wonder why 

 

It's like before the few rounds of Mechanist nerfs when we saw 4+ mechanists per game.

[Sebrent.3625]

Also ... someone please explain to me ...

(1) Why did Virtuoso shatters need to have a cast time added but we have Willbender doing instant casts that hit like a truck and don't require build up of a resource to use?

(2) Why is Mesmer's quickness on phantasm cast and Chronomancer's quickness on shatter nerfed in duration while Harbinger gets permanent quickness while in shroud?

These are just two of what seem like a nice list of glaring examples to me of balance decisions that don't make sense.

[Puck.3697]

Prolly long past proven mesmer has problems in SPVP.

no extra proof was ever really needed, the only space Mesmers remotely wanted is among Strike / Raids realistically.

[Waffles.5632]

This is my solo pvp queue experience for past ~2yrs or so as a power mirage. ~1.7k matches w/ 999 wins. You can point to the peak during the most broken era ever in recent pvp times and say whatever, but the fact and reality is, the more people start to accept that Mesmer is B+ through A tier (all mesmer specs reside in that pvp spectum atm) the more positive changes will/can actually be made.

 

But when you nit pick and grand stand it just makes all your issues fall on deaf ears because you're not being honest, at least not where it counts.

The  3 classes I have recently seen the most match to match have been guardian, necro, and mesmer, specifically virtuoso, more specifically condi virtuoso.

So yes, your chart, is horribly wrong/skewed/lacks significant data/can easily be proven wrong by the fact that condi virt is one of the easiest pvp specs to play/get into right now whether it's a one trick pony or not. I mean basic logic says I could flip a coin 3 times, have it land of heads all 3 times and then make a forum post claiming and shouting that TAILS IS NOT FINE IN PVP GUYS!!!

 

A small sample, is a small sample. I mean my size ain't much, but 1.7k sample size is a good chunk of matches over several years/pvp seasons. All with the same build. Power Mirage. Dueling/Domi/Mirage. (includes both ranked and unranked, with more matches in ranked) And that is just me. Keep in mind, this is by and far regarded as the weakest most dumb pvp and pve spec ever created. So if the weakest and dumbest spec with one dodge can get a 56% win rate over 1.7k matches, I am sure other actually functioning specs can do way better, I would love to see the numbers.

 

Bottom Line, the truth from an actual mesmer pvper :

Mesmer is B+. With Some specs edging on A tier. Yes it is not S tier though like WB/Core Guard/Harb. 

Do we want it S tier? Or what? Is that what this is about? My class couldn't compete with the S tier specs in a pvp tourney?? Because if it is about solo queue pvp experience, it's nonsense. Go condi virt, have tons of fun is my advice, and btw the same people that will say "Condi virt just a one trick pony, after it's burst it is a wet noodle" said the same thing about berserker before arc divider nerf. They just have been salted by the one shot.

Edit : Proof

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[HowlKamui.5120]

4 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

This is my solo pvp queue experience for past ~2yrs or so as a power mirage. ~1.7k matches w/ 999 wins. You can point to the peak during the most broken era ever in recent pvp times and say whatever, but the fact and reality is, the more people start to accept that Mesmer is B+ through A tier (all mesmer specs reside in that pvp spectum atm) the more positive changes will/can actually be made.

 

But when you nit pick and grand stand it just makes all your issues fall on deaf ears because you're not being honest, at least not where it counts.

The  3 classes I have recently seen the most match to match have been guardian, necro, and mesmer, specifically virtuoso, more specifically condi virtuoso.

So yes, your chart, is horribly wrong/skewed/lacks significant data/can easily be proven wrong by the fact that condi virt is one of the easiest pvp specs to play/get into right now whether it's a one trick pony or not. I mean basic logic says I could flip a coin 3 times, have it land of heads all 3 times and then make a forum post claiming and shouting that TAILS IS NOT FINE IN PVP GUYS!!!

 

A small sample, is a small sample. I mean my size ain't much, but 1.7k sample size is a good chunk of matches over several years/pvp seasons. All with the same build. Power Mirage. Dueling/Domi/Mirage. (includes both ranked and unranked, with more matches in ranked) And that is just me. Keep in mind, this is by and far regarded as the weakest most dumb pvp and pve spec ever created. So if the weakest and dumbest spec with one dodge can get a 56% win rate over 1.7k matches, I am sure other actually functioning specs can do way better, I would love to see the numbers.

