Returning Player Remembering Why They Quit

[Malthurius.6870]

So, I've been around since the betas and was hyped up on the game before it launched (was very active on the MMO-Champion forums). I quit somewhere during Season 4 and it was mostly due to anti-consumer monetization practices. Let me break it down and air this out because a lot of this is still unacceptable.

1. The Gem-Store has way too much developmental focus. A huge portion of content is developed for the Gem-Store and when I quit the most egregious example of this was the mounts. It was one thing for them to be only earnable via RNG loot boxes (thanks for fixing that I guess? It's still kind of trash that the selectable item costs more and the RNG one even still exists). The entirety of the mount skin system is predatory and frankly disgusting.

 

The basic issue I have with this is that all of those items in the gemstore should be obtainable via specific in game accomplishments like achievements, or at least a larger portion of them. I want goals to work towards, and the generic goal of grinding gold isn't as fulfilling as working towards a specific goal. A middle ground would be to have both: skins in the gemstore, but also obtainable via specific achievements or tasks; kind of like how you can buy legendaries or you can go through the motions to get it via collections and content.


2. Build templates are a sin; a blemish, a pestilent blight. For anyone who engages in at least 2 game modes, this is almost nothing, in fact, it's worse than nothing. Spec templates should just be free. I'm more accepting of armor templates because they function as additional storage for armor items which was a big hog of space before. In fact, just remove Spec templates entirely and just make build loadouts character based instead of account wide, and give all the slots for free.

The worst thing that build templates did is that it took away the split of your character's build loadout between PvE and PvP. You have to go through the trouble of switching your build whenever you switch modes, or use one of your precious slots to get a sliver of the convenience you had before this feature was implemented. What's worse is that it muddies the PvP culture: people are more likely to just run their PvE build than engage in building something for PvP, and what's worse about that is that the player is also likely to run into an annoying disjoint if any of their traits or skills are balanced differently. This system is actively bad for getting new players into PvP. As a middle ground, can we at least have separate templates for PvE, PvP, and WvW.


3. Black Lion Chests and skins from tickets are kitten for the same reason mounts are. It's actually the exact same issue as mounts except a little more tolerable due to the skins being purchasable via gold (but the mounts can also be bought with gold because gold and gems are exchangeable currencies). Why aren't these hundreds of skins obtainable in some way in game? Greed is the answer. They're so predatory to the right mindset too.

 

 

The more I think about these terrible anti-consumer issues the more upset I get. This game would have been leagues better if the gem store didn't actually exist and we just had to pay a monthly fee; imagine it... for the low price of 15$ a month you could have had 8 armor template slots, 32 build templates per character, 10 bag slots on all characters, 500 bank slots, all mount skins, armor skins, weapon skins, gliders, novelties obtainable in game via achievements or specific rewards (with maybe a handful reserved for a reasonable real money shop), and unlimited character slots. a 10,000$ value just for 15$ a month from the player base.... wowie. kitten this f2p model.

[Gehenna.3625]

Most MMOs these days have subs + a cash shop on top of it. What's special here is that GW2 doesn't actually charge a sub. 

I've played SWTOR for years. They have a sub system (F2P is very limited). Over 90% of cosmetics come from the cash shop and you cannot exchange in game currency for their cash shop currency.

GW2 has tons of skins that are obtainable in game via rewards and achievements and indeed you can trade gold for gems.

As far as I'm concerned GW2 is one of the least egregious MMOs out there.

[Malthurius.6870]

I've been playing FFXIV since I quit, and almost every new mount, armor, weapon, furniture, or otherwise is obtainable in game with very little cash shop promotion. I'm not a fan of a cash shop in addition to a sub-fee *at all*, and despite how good of a job FFXIV does at developing rewards in game, the fact that anything is only obtainable in their store is pretty garbage and anti-consumer.

I want to make something clear; this isn't a "I hate GW2 because they have a cash shop" this is "I wish GW2 was better, and the cash shop is actively making the game worse for the sake of profit".

Let me put it this way: when I pay a sub fee for FFXIV, I feel good about it because almost all of the game's development is towards the content that 15$ pays for.

