Im pretty sick of failing Dragons End meta

[Erise.5614]

24 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Not in this fight. This fight teaches people that dps is the primary mechanic that counts,

My observations are quite similar to @Erise.5614's. For the most part, people do the mechanic parts (like splits or orbs) without significant difference between good or bad squads. Overall you can gain (or lose) here maybe a minute at most when taken together. Most succesful squads succeed by way more than that, and most fail squads also fail by more than that.

The real difference is twofold: primarily the dps during burn phases, and secondary the performance during the last 20%. That last burn is the worst, due to the massive mechanic spam that happens. It's absolutely critical to burn the boss as fast as possible there, or the phase will stretch out longer and longer, with your dps getting lower and lower with each seconds (or shoudl i say minutes?). Notice, btw, how the second factor is heavily influenced by the first.

Hint: even the best, "always succesful" groups have people failimg the mechanics during that last 20%. They just finish it much faster due to higher dps, so they don't have to face as many of those mechanics as the "fail" groups.

My observation is that even DPS during the last burn phase isn't very important. Clearing thornhearts is good and clearing that phase fast makes success more likely, sure. 

But having looked at about 10 runs in detail now the biggest difference is whether Tail shows up followed by the amount of bites. Which is why a map with just 1k less average map DPS ends up needing 2 minutes more. ~30 seconds more of necessary Soo Won attack time. About 30 seconds longer for mini bosses and 10 seconds longer for both water phases. And about 40 seconds just because the DPS was too low and they had to do a second tail.

With DPS low enough to require 3 tails, it's very rare to still see a success. Tails are built in such a way that they keep the overall duration you have for attacking Soo Wons HP within ~1-2 minute between extremely fast runs and failed runs. Assuring you actually need to clear the DPS benchmark. 

[venator.8326]

11 hours ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

People really need to stop with this mindset... Open World is NOT meant to be hardcore content, it never was

Open World is literally casual content, that's why it's OPEN WORLD, it ain't supposed to be Raids/Strikes/Fractals... 

Agree 100% with you, open world content should be for the casual player as intended and raids/strikes/fractals for those that want some challenge. How often I hear GW2 is a casual game for those that want to have fun with the limited time investment that they have to play the game, well EOD is not that content because it is simply bad. Shilling for Anet must stop, we deserve more from them...I don't know what feedback the Dev's are actually considering the right feedback to improve the content.. But as it stands now they seem blinded somehow...  

[Zephire.8049]

Did this meta the other day for the first time in over 2 months because that's how long it took to be able to stomach it again. While it was successful (barely), you know what most of my gameplay was? Being off the computer doing chores because I couldn't leave the map and map comp doesn't take that long.

If not for the strong urge to knock out some specialization collection achievements and 2 hours to spare, I'd have never even bothered for one Summoning Stone, a high chance of failure, and not being able to play GW2 while waiting for the dang thing to start (and hoping the commander wouldn't change instances last minute to "lose the pugs" again).

It's a poorly designed meta (with an otherwise well-designed fight) that Anet seems determined to kill off and LFG is crucial for increasing the chances a run will succeed but the game never actually tells players about the LFG or how to use it.

[venator.8326]

1 minute ago, Zephire.8049 said:

Did this meta the other day for the first time in over 2 months because that's how long it took to be able to stomach it again. While it was successful (barely), you know what most of my gameplay was? Being off the computer doing chores because I couldn't leave the map and map comp doesn't take that long.

If not for the strong urge to knock out some specialization collection achievements and 2 hours to spare, I'd have never even bothered for one Summoning Stone, a high chance of failure, and not being able to play GW2 while waiting for the dang thing to start (and hoping the commander wouldn't change instances last minute to "lose the pugs" again).

It's a poorly designed meta (with an otherwise well-designed fight) that Anet seems determined to kill off and LFG is crucial for increasing the chances a run will succeed but the game never actually tells players about the LFG or how to use it.