 

Bottom Line, the truth from an actual mesmer pvper :

Mesmer is B+. With Some specs edging on A tier. Yes it is not S tier though like WB/Core Guard/Harb. 

Do we want it S tier? Or what? Is that what this is about? My class couldn't compete with the S tier specs in a pvp tourney?? Because if it is about solo queue pvp experience, it's nonsense. Go condi virt, have tons of fun is my advice, and btw the same people that will say "Condi virt just a one trick pony, after it's burst it is a wet noodle" said the same thing about berserker before arc divider nerf. They just have been salted by the one shot.

Edit : Proof

 

While yes a small sample *could* be biased (not always the case), a large sample from a single source (you playing mesmer) is probably even worse and has waaaay larger bias because you remove the randomization aspect totally.

But yeah, good job boosting your ego i guess... You saw the chance to post your video and took it!

Edited May 26, 2022 by HowlKamui.5120

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Mesmer is B+. With Some specs edging on A tier. Yes it is not S tier though like WB/Core Guard/Harb. 

Do we want it S tier? Or what? Is that what this is about? My class couldn't compete with the S tier specs in a pvp tourney?? Because if it is about solo queue pvp experience, it's nonsense. Go condi virt, have tons of fun is my advice, and btw the same people that will say "Condi virt just a one trick pony, after it's burst it is a wet noodle" said the same thing about berserker before arc divider nerf. They just have been salted by the one shot

I think this is where alot of translation is lost. 

Alot of people will consider what isn't used in Pro comps, fits into meta, or is A+ minimum in charts is considered to be bad. 

Alot of people consider A to be the balancing line (I.e anything beneath A needs buffing) and S to be meta / overpowered and likely in one shape or another needs a nerf. 

So alot of people in high silver / mid gold think the proffessions fine and anyone who watches/ plays ATs or follows mesmers who do play at that caliber see the problems of being a B+ proffession. 

Tbh I get along fine with my mesmer I just play solo ranked. I win and generally perform well and don't struggle to pull weight, but I also play in a environment where any proffession could get mid plat minimum with the right player behind the handles effectively. 

I think alot of my issue with the way mesmers handled is, they tend to give mesmer alot of mechanics that they later on decide they no longer like and then tend to nerf it in all the wrong ways deleting some much loved builds out of existence and can feel quite janky to deal with afterwards. 

We had chrono, but they decided they disliked alacrity being their unique thing, and took a dislike to CS being a addition so made it a trade off for f4. And they nerfed alot of support elements it had. 

Mirage they decided they didn't like its dodge mechanic so layered multitudes of nerfs on its dodges and decided to outright delete one of its dodges afterwards. 

Where reworks may of been a better fix.

Also the fact some do believe that the way mesmers handled is down to a bias is always a big flaring issue. Apprantly people have proclaimed they actively dislike mesmer as a proffession and anet have admitted this in their discord is a huge point of problems. 

No idea how true it is, or what context it was in we effectively only had someone stating they said this and anet haven't rly denied it. But this will drive a negative tone regardless as people do believe it. 

I don't exactly know what was said or if its true personally. So I ain't taking a side on this one 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[katte nici.9483]

You are literally... clicking your skills... with your mouse cursor...

[Senqu.8054]

5 hours ago, katte nici.9483 said:

You are literally... clicking your skills... with your mouse cursor...

THIS, LMAOOOOOOO. What a time to play gw2. It’s getting a huge joke atm.

[Dadnir.5038]

24 minutes ago, Senqu.8054 said:

THIS, LMAOOOOOOO. What a time to play gw2. It’s getting a huge joke atm.

Well, nowaday people aren't interested in playing, they want their build to play for them and then they talk about "skill".

Edited May 26, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[aymnad.9023]

58 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Well, nowaday people aren't interested in playing, they want their build to play for them and then they talk about "skill".

Skill clicking has nothing to do with your rotations around the map, understanding of mechanics (yours and the enemies) and overall capacity to carry. 

I can guarantee all of you there is and probably always have been people clicking on a few skills with higher ratings, no matter the builds.

Also none of this is linked to the op.

Edited May 26, 2022 by aymnad.9023

[Waffles.5632]

I literally did the meme skillclicking of all my F abilities in that video and they still couldn't see it as the blatant trap that it was. Just goes to show how Mesmer CC is so potent it works IRL too.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[Waffles.5632]

7 hours ago, HowlKamui.5120 said:

While yes a small sample *could* be biased (not always the case), a large sample from a single source (you playing mesmer) is probably even worse and has waaaay larger bias because you remove the randomization aspect totally.

