Why keep pitting different groups of players against each other?

[Astralporing.1957]

23 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Do you have an example of those guild led meta event trains turning toxic?

A very good example was the original Tequatl (well, the original reworked tequatl of course). Before the nerfs, it was actually quite challenging for the average map, so it was quite nomal for different guilds to try to organize it. With, let's say, mixed results. There was especially one guild (which i won't name due to forum rules) that was widely known to be extremely kitten about it. Including stuff like arriving on a map and telling everyone that they will now be in charge, and that everyone needs to listen to them or gtfo (and if people won't listen and won't gtfo, they will make sure for the event to fail).

That was of course an extreme example, but even without it, if the event failed (which, at that time, it still often did), or it looked like there might be trouble, the toxicity levels were often going through the roof. Including personally pointing out the "individuals responsible" (because it was definitely that one person afk near the turrets that made the whole event fail, right?). Or commanders getting into blameslinging war with the crowd (and sometimes with each other, if there were multiple guilds present or some commanders were non-guilded volunteers).

Initial HoT metas could turn this as well (nowadays the success rate is so high people are mostly chill about it, because even major failures can usually be compensated for).

One might think reading that, that this is limited to more difficult metas and that toxicity gets created by difficulty and frustration from event failing (or chance at event failing). This is not necessarily so, as the toxicity that was present around many of the old farm metas (like champion trains in Queensdale and Frostgorge, or Breaking the ice frostgorge meta farm) can prove. Nowadays i don't see it all that often, fortunately, but maybe it's because i just don't go to the right (or wrong) places.

[ArchonWing.9480]

20 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Including stuff like arriving on a map and telling everyone that they will now be in charge, and that everyone needs to listen to them or gtfo

Lol, I've always been curious on what people are thinking. Unlike instances, there's no dictatorial abilities. I usually just laugh it off.

I mean if they are polite about it, I'll consider it, but it seems like such a ridiculous attitude. Why is it whatever I'm doing (say map completion) is less important then whatever they're doing? And why would I comply with mannerless  people that I owe nothing to?

 

20 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

(like champion trains in Queensdale)

That was a very pointless conflict there as well. Putting a place where people farm and will naturally come into conflict with new players because it's literally the first zone they'll play in would lead to disaster. But I suppose some of us were taken aback on how greedy people could get.

But that gets back on my earlier point that some veteran players not understanding that people are new aren't going to go along with the plan and they consider it some kind of insult.

We still see it with some core maps (including the most recent Arah incident). Yes, some people were deliberately messing around but you might have had some new players being caught in the crossfire. Here we have players in what is probably the first real endgame farming zone being harassed by people on their Nth legendary. All over some easy stuff. Yikes.

Edited May 31, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Fuchslein.8639]

13 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Lol, I've always been curious on what people are thinking. Unlike instances, there's no dictatorial abilities. I usually just laugh it off.

I mean if they are polite about it, I'll consider it, but it seems like such a ridiculous attitude. Why is it whatever I'm doing (say map completion) is less important then whatever they're doing? And why would I comply with mannerless  people that I owe nothing to?

 

That was a very pointless conflict there as well. Putting a place where people farm and will naturally come into conflict with new players because it's literally the first zone they'll play in would lead to disaster. But I suppose some of us were taken aback on how greedy people could get.

But that gets back on my earlier point that some veteran players not understanding that people are new aren't going to go along with the plan and they consider it some kind of insult.

We still see it with some core maps (including the most recent Arah incident). Yes, some people were deliberately messing around but you might have had some new players being caught in the crossfire. Here we have players in what is probably the first real endgame farming zone being harassed by people on their Nth legendary. All over some easy stuff. Yikes.

But this behaviour is quite predictable. More so for anet, who has years of years of gaming-experience. And even so, they made DE a map where people like you can mean the other people wastet 2h of their life because this few % of dmg are missing.

I'm not a fan of toxicity, but for me, Anet is totaly at fault at this point for exactly that.

They should know better. And they probaly know this, when you when you think of the people here who keep coming up with their statistics and everything. Hhowever, they simply do not care anymore, in my eyes.

[Ashantara.8731]

3 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

LS1 is regarded as one of the biggest mistakes in MMO history. Even the devs regret the blunder that was LS1. It nearly killed this game.

As I pointed out before: NOT for its story...