This 100% 'Anet seems determined to kill off and LFG is crucial for increasing the chances a run will succeed but the game never actually tells players about the LFG or how to use it.' . Even I that came back to the game after several years needed to learn from a Gw2 streamer how the LFG system is used and how it is used the right way. When you look into LFG you can clearly tell by the amounts that are listed that only a handful of players know that it exists. 

[yoni.7015]

42 minutes ago, venator.8326 said:

Agree 100% with you, open world content should be for the casual player as intended and raids/strikes/fractals for those that want some challenge. How often I hear GW2 is a casual game for those that want to have fun with the limited time investment that they have to play the game, well EOD is not that content because it is simply bad. Shilling for Anet must stop, we deserve more from them...I don't know what feedback the Dev's are actually considering the right feedback to improve the content.. But as it stands now they seem blinded somehow...  

Open World is for casual players, even the EoD Open World. You don’t have to be a hardcore raider to do the DE meta, you just need a little bit of organization. If this is too much to ask for you than there is still plenty of meta events for you. 
I really don’t understand all this complaining because there is one event in the entire game where you have to do more than just auto attack. You have to do nothing extraordinary and the event already got nerfed quite a lot. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Luci.7018]

12 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

Open World is for casual players, even the EoD Open World. You don’t have to be a hardcore raider to do the DE meta, you just need a little bit of organization. If this is too much to ask for you than there is still plenty of meta events for you. 
 

We can delay the next set of Strikes for a non-6k-dps-requirements-OW-meta , for us to enjoy .Most casual will benefit from an OW that will offer them money/fun for 3 weeks-2 months , rather than some instances that will last for a couple of days

12 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

I really don’t understand all this complaining because there is one event in the entire game where you have to do more than just auto attack. You have to do nothing extraordinary and the event already got nerfed quite a lot. 

Ahh , ok , so needing to do 6k dps  makes Soon Won an non-brain dead content .

Hmm and i thought that was the mechanics that had to do something about differentiating  an stationary  boss that doesn't do anything  , from the ones that has mechanics /force you to survive  . Thank you raiders for clearing  this up /sarcasm

Edited May 31, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

Open World is for casual players, even the EoD Open World. You don’t have to be a hardcore raider to do the DE meta, you just need a little bit of organization. If this is too much to ask for you than there is still plenty of meta events for you. 

You don't need to be a hardcore raider, but just a little bit of organization is not enough either. You need not only decent organization groupwise, but also a level of personal play that is significantly higher than the OW average.

And while indeed you don't need to be a hardcore raider, what is needed for this event does make you capable of participating in raid content. A group of players that are just slightly below "raid level" will not be able to clear this event either.

Besides, as someone pointed out above, if you want the more challenging content in OW, i sure hope it is being done at the cost to other forms of challenging content, and not at the cost of potential OW events meant for OW players.

2 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

I really don’t understand all this complaining because there is one event in the entire game where you have to do more than just auto attack.

That's the point, you do not have to do more than autoattack. You "just" need to have a proper gear and build so that autoattack of yours deals 15k dps. You indeed do not have to do anything extraordinary. The gate is not based on skill, but on knowledge. Out-of-game knowledge.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Erise.5614]

2 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

Open World is for casual players, even the EoD Open World. You don’t have to be a hardcore raider to do the DE meta, you just need a little bit of organization. If this is too much to ask for you than there is still plenty of meta events for you. 
I really don’t understand all this complaining because there is one event in the entire game where you have to do more than just auto attack. You have to do nothing extraordinary and the event already got nerfed quite a lot. 

This line of argument is kinda funny to me. Because there are several events in the game where you have to do more than auto attack. While DE barely tests skills during the encounter. I'd say fewer than Octovine and no more than Draongstorm. Just needs more DPS.

Which is mostly related to your build and trait setup. Pick the right ones, deal 10k-15k just auto attacking easily. Pick a few wrong ones and you're at 2k-5k.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Erise.5614

[yoni.7015]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You don't need to be a hardcore raider, but just a little bit of organization is not enough either. You need not only decent organization groupwise, but also a level of personal play that is significantly higher than the OW average.