But yeah, good job boosting your ego i guess... You saw the chance to post your video and took it!

 

 Do you even know what a control is?

 

While yes, cupcakes *could* be delicious (not always the case), 1,700 cupcakes from a single source (you making them) is probably not delicious and has a waaaaay larger bias because you remove the randomization aspect totally.

But yeah, good job boosting your ego on cupcakes I guess. You saw the chance to tell people they were good and you took it!

 

I want to emphasize, you spoke with such conviction and confidence, while using the word "probably".

I want to further make it clear as well, that if I wanted an ego boost, I would not be showcasing youtube videos of me playing some niche/meme pvp spec on a 10yr old MMO.

 

It's posts like these, and the others in this thread of similar ilk that need to go, because they offer nothing of value. Even the OP should have been reworded/moved/whatever because they are just parroting information w/o actually offering their own personal experience, and they aren't even reading the info right.

 

To legit make a post, about the one of the top tournaments for pvp, in one of the most broken metas atm, right after a major Xpac with NINE CLASSES ADDED LOL, and right BEFORE a major class balance patch slated for june, and then claim that that is what solo queue pvp is like.

 

Nah.

So far, I am the only one in this entire thread that has actually proved they pvp'd as a mesmer, in the past 2years.

 

Post up or shut up.

 

Quote

Tbh I get along fine with my mesmer I just play solo ranked. I win and generally perform well and don't struggle to pull weight, but I also play in a environment where any proffession could get mid plat minimum with the right player behind the handles effectively. 

@Daddy.8125 ^^^ This right here. Any player who focuses on teamwork/map awareness/playing roles in matches ( roamer/support/duelist etc) and general pvp form and etiquette is going to succeed over the long run no matter the class they play.

 

My issues are the over exaggeration of mesmer nerfs, when again, reality is Mirage hasn't been directly touched in over a year. It has been indirectly buffed during this time as other classes have gotten several heavy handed nerfs.

For instance a year ago, DH trapper was higher than Power Mirage tier list wise, now? I would not put DH trapper above Power Mirage, if anything DH is now B tier alongside PMirage hahaha, but yes, just a small example of how direct nerfs to other classes, indirectly cause buffs to the rest. This has to be factored in with every single balance either negative or positive.

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[Hotride.2187]

15 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

So far, I am the only one in this entire thread that has actually proved they pvp'd as a mesmer, in the past 2years.

What rank though.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

13 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

 

 Do you even know what a control is?

 

While yes, cupcakes *could* be delicious (not always the case), 1,700 cupcakes from a single source (you making them) is probably not delicious and has a waaaaay larger bias because you remove the randomization aspect totally.

But yeah, good job boosting your ego on cupcakes I guess. You saw the chance to tell people they were good and you took it!

 

I want to emphasize, you spoke with such conviction and confidence, while using the word "probably".

I want to further make it clear as well, that if I wanted an ego boost, I would not be showcasing youtube videos of me playing some niche/meme pvp spec on a 10yr old MMO.

 

It's posts like these, and the others in this thread of similar ilk that need to go, because they offer nothing of value. Even the OP should have been reworded/moved/whatever because they are just parroting information w/o actually offering their own personal experience, and they aren't even reading the info right.

 

To legit make a post, about the one of the top tournaments for pvp, in one of the most broken metas atm, right after a major Xpac with NINE CLASSES ADDED LOL, and right BEFORE a major class balance patch slated for june, and then claim that that is what solo queue pvp is like.

 

Nah.

So far, I am the only one in this entire thread that has actually proved they pvp'd as a mesmer, in the past 2years.

 

Post up or shut up.

 

 

 

So, all these pros are noobs and are wrong.

You noname on the other hand are right and you're a godsend to mesmers.

[Senqu.8054]

34 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

I literally did the meme skillclicking of all my F abilities in that video and they still couldn't see it as the blatant trap that it was. Just goes to show how Mesmer CC is so potent it works IRL too.

You played in 730 days ( as you stated) 1200 ranked matches max. This is round about 1,6 matches per day and you lost half of it. What kind of troll are you?

[Waffles.5632]

1 minute ago, Hotride.2187 said:

What rank though.