When I pay for anything in GW2 (minimum 10$) I feel like I'm getting ripped off and exploited for money.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Malthurius.6870

[Gehenna.3625]

2 minutes ago, Malthurius.6870 said:

I've been playing FFXIV since I quit, and almost every new mount, armor, weapon, furniture, or otherwise is obtainable in game with very little cash shop promotion. I'm not a fan of a cash shop in addition to a sub-fee *at all*, and despite how good of a job FFXIV does at developing rewards in game, the fact that anything is only obtainable in their store is pretty garbage and anti-consumer.

I want to make something clear; this isn't a "I hate GW2 because they have a cash shop" this is "I wish GW2 was better, and the cash shop is actively making the game worse for the sake of profit".

Well I looked it up and FF XIV does have an extensive cash shop from what I can tell. So what's the difference between earning in game and earning gold in game to get gems?

In the end GW2 has a business model and they have to make it work. A lot of people here play because there is no sub. That's always been Anet's business model, also with GW1.

I don't think that it would be better with a sub and a cash shop, because it would chase a large part of the player base away. And what you call "for the sake of profit" is being very negative about Anet and their employees wanting to get paid for their efforts. You may think it's a lot but you actually need a lot of money to keep an game company going. It's not just greed, it's also about survival of Anet and subs aren't going to be better for them.

[costepj.5120]

21 minutes ago, Malthurius.6870 said:

for the low price of 15$ a month

I've played most days for the past 10 years. At that low price, GW2 would have cost me $1,700. Fortunately for me I haven't had to spend 1 cent over and above the box prices. I have every QoL/cosmetic upgrade I want - all obtained in game or by exchanging gold for gems.

I left WOW to get away from subs. If GW2 had a sub, I for one wouldn't be here.

[Malthurius.6870]

Then what about my middle grounds? Surely you wouldn't disagree that it would be better if you could obtain these cosmetics, skins, or maybe even bag slots via achievements, collections, or specific content *in addition* to the cash shop, no? If grinding gold is an acceptable option to you, then making them obtainable via specific tasks should be palatable as well.

and don't tell me you guys actually are okay with the state of build templates.

[Malthurius.6870]

20 minutes ago, costepj.5120 said:

I've played most days for the past 10 years. At that low price, GW2 would have cost me $1,700. Fortunately for me I haven't had to spend 1 cent over and above the box prices. I have every QoL/cosmetic upgrade I want - all obtained in game or by exchanging gold for gems.

I left WOW to get away from subs. If GW2 had a sub, I for one wouldn't be here.

But this is contradictory to Gehenna's point of "this is how Anet make money". Most people aren't like you and probably spend more than 15$ a month on the game, otherwise Anet wouldn't be able to pay their developers, would they?

[kokocabana.8153]

11 minutes ago, Malthurius.6870 said:

But this is contradictory to Gehenna's point of "this is how Anet make money". Most people aren't like you and probably spend more than 15$ a month on the game, otherwise Anet wouldn't be able to pay their developers, would they?

You could turn this around and say why does ff14 need a cash shop when they already have a sub? Why not just increase the sub to $20 or $30 a month and then remove the cash shop.

 

Whether you spend $1700 in ff14 over 5 years or $1700 in gw2 over the same period of time, it's still funding future content.

 

The difference is just the timing and your biased viewpoint towards one business model.

Edited May 28, 2022 by kokocabana.8153

[Malthurius.6870]

I already said I dislike that FFXIV has a cash shop; the difference is that almost all of the content in FFXIV besides the few dozen things in the cash shop are obtainable by playing the game. The GW2 cash shop has hundreds, if not thousands of items in it that could have been used to enrich content in game instead of being obtainable through a menu.

For example, imagine if in order to get the branded mount skins you had to do a series of collection achievements directing you to a wide variety of content with lore about why you have branded mounts?

Or the holloween mount skins, that could have been attached to a halloween event collection. That's a lot more interesting than just coughing up 20$ or 1000g. When it comes to cosmetics, I just wish they were a part of content instead of disconnected cosmetic fluff that means next to nothing. They don't have to be difficult to earn either, just obtainable in a way that makes sense and that feels like a reward for going out and doing content.