And while indeed you don't need to be a hardcore raider, what is needed for this event does make you capable of participating in raid content. A group of players that are just slightly below "raid level" will not be able to clear this event either.

Being  able to participate in raid content, that’s not difficult to reach. All you need is decent gear and build, both are very easy to get. 
 

[Astralporing.1957]

5 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Being  able to participate in raid content, that’s not difficult to reach. All you need is decent gear and build, both are very easy to get. 
 

Yes. Precisely. As mentioned above, the gate is not skill. The gate is in knowledge first and access to gear second. The issue being that this knowledge is for huge majority of players pretty much inaccessible within the game.

The game offers players a multitude of choices in gearing and buildcraft. The game does not really teach about specific up- and downsides of each choices. And then in some types of content the game suddenly requires you to be geared up and traited in a very specific way, according to only one of multiple possible paths (specifically, the path to maximizing your dps potential at the expense of everything else). While of course not telling you that this is what is required.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[yoni.7015]

6 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. Precisely. As mentioned above, the gate is not skill. The gate is in knowledge first and access to gear second. The issue being that this knowledge is for huge majority of players pretty much inaccessible within the game.

Then get the knowledge outside of the game. There are several websites with a lot of information regarding gear and build. We all have an internet connection and know how to use google, right? It is not rocket science or some kind of witchcraft to get the right information. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Astralporing.1957]

3 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Then get the knowledge outside of the game. There are several websites with a lot of information regarding gear and build. We all have an internet connection and know how to use google, right? It is not rocket science to get the right information. 

Most players will never do that, because they won't even think they should. The very idea that they are expected to do so will be so weird to them it will not even be considered.

That's just how most players work. You might dislike that, but you won't change that. You might as well complain about the weather for all it will accomplish.

[yoni.7015]

6 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Most players will never do that, because they won't even think they should. The very idea that they are expected to do so will be so weird to them it will not even be considered.

That's just how most players work. You might dislike that, but you won't change that. You might as well complain about the weather for all it will accomplish.

I don’t think that’s true, but okay. We already had this discussion and it leads nowhere. 
If I constantly fail an event in the game than of course I do some research (ask google) and look how I can improve. Or I just blame the event like all the people complaining here, because it is always easier to blame someone else. 
 

Edited May 31, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Astralporing.1957]

8 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

I don’t think that’s true, but okay. We already had this discussion and it leads nowhere.

It seems to me you're just stuck on the ideas and expectations of gaming when it was still the province of gamer nerds. Those times ended up over 20 years ago however. Nowadays it's completely normal people that treat games the same way they treat movies books, or playing board games in a circle of friends and family that make up a majority of players. And are the source of majority of income for gaming industry. And it's true even for MMORPGs.

8 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

If I constantly fail an event in the game than of course I do some research (ask google) and look how I can improve.

It's you. Others however will treat it the same way as the TV series that stopped being fun to them. They won;t try to understand why, they will just complain about it, or drop it.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[yoni.7015]

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It seems to me you're just stuck on the ideas and expectations of gaming when it was still the province of gamer nerds. Those times ended up over 20 years ago however. Nowadays it's completely normal people that treat games the same way they treat movies books, or playing board games in a circle of friends and family that make up a majority of players. And are the source of majority of income for gaming industry. And it's true even for MMORPGs.

We live in 2022, it is nowadays completely normal to use the internet. I mean we use the internet all the time for additional information on something. 
after I watched a movie I liked or read a good book, I consult the internet for additional information about the author, about the cast of a movie or whatever interests me about it. I don’t think this behavior is so uncommon. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

We live in 2022, it is nowadays completely normal to use the internet. Even after I watched I movie I liked it read a good book, I consult the internet for additional information about the author or about the cast of a movie. I don’t think this behavior is so uncommon. 

It's not uncommon, but neither it is something majority does. Sure, a good book with good narrative will likely get a big fanbase with people conversing about plot, reading spoilers etc, but that still be only a minority of readers. Most won't ever think about doing something like that. The possibility of doing so won't even occur to them.