Gold 3/Plat 1, more specifcally my range is ~1470 - ~1550, I have never personally been above 1574 ranking as a PMirage ever since I started pvping with the class which was like 2-3yrs ago. This is what I call the mechanical limit of Mirage because of the one Dodge limitation. Classes like Vindi were designed from the base up around one dodge, but Mirage was designed around 2, and then nerfed, and then nerfed again, and then they took away second dodge, but they never buffed/changed any of the traits to work around one dodge, so effectively when they cut our dodge, they cut all of our traits in half as well.

 

A huge thing ppl sleep on is Mirage cloak used to last 1second. 2 dodges w/ 1sec mirage cloak is OP for pvp, but one dodge, with 1sec mirage cloak? Now it doesn't sound too bad imo. So I would like that change back for instance. I would like our 3rd jaunt back as well. Those would be the 2 changes I would make first, and these changes would be like a rolling plan, where slowly over time you revert nerfs done to mirage, but still keep one dodge in tact, hell can even rework to one dodge in PvE as well. Point is, I would like to see those changes first, before anything else, or just a "lol second dodge back" kuz second dodge is that can of worms that opens up a lot of mirage hate/problems. Mirage cloak is insane strong, and it is a dodge. Ppl sleep on it, but devs are right. It's a beautiful, but OP as all hell mechanic, because it ignores everything and comes free of cost ( you only have to wait for endurance to dodge )

 

Just now, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So, all these pros are noobs and are wrong.

You noname on the other hand are right and you're a godsend to mesmers.

This is another example of putting words in my mouth. All I have done is shown actual evidence of my pvp experience as a Power Mirage over the past couple of years. In my very first post I said Mesmer is B+. If you can't read, or don't want to take the time to, please do not bother.

[Waffles.5632]

17 minutes ago, Senqu.8054 said:

You played in 730 days ( as you stated) 1200 ranked matches max. This is round about 1,6 matches per day and you lost half of it. What kind of troll are you?

I lost less than half.

See what I mean LOL. You guys can't even be truthful when the facts are in your face.

 

As for Troll? Google highest shot accuracy for NBA players. Google highest batting average for MLB players.

Edit : I did it for you, Stephen Curry, the most accurate 3 point shooter, has a 42.8% success rate.

Do you know how stats work? Like, do you even realize how hard it would be to get above 60% or even 70% win rate? It would involve an S tier spec, non stop duo queue, and some wintrading, that much I am certain.

So who's the troll again?

Edited May 26, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, aymnad.9023 said:

Skill clicking has nothing to do with your rotations around the map, understanding of mechanics (yours and the enemies) and overall capacity to carry. 

I can guarantee all of you there is and probably always have been people clicking on a few skills with higher ratings, no matter the builds.

Also none of this is linked to the op.

And I can garantee you that you didn't understood a word of what I wrote as it wasn't a critic of the video but a critic of the general mindset that players have in PvP nowaday. Simply put, people would rather blame their class or the opponent's class than admit that they might not be as good as they think they are.

 

[Hotride.2187]

22 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Gold 3/Plat 1, more specifcally my range is ~1470 - ~1550

Fair for offmeta.

[Waffles.5632]

4 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Fair for offmeta.

THANK YOU!! 

And that is all I have been saying. If the majority of Mesmers can agree on where Mesmer actually is balance wise, then buffs can happen. But long as the narrative is "Mesmer sucks in pvp, class is broken, don't even play it" then nothing can change kuz there's no reality in those statements.

 

Thread can end now tbh. Mesmer is Off Meta, don't expect to be S tier, it's solid B-A tier, really good for solo/duo queue, can use some buffs here and there. Now as for what those buffs should be, I said some of my ideas above, but they are just ideas.

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[Hotride.2187]

19 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

And that is all I have been saying. If the majority of Mesmers can agree on where Mesmer actually is balance wise, then buffs can happen. But long as the narrative is "Mesmer sucks in pvp, class is broken, don't even play it" then nothing can change kuz there's no reality in those statements.

Well personal skill is also a big factor. I've 1v1ed enough power mesmers in wvw, the ones that aren't good just get trampled over in 10-15 sec.

IMO the only thing keeping mesmer afloat is the condi builds. Wouldn't call those high skill builds (especially with virtuoso). But if you give a power build to a new player they'll just hang themselves playing it.

Same for ele tbh.

And I've dueled enough players who don't want to condi bunker. Only natural that those players are very unhappy with where the professions (mesmer/ele) are.

Though you can always say "mesmer is a hard profession, invest time at your own risk".