[SlateSloan.3654]

5 hours ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

With regard to WvW:
Untrue.
Build and gear are much more important in WvW than any other game mode. This is why WvW specific guilds usually mandate new players to run, gear and learn very specific builds.
Skill is certainly a large component of the small scale roaming game, but as soon as you are talking about groups larger than 7-8 people (the vast majority of WvW play), the only skill involved is typically positioning, staying on tag, and fufilling your role.
While certainly more difficult than the vast majority of PvE content, "stack on tag" is not what I would call skill expression.

ofc in wvw the higher the player numbers the more easy it is to play but chosing the right gear and skillssets is not what alone makes a good player. The other side is mechanical keyboard and mouse usage, keybindings and positioning.

You can have the best gear and build for your class in a wvw zerg yet you can be the reason why your group dies or gets nothing killed if you not play it properly. Look at all the necros not stripping boons properly and their commanders wonder why the squad gets nothing killed in times of a boonball meta... Or all the dps players who perform under average and deliver hardly any damage. So wvw is indeed decided by player skill no matter what group size. Why do some servers getting rolled over while their players carry the right builds?

btw wvw is not only about zerg. There are even single players still existing who can defend an keep just by using siege the right way before the zerg gets through the doors or walls. This is player skill and knowledge cause alot cant do such but just stand on the walls casting nonsense skills from above until they getting rolled over finally inside the interior...

Also have a look at how many players these days run in wvw with high amount of AP but low wvw rank. these are pve players either trying wvw out or are there for the GoB and you directly feel the difference specially if they are the support guard in your group...

Why do commanders preach the gameplay almost every day? Cause wvw is decided by player skill.

And yet can again tell you the too easy pve open world produces that people dont think about that before going in group content cause they have success on the map where they shouldnt have if they dont take care or dont prepare for anything at least if pve was properly designed.

[ArchonWing.9480]

12 hours ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

But this behaviour is quite predictable. More so for anet, who has years of years of gaming-experience. And even so, they made DE a map where people like you can mean the other people wastet 2h of their life because this few % of dmg are missing.

Maybe they should get good instead of opting to throw more bodies at it then, so that success isn't dependent on a few % of damage. A few % increase in dps is just some well timed dodges or omitting unnecessary ones.

Them choosing to blame other players is no one's fault but their own, and there is a solution to that toxicity built into the game-- the report function. And also block. Perhaps people aren't listening to them, because they are blocked?

Now maybe it is true that Anet could have done the simple decision of having tiered rewards so people do not waste their time. But I do not see why Anet or anyone else has to put up with such childish behavior nor should we accept any responsibility for that nonsense.

Nobody forced them to do this meta event at this very moment. If they don't feel confident, then wait til people figure it out more and have the content on farm like most other content that felt impossible on release and became trivial later on.

If one wants to be an elitist on the cutting edge, then put in the effort. There's way too many players that try to act elitist but are just part of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

But leave me out of it. They didn't pay for my game, and they certainly aren't paying for my next legendary. If they won't play nice, then just go play another game that's more suited for that kind of kitten measuring.

tl;dr If toxic players are the problem, then remove the toxic players, not the content. And there's a mountain of evidence that it has nothing to do with difficulty as it's been a problem even with faceroll content such as Queensdale Champions.

tl;dr2 They should be getting off my map.

Edited May 31, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Tukaram.8256]

17 hours ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

But this behaviour is quite predictable. More so for anet, who has years of years of gaming-experience. And even so, they made DE a map where people like you can mean the other people wastet 2h of their life because this few % of dmg are missing.

I'm not a fan of toxicity, but for me, Anet is totaly at fault at this point for exactly that.

They should know better. And they probaly know this, when you when you think of the people here who keep coming up with their statistics and everything. Hhowever, they simply do not care anymore, in my eyes.

A-Net's game design is not my fault.  If I am on a map, I am there for exploring or map completion.  If I stumble on to an event, I may or may not participate.  If there are people organizing things - I will not know.  I do not ignore them specifically, but as a solo player I do not have my chat box open.  Why would I? If I am talking to myself... I do not need the chat box ha ha 😎

[ArchonWing.9480]

11 minutes ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

I do not have my chat box open.

Yea, I imagine a lot of people do this.

I disable chat in combat but have chat bubbles. But I usually do not pay attention when in combat anyways.

