Returning Player Remembering Why They Quit

[Klowdy.3126]

On 5/28/2022 at 4:02 PM, Malthurius.6870 said:

So, I've been around since the betas and was hyped up on the game before it launched (was very active on the MMO-Champion forums). I quit somewhere during Season 4 and it was mostly due to anti-consumer monetization practices. Let me break it down and air this out because a lot of this is still unacceptable.

1. The Gem-Store has way too much developmental focus. A huge portion of content is developed for the Gem-Store and when I quit the most egregious example of this was the mounts. It was one thing for them to be only earnable via RNG loot boxes (thanks for fixing that I guess? It's still kind of trash that the selectable item costs more and the RNG one even still exists). The entirety of the mount skin system is predatory and frankly disgusting.

 

The basic issue I have with this is that all of those items in the gemstore should be obtainable via specific in game accomplishments like achievements, or at least a larger portion of them. I want goals to work towards, and the generic goal of grinding gold isn't as fulfilling as working towards a specific goal. A middle ground would be to have both: skins in the gemstore, but also obtainable via specific achievements or tasks; kind of like how you can buy legendaries or you can go through the motions to get it via collections and content.


2. Build templates are a sin; a blemish, a pestilent blight. For anyone who engages in at least 2 game modes, this is almost nothing, in fact, it's worse than nothing. Spec templates should just be free. I'm more accepting of armor templates because they function as additional storage for armor items which was a big hog of space before. In fact, just remove Spec templates entirely and just make build loadouts character based instead of account wide, and give all the slots for free.

The worst thing that build templates did is that it took away the split of your character's build loadout between PvE and PvP. You have to go through the trouble of switching your build whenever you switch modes, or use one of your precious slots to get a sliver of the convenience you had before this feature was implemented. What's worse is that it muddies the PvP culture: people are more likely to just run their PvE build than engage in building something for PvP, and what's worse about that is that the player is also likely to run into an annoying disjoint if any of their traits or skills are balanced differently. This system is actively bad for getting new players into PvP. As a middle ground, can we at least have separate templates for PvE, PvP, and WvW.


3. Black Lion Chests and skins from tickets are kitten for the same reason mounts are. It's actually the exact same issue as mounts except a little more tolerable due to the skins being purchasable via gold (but the mounts can also be bought with gold because gold and gems are exchangeable currencies). Why aren't these hundreds of skins obtainable in some way in game? Greed is the answer. They're so predatory to the right mindset too.

 

 

The more I think about these terrible anti-consumer issues the more upset I get. This game would have been leagues better if the gem store didn't actually exist and we just had to pay a monthly fee; imagine it... for the low price of 15$ a month you could have had 8 armor template slots, 32 build templates per character, 10 bag slots on all characters, 500 bank slots, all mount skins, armor skins, weapon skins, gliders, novelties obtainable in game via achievements or specific rewards (with maybe a handful reserved for a reasonable real money shop), and unlimited character slots. a 10,000$ value just for 15$ a month from the player base.... wowie. kitten this f2p model.

Overly-dramatic post, making mountains out of molehills. 

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

 I admit I haven't played SWTOR since end of last year. Has anything been done to significantly reduce the ridiculous inflation since then?
 

Nope.  Still the same.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

But why hire another developer to polish your game, when you can hire another marketing person instead to squeeze more money out of the current player base? Why make an interesting quest fore the zaitan skins, when you just can put more material sink into it instead that entices people to swipe their credit card? When you can attach a profit number to some content like LW seasons, but can't put a profit number on other content or quality of existing content don't you think that skews what gets worked on. Fixing the stupid glowing Blacklion symbol took what? A month?

 

Don't you think the gems are part of the reason so much stuff is locked behind gold per hour? And if it isn't locked behind gold per hour it is locked behind a long low effort collection. Low effort from a development standpoint.

I responded to a person who said monthly fees are inherently bad and another person who stated nothing good could come from it.

True, Subscription fees have there own problem, Engagement as main metrics comes to mind. But wow gets bugs fixes waay faster then anet, but that could be a company thing and not a pay model thing.
Anyways: Free to play pay for extra is fine. I don't advocate for a sub fee introduction. I'm just surprised how hostile people about the complain. Like if they agree mount skin loot boxes and overpriced layout loadouts are symptom of the gem model Anet gonna charge them the 15 bucks a month right now.
 