What if the bloodstone black lion weapons were part of Bloodstone Fen and dropped from the zone the same way Pact and Elonian weapons drop from HoT and PoF? Make them super rare if you have to, I just want them in the game and not in an html web store.

[Farohna.6247]

The big thing is you can turn earned in game gold into gems and spend no. actual. money.  Time invested yes, but that's up to the player.  

I played WoW for better part of a decade, when all the mounts, gear, etc. was only achieved by drops in dungeons, raids, by achievements, and quests.  Sure for $15 a month it was great, gave me something to do...I had a LOT of mini pets lol.  But I also really nice to have a game where if you don't feel like you HAVE to play because you paid a sub.  Never short on content in GW2 just because I don't have all the gem store shinies.  They're just cosmetic and don't effect game play.  

Earning/grinding gold IS the middle ground.  It may not be one you like but that's it.  And yes build templates are stingy, but then I have just worked with what I have so oh well.  If I really wanted more, I would save some gold and convert.. /shrug.  I don't have to pay for anything I don't want or use.

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Malthurius.6870 said:

 

 

. This game would have been leagues better if the gem store didn't actually exist and we just had to pay a monthly fee; imagine it... for the low price of 15$ a month you could have had 8 armor template slots, 32 build templates per character, 10 bag slots on all characters, 500 bank slots, all mount skins, armor skins, weapon skins, gliders, novelties obtainable in game via achievements or specific rewards (with maybe a handful reserved for a reasonable real money shop), and unlimited character slots. a 10,000$ value just for 15$ a month from the player base.... wowie. kitten this f2p model.

(sigh)  Here we go again with this kitten.

Look -- you can pay $15/month on your own and have all of these things that you mention.  Heck, you can pay even more per month if you want.  There is your subscription.  

[Einsof.1457]

I agree with all your complaints, honestly. I still will play though. 

[Redfeather.6401]

I sum up gw2 as having really interesting gameplay that is engaging but nothing interesting to do it for. I can enjoy the activities in the game but wonder why I am doing them over and over. It boils down to just farming currencies for cosmetics that were not good enough for the gem store. That's what it felt like.

[Silent.6137]

4 minutes ago, Redfeather.6401 said:

I sum up gw2 as having really interesting gameplay that is engaging but nothing interesting to do it for. I can enjoy the activities in the game but wonder why I am doing them over and over. It boils down to just farming currencies for cosmetics that were not good enough for the gem store. That's what it felt like.

Doesn't that describe practically every single MMOs? You don't just do every single event just once and move on. You farmed at events, whether for currencies or items.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Since you quit, you are obviously unaware of the Black Lion Weapon skins you can earn in-game. 

But, like mentioned above, if a subscription would alleviate your concerns, you are welcome to give ArenaNet $15 a month and choose whatever you want from the Gem Store and not even have to complete events/collections/whatever for the items!

[Gehenna.3625]

1 hour ago, Malthurius.6870 said:

But this is contradictory to Gehenna's point of "this is how Anet make money". Most people aren't like you and probably spend more than 15$ a month on the game, otherwise Anet wouldn't be able to pay their developers, would they?

The point is that I'm not convinced most players spend money in the gem store as you suggest. A certain segment does and the fact that they spend a lot of money there enables many others to play for free if they so choose.

So it's not contrary to my post. I mean why do you say that "most people aren't like you"? Do you have some secret knowledge?

Edited May 28, 2022 by Gehenna.3625

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I certainly don't spend more than $15/month on the game.  I might be hard-pressed to spend $15/year on the game (not counting expansions). 

[Einsof.1457]

12 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Since you quit, you are obviously unaware of the Black Lion Weapon skins you can earn in-game. 

But, like mentioned above, if a subscription would alleviate your concerns, you are welcome to give ArenaNet $15 a month and choose whatever you want from the Gem Store and not even have to complete events/collections/whatever for the items!