Edited June 1, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Dante.1508]

On 5/31/2022 at 2:02 PM, ArchonWing.9480 said:

And there's nothing wrong with that. 

I don't pvp myself, because I don't care to learn about it or how skills work in there. But if I go in there and get flattened, that's on me.

  

Really? Any source on that?

Most of the sources have been removed or long gone but i agree with Kozumi it was a massive Anet error at the time, it also followed after Southsun which was also pretty much hated by all. Those two additions nearly ended Gw2 at the time, damage control was put into effect etc, it was actually a bigger issue at the time than even Heart of Thorns release was..

Either people here are too new or have forgotten the dramas of LS1. Its was universally hated by so many, to this day people still remember LS1 as the content that destroyed some very beautiful maps that people liked from before it.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Dante.1508 said:

Either people here are too new or have forgotten the dramas of LS1. Its was universally hated by so many, to this day people still remember LS1 as the content that destroyed some very beautiful maps that people liked from before it.

To be more precise, it wasn't universally hated. More like, it was an extremely contentious issue, with some people hating it, and some very fond of it. Ultimately it was resolved on one side, but from devs' point of view it was more a result of economy than anything else. Not only it was hard for them to keep up the high development schedule, but it was even harder to justify that kind of effort for content that would be transient, and would be accessible to players only during a specific, short timeframe. In the long run, the episodic (and repeatable) nature of LS2 turned out to be much better for the game. Just as lack of access to LS1 story became a problem when new players started arriving later, and had to deal with gaps in the storyline.

In short, it's not that the idea was bad by itself (even if some choices, like the design of the new LA i'd call highly questionable), it just turned out to be unsustainable in the long run.

[Fuchslein.8639]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

To be more precise, it wasn't universally hated. More like, it was an extremely contentious issue, with some people hating it, and some very fond of it. Ultimately it was resolved on one side, but from devs' point of view it was more a result of economy than anything else. Not only it was hard for them to keep up the high development schedule, but it was even harder to justify that kind of effort for content that would be transient, and would be accessible to players only during a specific, short timeframe. In the long run, the episodic (and repeatable) nature of LS2 turned out to be much better for the game. Just as lack of access to LS1 story became a problem when new players started arriving later, and had to deal with gaps in the storyline.

In short, it's not that the idea was bad by itself (even if some choices, like the design of the new LA i'd call highly questionable), it just turned out to be unsustainable in the long run.

I think such an idea would be so cool in a single player game, where the would evolves around you with what you do. Would buy this asap. But in an MMO with live maps and everything, yeah, not so well thought out.

[Astralporing.1957]

Just now, Fuchslein.8639 said:

I think such an idea would be so cool in a single player game, where the would evolves around you with what you do. Would buy this asap. But in an MMO with live maps and everything, yeah, not so well thought out.

Oh, it actually could work out, but would require far more resource investment in LS, and would require the whole story to be done that way. No personal storyline everyone shares would be possible there.

Basically, some sort of sandbox MMORPG where the world is alive, and your "story" is in how you interact with that living world certainly would have potential. If we could truly make the world alive, that is, and that would have required way more than what LS1 gave. So, probably not sustainable.

[Fuchslein.8639]

19 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Oh, it actually could work out, but would require far more resource investment in LS, and would require the whole story to be done that way. No personal storyline everyone shares would be possible there.

Basically, some sort of sandbox MMORPG where the world is alive, and your "story" is in how you interact with that living world certainly would have potential. If we could truly make the world alive, that is, and that would have required way more than what LS1 gave. So, probably not sustainable.

This sounds super cool. But i don't know if i would want something in an MMO, even if it would be sustainable. Esspecially if you join later and therefore, like LS 1, miss a big part of the game.

I know, it would not be like in SP games with MP, where content just ends at one point. But i don't know. Eventually, i just can't imagine how this would work out in an MMO who runs(hopefully) for years.

And somehow i think, this would make this pit between diferent groups even larger, because you don't have the time to do all this stuff when you have problems or just not enough time. Of course, then you could say, you don't have to do anything. But for me this would be a point where i think i i should be playing this game entilerly. When i've been rushed to play content, and not just activate the free story-parts, because it could change important parts who let me confused when i don't play.