[yoni.7015]

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's not uncommon, but neither it is something majority does. Sure, a good book with good narrative will likely get a big fanbase with people conversing about plot, reading spoilers etc, but that still be only a minority of readers. Most won't ever think about doing something like that. The possibility of doing so won't even occur to them.

We all play this game, spend quite some time with it, it is our Hobby. You seriously think that it doesn’t occur to the majority to use the internet, which we already use every day and which has become such a huge part of our everyday life, to look for additional information about our Hobby? Nah I don’t think so. 

[mindcircus.1506]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

We all play this game, spend quite some time with it, it is our Hobby. You seriously think that it doesn’t occur to the majority to use the internet, which we already use every day and which has become such a huge part of our everyday life, to look for additional information about our Hobby? Nah I don’t think so. 

The majority of players do not engage with any game outside the actual game.
They don't google or youtube.
....or use the forums.

[Astralporing.1957]

8 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

We all play this game, spend quite some time with it, it is our Hobby. You seriously think that it doesn’t occur to the majority to use the internet, which we already use every day and which has become such a huge part of our everyday life, to look for additional information about our Hobby? Nah I don’t think so. 

I'm glad you said that. It will let me respond by quoting a post i've once seen on reddit (and liked quite a lot due to how it addresses the core of the divide between different player groups). It pretty much sums up well the whole discussion and why we're talking past each other.

"The disconnect comes from the idea that casuals are treating the game like a hobby. They're not. They're treating it as an entertainment medium. They're treating the game the same way that most people treat a movie, a book or a party game."

For you it's a hobby, something to be passionate about. For many other players it's just a form of entertainment used to kill time, nothing more.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Vaen.2605]

This sounds melodramatic, but I have quit playing because of this meta.  If this was a side meta like TT, I wouldn't care, but DE is front and center in the story, so I take it as an indicator of where this game is headed.  If events like this are the future of the game, I see no point in putting more time and money towards it.

 

People can spout all of their nonsense about using a raid build, gear for dps, etc, etc.  I do, but that does nothing for the 49 other people around me.

 

For reference, I'm 2 for 9 with this meta; it's rare that I'm able to play during primetime which hasn't been an issue in the past.

[Krzysztof.5973]

On the side note... I'd love to see how often DE meta fails on EU vs. NA 🙄

[Gehenna.3625]

15 hours ago, Tiamat.8254 said:

I stopped even bothering to try the meta. It's a waste of time. I get far more rewarding time in HoT. There is just nothing fun about this. If they hadn't let you buy the turtle egg I would probably be still trying. But really zero incentive to go back. It makes me sad because the game has so many great meta events and this just falls flat in every single way.

The great irony is that once you have the turtle, it's a total letdown... I never use it myself.

[Cyninja.2954]

4 hours ago, Luci.7018 said:

We can delay the next set of Strikes for a non-6k-dps-requirements-OW-meta , for us to enjoy .Most casual will benefit from an OW that will offer them money/fun for 3 weeks-2 months , rather than some instances that will last for a couple of days

You mean like it already is? With around 95% of all development resources going to open world?

Quote

Ahh , ok , so needing to do 6k dps  makes Soon Won an non-brain dead content .

Hmm and i thought that was the mechanics that had to do something about differentiating  an stationary  boss that doesn't do anything  , from the ones that has mechanics /force you to survive  . Thank you raiders for clearing  this up /sarcasm

You have that backwards, let me help you understand what the 6k dps requirement is for: to add some type of failure state so players understand that they are doing things wrong. If 10 years of mostly brain dead open world content and afk metas has shown 1 thing it's that allowing some players to bang their head against something long enough without a failure state does nothing to encourage improvement.

That or the developers could introduce event failure based around players failing mechanics and while I would find it hilarious to go down that route, trust me when I am telling you: THAT is not something which you want to see happen. It was bad enough during the Marionette event, and that was only partial based around such failure events.

Failing mechanics and thus having lower dps output, which is one of the main contributors to bad runs, is FAR more lenient and less focused on individual performance being visible to all the other players.