None of this changes the fact that no one should assume that specific business models would dictate how revenues are divided up into budgets like development. That's the problem we are talking about when people justify subs ... because they assume it would be 'better' for getting content or fixing bugs or whatever else they imagine the need is. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Ashen.2907]

16 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well hold on ... the revenues, whether is gemstore OR sub ... IS coming from the game itself; no one who doesn't play the game will pay for a GS item or a sub. I mean, I don't care what business model a game has and what infrastructure is required to implement that model, funds WILL go to development of the game, otherwise people won't play it. 

From where I sit, the source of the revenue has little relation to the relative amount a development will get. No one should assume that revenue source would impact the amount of budget for development. 

 

This.

The gemshop makes money off of people playing the game. If revenue is not, to some degree, put back into content development then people stop playing. If they stop playing they have no further interest in gemshop items.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

10 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

But why hire another developer to polish your game, when you can hire another marketing person instead to squeeze more money out of the current player base? Why make an interesting quest fore the zaitan skins, when you just can put more material sink into it instead that entices people to swipe their credit card? When you can attach a profit number to some content like LW seasons, but can't put a profit number on other content or quality of existing content don't you think that skews what gets worked on. Fixing the stupid glowing Blacklion symbol took what? A month?

 

 

 

Seems there are many more hiring positions open for non-marketing than for marketing.  https://www.arena.net/en/careers

[SlayerXX.7138]

6 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Seems there are many more hiring positions open for non-marketing than for marketing. 

Probably because the marketing guys stay and Game developer come and go. Eod had 36 Marketing personal + a handful of commerce designer and around 80 Game developer(gameplay and encounters). Which seems absurd ratio for an expansion that hadn't much of a campaign. I mean the person right now running the show and gets to say where development time is spent is a Brand management guy.

 

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

2 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Probably because the marketing guys stay and Game developer come and go. Eod had 36 Marketing personal + a handful of commerce designer and around 80 Game developer(gameplay and encounters). Which seems absurd ratio for an expansion that hadn't much of a campaign. I mean the person right now running the show and gets to say where development time is spent is a Brand management guy.

 

Is that so?  I would love to see where that information was posted.  Please cite. 

[Kozumi.5816]

11 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

None of this changes the fact that no one should assume that specific business models would dictate how revenues are divided up into budgets like development. That's the problem we are talking about when people justify subs ... because they assume it would be 'better' for getting content or fixing bugs or whatever else they imagine the need is. 

FF14 and WoW both are monthly sub games and both have MUCH better track records for consistent updates and bug fixes.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[Dante.1508]

12 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

The reason I didn't mention it is because credits have so ridiculously inflated over the past few years that pretty much anything cool is a billion credits (that's the max for the GTN you can list items for). So effectively that puts people who don't like to farm a lot (which is most people) at a big disadvantage as well as new players in general.

GW2 doesn't have this inflation. If indeed SWTOR didn't have such a huge inflation, I would've mentioned it, but as it stands it's completely unequal to GW2's system because of the billions of credits that go around in there. I admit I haven't played SWTOR since end of last year. Has anything been done to significantly reduce the ridiculous inflation since then?

Edit: also the cartel coins to credits conversion (gem to gold in GW2), really depends on the item. So you can't expect the same return in credits for the same item. One item that costs 1000 CCs may get you 100 million credits or less and another item gets you 1 billion credits. It's a complete cowboy market.

Actually i disagree about SWTOR, well i agree about the farming.. But the design is way better imo than here, buy a few cash shop random loot boxes Less than $40 AU stick on trading post and become a billionaire there over night, then you can buy all the cash shop skins you'd ever need or more.

Sure it requires some real life money but its not a real lot, Here one mount costs $50AU.

3 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Probably because the marketing guys stay and Game developer come and go. Eod had 36 Marketing personal + a handful of commerce designer and around 80 Game developer(gameplay and encounters). Which seems absurd ratio for an expansion that hadn't much of a campaign. I mean the person right now running the show and gets to say where development time is spent is a Brand management guy.

 

If true that actually explains a lot... We aren't all data mining their bitcoin without customers knowing are we that would explain why everything is so grindy.. Jokes aside that is why you are careful who you have running your companies..

Edited May 31, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Despot.3048]

59 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

FF14 and WoW both are monthly sub games and both have MUCH better track records for consistent updates and bug fixes.

I see we're not taking monthly playerbase into account here. 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

FF14 and WoW both are monthly sub games and both have MUCH better track records for consistent updates and bug fixes.