[Gehenna.3625]

On 5/31/2022 at 9:16 AM, Fuchslein.8639 said:

But this behaviour is quite predictable. More so for anet, who has years of years of gaming-experience. And even so, they made DE a map where people like you can mean the other people wastet 2h of their life because this few % of dmg are missing.

Not gaming experience but game-making experience. That's a very different thing.

On 5/31/2022 at 9:16 AM, Fuchslein.8639 said:

I'm not a fan of toxicity, but for me, Anet is totaly at fault at this point for exactly that.

They do create a good feeding ground for toxicity with things like this, so I would say the enable it and imo they should know better. The toxicity itself is still the player's individual responsibility and fault though.

On 5/31/2022 at 9:16 AM, Fuchslein.8639 said:

They should know better. And they probaly know this, when you think of the people here who keep coming up with their statistics and everything. However, they simply do not care anymore, in my eyes.

I think it's due to their sources of information on their player base. They do talk to some fans directly and indirectly. They can see what goes on in social media, but the biggest silent group of players aren't there. For that they have metrics but metrics only tell you what people do without the context of why. I mean lots of people might do something because it's worth it to them, but they don't actually enjoy it, for example.

Numbers are pretty meaningless without context after all. And try as they might, they're still not objective in their judgments. Mind you, I don't think anyone that creates something can be entirely objective, so that's more of an observation than a criticism. And they do have their own agenda/objectives with the game. And I feel that these objectives are not aligned with what players want. Sometimes that's for a very good reason, but not always.

I think they're trying to achieve something with the strikes and this meta, that's not going to work, namely the player base being more skilled at playing their classes. It might work for a small segment of players but in general it won't work for two reasons. The first is that a lot of people are not interested in learning the complexities of their classes. Secondly, Anet's skipping to a higher goal before getting the basics done. Most people still don't know (or care) when to CC and why or to dodge/step out of damage circles.

The reason for that is because they don't need to do that for 99% of the content they play. So why then suddenly expect the players to learn this? You can't force them because they'll stop playing that content. We've seen that time and again and I'm sure a lot of people don't do strikes either.

So yeah, it feels like they're disconnected from their player base. They do understand what the more vocal players want but they are in opposition of each other a lot. But, a complex combat system that you don't need for most of the content in this game....well, that's the root of the issue I feel. If you simplify it you will lose a part of your player base, but if you make content that makes use of those complexities you will lose many more. I don't envy Anet here, but they created the issue themselves, whether they knew it at the time or not.

Anyways, that's how I see it.

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,
Just a reminder to keep it civil and please try not to stray too far off-topic. I've removed some posts.
Regards.

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

Anet simply tries to recreate LS1 where they can, and the original LS1 also had these WvW achievements. 

Dependant on future episodes you might see more of it ( some of the thumper devices that were in PvE and WvW maps and several Aetherblade related ones in EotM).

 

It's not that they don't know better, it's more like they try to make the experience resemble the original LS1 where they can. 

 

[FrigginPaco.4178]

This split from players was always there and was never really addressed by any official post anywhere. I remember way back when, explorable mode dungeons were often filtered by achievement points because that was the only metric people had to assess whether or not a person played the game for some goal. The problem with that was that there were then, and are now, people who have inflated AP simply from having logged in and it does not reflect combat prowess or skill in any way, shape, or form.

That is, however, a split within PvE content, not even including the other formats of the game in WvW and sPvP.

You would think that having 3 distinct game modes would allow for people to be happy in their own camps, but that goes entirely by the wayside when you see the frequency of attention given to each mode. By far, the most frequently updated section of the game is the Gem Store, and then PvE, WvW, PvP, and balance patches, in about that order.

PvE now has several different 'plots' of repeatable content; dungeons (launch), fractals (Nov 2012), raids (HoT 2015), strikes (Sept 17, 2019 IBS/ Feb 28, 2022 EoD), story and related achievement to each of those categories.

WvW saw some development in reward schema earlier with the reward tracks etc. and had 2 maps added in total: Edge of the Mists in December of 2013 and the Desert Borderland was added in 2015 without a new map added since then (7 years).

PvP had 4 maps at launch for 1 game mode (conquest), one of which was removed because it had underwater elements (Raid on the Capricorn), though it came back later as Revenge of the Capricorn. Still, only 5 conquest maps were added to the game to-date. Stronghold was a new mode that was added, but... we just don't talk about stronghold...