There, you are welcome in understanding WHY certain design decisions are in place. Has nothing to do with players being raiders or not.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Astralporing.1957]

8 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You mean like it already is? With around 95% of all development resources going to open world?

Then i'd rather those "OW resources" went for content OW players would enjoy. Just like you didn't like the idea of sacrificing raid resources for development of easy mode raids, i do not like the idea of using resources meant for OW for creating more hardcore content in that mode. Especially since i don't see any advantages OW players might get from this situation.

8 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You have that backwards, let me help you understand what the 6k dps requirement is for: to add some type of failure state so players understand that they are doing things wrong.

And they do understand that. They see that they're doing something wrong by trying to do DE. Because that's all the game tells them.

The only people capable of seeing the primary issue of this meta (specifically, lack of dps) and capable of improving in that field are already at the level where this kind of improvement is no longer needed.

8 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

If 10 years of mostly brain dead open world content and afk metas has shown 1 thing it's that allowing some players to bang their head against something long enough without a failure state does nothing to encourage improvement.

It has also shown that trying to force players to improve achieves exactly the same result (none), but with the added cost of creating player dissatisfaction.

Again, the issue is not with lack of encouragement for improvement. The issue is that the path towards it is very muddled and unclear in this game. People literally have no idea how they're supposed to improve, and throwing hurdles in front of them does absolutely nothing about this.

8 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

That or the developers could introduce event failure based around players failing mechanics and while I would find it hilarious to go down that route, trust me when I am telling you: THAT is not something which you want to see happen. It was bad enough during the Marionette event, and that was only partial based around such failure events.

Marionette was bad, because it introduced failure mechanic consequences on every single player in the squad. It was not enough for the squad as a whole to do the mechanic - every single player had to be able to do it as well, because every single player could fail the platform phase for everyone.

8 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Failing mechanics and thus having lower dps output, which is one of the main contributors to bad runs, is FAR more lenient and less focused on individual performance being visible to all the other players.

It might have been a good idea if only the dps gap within the community was not so massive. Unfortunately it is, and it is also the hardest "mechanic" to improve at for most players (due to abovementioned lack of information about how to go at it accessible in understandable and easily visible format within the game)

8 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

There, you are welcome in understanding WHY certain design decisions are in place. Has nothing to do with players being raiders or not.

I understand why those decisions are being made. Once, that is. Repeating them year after year when every single attempt ends in failure is what i do not get.

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You have that backwards, let me help you understand what the 6k dps requirement is for: to add some type of failure state so players understand that they are doing things wrong. If 10 years of mostly brain dead open world content and afk metas has shown 1 thing it's that allowing some players to bang their head against something long enough without a failure state does nothing to encourage improvement.

 

That or the developers could introduce event failure based around players failing mechanics and while I would find it hilarious to go down that route, trust me when I am telling you: THAT is not something which you want to see happen. It was bad enough during the Marionette event, and that was only partial based around such failure events.

Failing mechanics and thus having lower dps output, which is one of the main contributors to bad runs, is FAR more lenient and less focused on individual performance being visible to all the other players.

There, you are welcome in understanding WHY certain design decisions are in place. Has nothing to do with players being raiders or not.

I believe it's the opposite .

I believe future strikes CM should be created with the mind of doing 30k dps , so raiders cannot do more dps and skip mechanics (no more lenient 3rd CM strikes , but the 2nd one is prefered) . Most raider agree that doing more dps is more skillful than surviving  ,

while the open world should create the same  unforgiving mechanics (1 shot) , but with lower boss hp over time .

 

In the Marionette you had some minimal amount of people per chain and you couldn't replenish them if they die  . In the open world if they split and someone dies , someone else will hurry to cover his place .

 It had a  bigger change to succeed because public version had +20 more people cap at the 2-week-trial-before-official-released-version . And afterwards people stop caring it , because for 1-2 months there wasn't a public version(auto-group)

Edited May 31, 2022 by Luci.7018