This is actually what I do..I buy $20 worth of gems a month just to say thanks for the hours of entertainment. The devs work hard for my enjoyment. It's the least I could do. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Silent.6137]

Let's assume you bought the basic GW1 and all the expansions at full price. That would have cost approximately $140. Which will give you about 11 months (@ $13/mth) of gaming on either WoW or FF14. If you've been playing GW for more than 11 months, just set aside $13xN (N = months played GW1/GW2 - 11). You will have ample amount to spend on practically any skins you like. If that's still not enough, just used the gold you earned in-game to buy gems to supplement your collections.

[Randulf.7614]

The gem store hasn’t made the game worse. It’s made it exist.

Without its presence, it wouldn’t be able to fund the game - it’s simply not a big enough ip or name to survive on a sub in this day and age. And since everything can be earned with in game gold, it’s works. Gem store skins have largely been profitable and popular, although those rng loot boxes I am staunchly against and always will be. I am rather surprised a company that seems to pride itself on high ethics and morals still utilise these.

The perception that too much focus is on it and that it detracts from in game rewards is largely out of tune with how it is. I agree that I’d like to be able to directly earn some skins through playing and not just currency conversion, but it’s not a deal breaker nor has it obstructed the game’s development for the most part (the mess that is build templates of course being an exception - that they got wrong plain and simple).

Without the gem store the game would have died long ago - quicker with a sub attached - and it is not one of the main problems of this game.

[Rhingeim.3974]

I'm actually like GW 2 monetization, only one thing that I'd like to have is an option to buy a flying mount for the sake of saving time. 

 

In fact, GW2 has very flexible monetization plan. 

WoW - buy actual version + monthly fee + new DLC. Which, while giving you full access (I'm not speaking about gold inflation because of WoW Tokens), put some pressure (at least for me) to make max from your payment (and WoW monthly fee is not something I would personally consider as reasonable money I care about). 

 

In GW2, I rarely check Gems Store for something I may like, and go into straight purchase for specific item I want. No pressure of ticking timer, in fact, before switching to ESO for some time I've burned around 6k gems for different things (literally spent them and went to ESO next day). 

 

At the end, I'm returning to GW2 because of combat, beautiful world and music, stories and desires to try another professions. 

[Khisanth.2948]

So many words just to say "I want everything to be cheaper". I wouldn't mind that but is there any need to go through so many twists and turns just to say that?

[Dante.1508]

I quit over quite a few reasons..

• My builds get nerfed in owpve due to "balance" patches.
• The lack of rewards in owpve is totally crap. "you don't need it" isn't an argument.
• The difficulty of the content wears me down.
• owpve collectable skins in general are terrible.
• The over use of meta trains in owpve drives me away.
• The gems to gold conversion is bs... way too low.

I totally expect to take another break when Engi and a few other classes get destroyed on 28th june..

Edited May 30, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Natedog.7549]

Most revenue generated goes to the top. The ground floor employees (developers) don't see most of that money. Obviously the company has to make money or no one is paid. However an employee from Anet just quit and revealed a bit about ncsoft and wage theft. 

Supporting the developers is nice to say and makes spending money feel better. But defending bad monetary practices isn't helpful. Yes black lion chests are loot boxes and aren't good. So are the random dye packs and random mount skins. Or the triple monetized build templates.

The store could just sell everything directly and the game would still be alive probably. Somethings in the store probably would be better not being sold in that first place. Example: world boss timers could have been in a feature pack update not sold in store.

Maybe gw2 could have worked as a sub game but that ship has sailed. Imagine justifying paying a sub in those 5 years between pof and eod.

 

[Kozumi.5816]

7 hours ago, Malthurius.6870 said:

This game would have been leagues better if the gem store didn't actually exist and we just had to pay a monthly fee

It'd still have a cash shop on top of a monthly sub.

The gem store isn't even the that lucrative compared to monthly sub games like WoW and FF14. It gets very few new items besides low effort mount skins / backpiece / glider / chair #126232662262.  We get, what, ONE outfit every 2 months? Maybe every month? Games like PSO2 add 4+ full skin sets every 2 weeks. Anet just doesn't put time, money, or resources into meaningful and unique rewards - this includes the cash shop.

Seems to be working for them, though. They got the IDC/IDK Marvel movie loving crowd who just play a MMO for (bad) story and are eating up GW2 making tons of revenue. No reason to design for actual MMO players, anymore.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Kozumi.5816