Edited May 26, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Waffles.5632]

36 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Well personal skill is also a big factor. I've 1v1ed enough power mesmers in wvw, the ones that aren't good just get trampled over in 10-15 sec.

IMO the only thing keeping mesmer afloat is the condi builds. Wouldn't call those high skill builds (especially with virtuoso). But if you give a power build to a new player they'll just hang themselves playing it.

Same for ele tbh.

And I've dueled enough players who don't want to condi bunker. Only natural that those players are very unhappy with where the professions (mesmer/ele) are.

I like that you mention ele because I think both ele/mes suffer from same problems inherently and that is,

high skill floor, high skill cap

Both classes have to commit to a lot, just to be on equal or barely better footing than the rest, and for both Mesmer and Ele, the niche is, they are granted more freedom in the sense that they don't have set rotations or abilities that are "clearly" better.

For Mesmer specifically, one example is it's not about simply shattering on CD, but choosing when and what to shatter and since it is instant cast, the choice is always ours. So that freedom always has to be factored in because it's a core concept for both Mes/Ele ( ele's can always change attunements regardless of CC/current action AFAIK)

 

Although I personally find success with PMirage, I don't recommend it to new players/pvpers, because it is super punishing. This is why I like the one trick pony virtu spec, easy to play and get into, and then from there can gateway into other mesmer specs. I think all classes should have at least one "easy" spec, even for pvp, that's just super simple to understand and execute. You know when you pick warrior, and you use 100b, like, you know exactly what the skill is going to do before you even use it, and it feels good using it. Hence warrior being the "simplest" class, however far from weakest.

For Mesmer, you legit have to explain how sword 5 phantasm works, and that it first summons a phantasm (not a clone, oh whats a clone vs phantasm dun worry welcome to mesmer) that leaps, does a hit, then does a skill, then turns into a clone. For anyone new to the class they have immediately lost interest I bet, and I don't blame them.

Anyways yeah, I don't like condi bunker either, any bunker for that matter. I'd rather die 100 times with 100 kills in a match vs 0 deaths 0 kills any day so that is my preference, but I mean, I want it balanced, not one extreme or the other.

 

 

Right now, solo queue, I am averaging something like ~16 kills a match, ~300k damage, ~3 deaths ~3 medals

Before EoD the only number that really changed was the damage part, which was averaging I'd say around ~200k. This is off my personal memory and I did some number crunching awhile ago, but nothing fancy. Idk about anyone else, but I think this feels.... fine? Like if you can get those numbers as a roamer pvp spec then that's a good baseline for "healthy pvp"

A "bad" match would be me dying 4 or 5+ times, and on the rare occasions I got absolutely obliterated, it would be like 7+ deaths. Literally it has become I know my chances of winning/losing a match based simply off how many times I've died in the game lol. I would wager that any game where I had 2 deaths or less was a win. I think this can be a good metric for any pvper, since what I feel ultimately matters most in pvp matches are securing kills.

 

Which is another thing, huge rant I know, but there are certain classes, PMirage for instance, that can stack huge amounts of momentum for their entire team, in the form of excelling greatly at securing down kills, which PMirage is S tier at. IF there is any downed body and their team mate goes to rez them, split surge destroys that entire dynamic, and then you can swap to sword to interupt both targets, again further stacking more momentum in your favor, and completely disrupting their entire rez mechanic. A world of difference for pvp specs that can do this, vs pvp specs that cant. Furthermore, As a PMirage I can actually counter the core guard as they go to signet, or the necro/scourge right? Etc etc. Furthermore the sheer amount of Vuln PMirage can spread through split surge, like okay....

If you would normally do 100 damage to someone, but you now do 125 damage to them because I applied 25x vuln, that 25 damage gets credited to you, even though I was the cause. So PMirage damage is actually very deceptive because this isn't just 5x vuln, this 25x vuln to 2-3 players sometimes even the entire enemy team. So how do you rank stuff like that? This is why I joke that Power Mirage is the first dps support of GW2 pvp lmfao, because that is exactly how I feel sometimes, that I am just supporting my team through secured kills, well timed interrupts, and dishing out massive amounts of vuln all the time ( with domi traits, every CC is a vuln, and sword ambush is a daze..)

 

I mean I typed a lot but ultimately idk, but at least it's a start. These are actual numbers, feelings, and my own observations instead of just hawking forums all day for any chance to discredit mesmer. (not you, but everyone knows the party by now, they chain react to my posts all the time 😂)

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Waffles.5632