That's nice ... doesn't change anything I said.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[ArchonWing.9480]

Besides the infinite salvage kits, character slot expansions, and bank/bag slot expansions, you don't really need to acknowledge the gem store at all. Efficient players probably don't even need to acknowledge most of the above either.

And I have character model limit set to low, so rest assured, that uber skin won't be noticed by me or by many others.

Also, this isn't a charity. Something has to keep the game going.

And build templates could be better.

Edited May 31, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Khisanth.2948]

1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

FF14 and WoW both are monthly sub games and both have MUCH better track records for consistent updates and bug fixes.

Path of Exile is a F2P game which also has a much better record ...I don't think it is the business model that makes the difference.

[CashCow.9548]

Well then how are they supposed to make money and keep the game online, if not from cash shop? 

 

You should be thankful most if not everything in cash shop is cosmetic or offers a small QoL. Many other games take a waaaayyy different approach.

 

[Turin.6921]

On 5/28/2022 at 10:02 PM, Malthurius.6870 said:

2. Build templates are a sin; a blemish, a pestilent blight. For anyone who engages in at least 2 game modes, this is almost nothing, in fact, it's worse than nothing. Spec templates should just be free. I'm more accepting of armor templates because they function as additional storage for armor items which was a big hog of space before. In fact, just remove Spec templates entirely and just make build loadouts character based instead of account wide, and give all the slots for free.
 

I will not get too much into the monetization discussion as it is unreasonable to accuse Gw2 as having bad monetization compared to others. Yes all the stuff you are saying about lootboxes and mount skins are correct but do not really affect the game to the slightest. There are no drawbacks to ignoring the lootboxy stuff on the gemstore. And if you want mount skins then just buy the mount bundles that come up that are actually good value for money.

But to get some things straight for the templates that do affect gameplay. If your main issue is build templates (Spec as you say) they are basically free. You can save as many codes as you want and resuse them in game. There is absolutely no reason to buy any of them and you can use as many as you want through the codes.  And if you want something that looks better and is more convenient than having a notepad with the codes there is the Buildpad overlay ARC addon that you can use in game: https://buildpad.gw2archive.eu/

Edited May 31, 2022 by Turin.6921

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

On 5/28/2022 at 3:28 PM, costepj.5120 said:

I've played most days for the past 10 years. At that low price, GW2 would have cost me $1,700. Fortunately for me I haven't had to spend 1 cent over and above the box prices. I have every QoL/cosmetic upgrade I want - all obtained in game or by exchanging gold for gems.

I left WOW to get away from subs. If GW2 had a sub, I for one wouldn't be here.

All gems you bought with that  gold were paid for by someone else.

Also, assuming a yearly sub for 10 years would set you back ~$1300 USD unless you're paying monthly, which you don't do if you're planning on taking month long breaks between play sessions which would lower the price even more.  You not spending a dime and spending a ton of time farming to get everything from the gemstore is good for you, but also know that a good majority of players don't do that, else this game would have been dead a loooong time ago due to lack of funds.  See, what their business model is, is to make people want to spend more than a monthly sub per month. They're appealing to whales and those with a ton of expendable income.  It's why there are mount skins and whole armor sets that cost about the same as the box cost of some expansions.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Thank goodness most of the playerbase are whales, evidently.  Makes it nice for the (few?) rest of us. 

[SlayerXX.7138]

10 hours ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Is that so?  I would love to see where that information was posted.  Please cite. 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_credits/End_of_Dragons Credits listing who worked on what. 36 Marketing guys. If you want the exact number of gameplay developers and encounter designer you have to be careful as a ton of Dev work in multiple sections of the game. Should be around 80.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/arenanet-studio-update-the-future-of-guild-wars-2/

"Josh “Grouch” Davis is taking on the role of Game Director. He’s responsible for the “what” and “why” of Guild Wars 2 development. He started as a Guild Wars community content creator and joined the dev team in 2013<as Brand manager>, allowing us to continue a long tradition of recruiting team members from our passionate player community."

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Joshua_Davis

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Gehenna.3625]

12 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Actually i disagree about SWTOR, well i agree about the farming.. But the design is way better imo than here, buy a few cash shop random loot boxes Less than $40 AU stick on trading post and become a billionaire there over night, then you can buy all the cash shop skins you'd ever need or more.

Sure it requires some real life money but its not a real lot, Here one mount costs $50AU.