All of this to say - even though there are real chasms of ability between players of the same game modes, not to mention between each game mode, so much of the resentment comes from the fact that there have been significant content droughts for nearly every game mode and worse - with overlaps for each one. You get fast and easy resentment when you feel like someone else is getting more than you; and usually the people who are getting it are those who are able to drop some money to the cash store without it affecting them too much - or worse people who spend when they shouldn't.

I recognize I can't blame the Gem Store for everything, and it would be foolish of me to use that as the single focal point, but... you can clearly see where the development time goes. And this isn't beginning to refer to any projects that were not fulfilled.

[Farohna.6247]

Wait..there were other players in your OS puzzle?  Mine was completely empty, like crickets chirping empty.  I haven't been in there in three years, and it was empty then too.  Guess player experience may vary wildly. Mostly I just don't like falling in the dark room and having to redo it over... and over...

[ugrakarma.9416]

50 minutes ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Wait..there were other players in your OS puzzle?  Mine was completely empty, like crickets chirping empty.  I haven't been in there in three years, and it was empty then too.  Guess player experience may vary wildly. Mostly I just don't like falling in the dark room and having to redo it over... and over...

i play NA prime time for years, sometimes i hoped on OS, never seen anyone too. only in the first year i started gw2(2016 i guess)

Edited June 1, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[Farohna.6247]

Just now, ugrakarma.9416 said:

i play NA prime time for years, sometimes i hoped on OS, never seen anyone too. only in the first year i started gw2(2016 i guess)

Yeh I play at the same times on NA and  there is no one, thought maybe there's might be because of LWS1 but nope.  Map chat is active for WvW but nothing in OS.

[Dreams.3128]

People keep pitting themselves against each other because they think it's the other person's fault they can't do the things that they wanna do. Have you seen how many times I've seen casuals say: 'delete PvP or get rid of raids' because it doesn't benefit them? Oh it's OUR fault this one particular guy said your build is bad or it is OUR fault that you some pvp sweat yelled at you. 

Every single time I've seen a casual person come to blows with content that puts them out of their comfort zone I've seen them ACTIVELY want to get rid of it. And that's particularly weird because they are a majority in this game. I haven't seen as many pvpers/wvwers/raider ever say delete OW content or blame their issues on casuals.

It's weird and almost backwards.

[Hesione.9412]

1 hour ago, Lilyanna.9361 said:

People keep pitting themselves against each other because they think it's the other person's fault they can't do the things that they wanna do. Have you seen how many times I've seen casuals say: 'delete PvP or get rid of raids' because it doesn't benefit them? Oh it's OUR fault this one particular guy said your build is bad or it is OUR fault that you some pvp sweat yelled at you. 

Every single time I've seen a casual person come to blows with content that puts them out of their comfort zone I've seen them ACTIVELY want to get rid of it. And that's particularly weird because they are a majority in this game. I haven't seen as many pvpers/wvwers/raider ever say delete OW content or blame their issues on casuals.

It's weird and almost backwards.

Obsidian Sanctum, being WvW, is out of the comfort zone of PvE players, and highly annoying for a bunch of others. No-one is saying to delete OS. What I am asking is: why make PvE players go into a zone where they can be killed by other players? 

 

I think OS should be moved out of WvW and into PvE. The only time I've done it was for Dusk and for guild missions, and only once for the latter. Additionally, if one has their tier level up in WvW, it decays while in OS. That would have been okay back in the days when people pipped down because you lost all your participation when you exited WvW. That is not the case now.

[Gibson.4036]

11 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Most people still don't know (or care) when to CC and why or to dodge/step out of damage circles.

The reason for that is because they don't need to do that for 99% of the content they play.

It’s worse than that it’s not necessary. There are enough mobs with breakbars where it is better to ignore them and just dps the mob down that players get a mixed message regardless of the shiny new tutorial.

[Hesione.9412]

Again, this thread is about having groups of players with differing goals forced together.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 6/2/2022 at 3:27 AM, Gibson.4036 said:

It’s worse than that it’s not necessary. There are enough mobs with breakbars where it is better to ignore them and just dps the mob down that players get a mixed message regardless of the shiny new tutorial.

Indeed. And two earliest cases where you actually don't want players to cc (because it makes things worse) are major events in HoT (Gerent and Mouth of Mordremoth) so are extremely visible.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Astralporing.1957