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. You seem to think that you can buy a lot for 1 billion credits in SWTOR but all the cool stuff costs that much, so being a billionaire means jack all. You spend billions as well after all.

And indeed what you suggest does require real money and that's the thing for a lot of people here. They don't want to or can't afford to spend real money. For them, this system is definitely better.

SWTOR has lightsaber skins that cost more than 50AU dollars and they weren't available anymore on the GTN when I still played because 1 billion credits wasn't enough for them (and it's the max you can ask).

Over here you can can buy those 50AU dollar mounts with in game gold.

Also SWTOR has extremely little in skins that you can earn in game. GW2 has a TON of skins you can earn in game. That alone makes the set up of GW2 better imo.

So yeah, those are my reasons and if you don't agree, well, that's cool. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Gehenna.3625

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

2 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_credits/End_of_Dragons Credits listing who worked on what. 36 Marketing guys. If you want the exact number of gameplay developers and encounter designer you have to be careful as a ton of Dev work in multiple sections of the game. Should be around 80.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/arenanet-studio-update-the-future-of-guild-wars-2/

"Josh “Grouch” Davis is taking on the role of Game Director. He’s responsible for the “what” and “why” of Guild Wars 2 development. He started as a Guild Wars community content creator and joined the dev team in 2013<as Brand manager>, allowing us to continue a long tradition of recruiting team members from our passionate player community."

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Joshua_Davis

 

 

You must not have been around for long, if you think Josh Davis spent much time as a 'Brand Manager', or what that entails.  (Tip: the 'brand' was PvP and esports; hardly anything to do with the Gem Store.  /smh)

You are using the staff from NC West for your citation?  That would be a first.  How about using ArenaNet staff. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Inculpatus cedo.9234

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

You are using the staff from NC West for your citation?  That would be a first.  How about using ArenaNet staff.

I provided the citation for my claims. Its the official credit for eod, which is what I was talking about. Don't get a cramp while shifting these goalposts. If you can provide a detail list like the credits about ArenaNet Staff instead of a Snapshot from it's current hiring needs that would be cool of course.

1 hour ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

You must not have been around for long, if you think Josh Davis spent much time as a 'Brand Manager', or what that entails.  (Tip: the 'brand' was PvP and esports; hardly anything to do with the Gem Store.  /smh)

That's nice and all that the marketing/?eventhost?/Brand manager person is a cool gamer. I do indeed not know him, all I see is someone who never developed the game is heading the game development. As PvP is the least supported game mode I'm sure its his marketing talent not his pvp Expertise that did qualify him for that position. Anyhow believe what you want.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

I provided the citation for my claims. Its the official credit for eod, which is what I was talking about. Don't get a cramp while shifting these goalposts. If you can provide a detail list like the credits about ArenaNet Staff instead of a Snapshot from it's current hiring needs that would be cool of course.

That's nice and all that the marketing/?eventhost?/Brand manager person is a cool gamer. I do indeed not know him, all I see is someone who never developed the game is heading the game development. As PvP is the least supported game mode I'm sure its his marketing talent not his pvp Expertise that did qualify him for that position. Anyhow believe what you want.

Credits from an expansion are NOT an indication of dollars budgeted for a development or any other aspect of Anet's business. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[SlayerXX.7138]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Credits from an expansion are NOT an indication of dollars spent or budgeted for a development or any other aspect of Anet's business

That is a nice statement. Proof? Or is this just your opinion stated as fact? At least some reasoning behind your statement? No? I see.

It certainly is better then nothing. Or a 1 day snapshot of A-net Job offers. Believe what you want but pls stop to "disprove" my Points by declaring them wrong. I declare you are wrong.
Free to play, buy for extra comes with trade offs. These trade offs aren't worth it to OP, but are worth it to you. Stating repeatedly that they are no tradeoffs with the gem model doesn't make it true, no matter how much you and other people would like that to be the case.

P.S. PLs fix the golem bug in Bojarch marches. Doesn't despawn after the event.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

It's not a 'free to play' business model.  Get your facts right.  It's Buy-to-Play. 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Albi.7250 said:

That is a nice statement. Proof? 

 

I don't need proof to know expansion credits don't tell you how much revenues are budgeted to different business activities. I don't see any dollar signs or numbers there ... do you?

I mean ... let's put that burden on you as well then. This IS your claim right? It would be unfair to not scrutinize your own arguments at the same level you are requiring for everyone else RIGHT?

How much money was budgeted to marketing for EoD BASED ON THE CREDITS?

Edited May 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952