Im pretty sick of failing Dragons End meta

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, Brimstar.9036 said:

If you need help clearing the Meta however, I am always available to help those in need. 

I'm one of those that stopped trying. Frankly, at this point i'm more likely to run raids, seeing as they (at least to me) require far less effort and time investment.

[yoni.7015]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's still way better than a "grand finale" most players avoid.

Again your opinion as fact. How do you know most players avoid it? You have data that shows that?

[yoni.7015]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I'm one of those that stopped trying.

Then why don’t you stop complaining? Why can’t you let the people that enjoy the meta have this one event? 

Edited June 2, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Astralporing.1957]

Just now, yoni.7015 said:

Then why don’t you stop complaining? 

Because i don't want Anet to make that mistake again.

[SlayerXX.7138]

53 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Why OW players have to now walk away from parts of OW just to make a small minority satisfied?

They don't. Only you and Guys who stand afk besides the octovine node do. They guy who brings his legion way station to metas doesn't. The guy who actual equips a push/pull Skill for octovine south doesn't. Why are people so insistent to remove any challenge of the game no matter how small. Why do people even want eod meta to be easy? What would be the point? What need does it fill? Do you really think all the OW players who normally carry the metas, struggle with the eod meta if the halve afk crowd isn't there to pull them down?

Edit: Frontload more rewards or make the prelude shorter if you must, but why is something being challenging so a big deal to people?

Edited June 2, 2022 by Albi.7250

[yoni.7015]

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Because i don't want Anet to make that mistake again.

See for you this might be a mistake, for me it is not.
You don’t like the meta and think it is too difficult but others do like it, that you can’t accept. Instead of just let players enjoy this one meta they like you complain day after day. 

Edited June 2, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

Then why don’t you stop complaining? Why can’t you let the people who enjoy the meta have this one event? 

First it was "just this one event" when it was about TT. Then it was "why you complain about raids, you have OW to yourself". Then it was serpent's ire. Then it's DE.

Again, at least TT was a side meta that did not mess with anything and anyone that didn't like it. Serpent's Ire was a bit more problem, because it was involved in a few collections. DE involves whole map and a lot of achievements (as well as map recompletion) on a final map on the newest expansion.

It's not "just this one event". It's 25% of the newest expansion's maps. It's a clear escalation. And if it's not stopped, there will be more and more of it.

[yoni.7015]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And if it's not stopped, there will be more and more of it.

Let’s hope so. There still are enough meta events for you where you just have to auto attack. The other three meta events in EoD for example. 

Edited June 2, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Astralporing.1957]

Just now, yoni.7015 said:

Let’s hope so. 

Yeah, forum reaction to raids was initially the same. And we all know how it ended.

[yoni.7015]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yeah, forum reaction to raids was initially the same. And we all know how it ended.

That is a bad comparison. But more challenging Open World together with the new Strike Missions could actually be good for raids.

[Erise.5614]

23 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

They don't. Only you and Guys who stand afk besides the octovine node do. They guy who brings his legion way station to metas doesn't. The guy who actual equips a push/pull Skill for octovine south doesn't. Why are people so insistent to remove any challenge of the game no matter how small. Why do people even want eod meta to be easy? What would be the point? What need does it fill? Do you really think all the OW players who normally carry the metas, struggle with the eod meta if the halve afk crowd isn't there to pull them down?

Edit: Frontload more rewards or make the prelude shorter if you must, but why is something being challenging so a big deal to people?

You confuse challenge with the need for high DPS.

DPS checks aren't a challenge. A challenge is about testing ability and skill. However, DPS is mostly driven by the right traits and build. It is testing system knowledge. Only once the DPS check is tight and focused around quite a high level do other combat mechanics start to really become a thing. Only then does it foster player skill. Which is why it works well in raids and CMs of any content.

Challenge in OW is fine. But DPS checks can not be balanced to be enjoyable around that amount of players. It can not be tight to the point where it expands the combat system and necessary skill beyond picking the right build. As you can not expect that of any 50+ random OW players.

So DPS checks should not be a focus in OW. And DPS checks should be presented appropriately ahead of time. So players can make informed decisions in regards to where they can just join and learn while playing and where do they need certain builds to be viable. 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Erise.5614

[SlayerXX.7138]

2 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

DPS checks aren't a challenge. A challenge is about testing ability and skill. However, DPS is mostly driven by the right traits and build.

Its isn't a dps check. Not a real one anyways. People don't lack dps. They ignore/fails mechanics get downed/stunned and of course then lack dps.XD What was it? 7k dps at average and only in dps phases. Lets say we have one subgroup(5 people) with an average of 20k dps that allows 16 people doing 3k dps. That is what? Auto attacking in trailblazer gear with random traits? And that ignores all the neat celestial OW builds. Virtuoso does 10k by just pressing all its buttons.  Celestial battle scare renegade probably too while refusing to die with the options to give out might and alacrity(OW build version).
Which ability and skill? What should be the challenge? If you make it a little easier the people failing right now still wont do it while taking the challenge away from the people who can. If you make it a lot easier you have 10 people doing the meta while the rest sits halve afk on the sidelines(like otovine). At this point what do people want to get nerfed anyways?

Sure High Dps makes falling victim to mechanics more forgiving, but I don't think unoptimized builds are the real fail point or skill check in the meta.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

15 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

 

Edit: Frontload more rewards or make the prelude shorter if you must, but why is something being challenging so a big deal to people?

The majority don't want reward , they want something else .

 

It some people love that chalenge , they will have to take the rewards it offers

If they drop it , because of low of cash (Marionnete) then most likely the community with bicker with each other.

If they do a third time , then i propose a decrease of gold by 15% in Raids+ CM Strikes .and transferring them into EoD/Marrionete/TT/ meta (and multiply  the rewards x2.5 times). So we can acknowledge those events + futures ones,  as part of the "hardcore content"  .

That way , each person   gets increased total rewards , daily(while the CM+ raids are weekly locked)  ,  by the the multiplication of the 15% tax + get even more money , by doing 3-xxx OW challenging events

 

Edit: Do the same with the casual side + Drizzlewood .

Reduce 15% the rewards and double them to other parts of the game , to spread them out

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Ashen.2907]

7 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's 25% of the newest expansion's maps.

No, it is one part of an event that occurs on one of the expac maps.

[Crono.4197]

Seems like this game is trying to slowly go the traditional MMO route, where only DPS and the "git gud" mentality counts, so I do understand why people are worried. The only ones happy about the DE meta and hoping for more are the elitists.

First raids, then hard strikes, then DE meta, what's next? Open World bosses that one shot you and kick you out of the map when you die?  Do we really want Guild Wars 2 to become just another MMO in which all that matters is how much DPS you do and how "pro" you are?

[Fueki.4753]

8 hours ago, Brimstar.9036 said:

I don't think there is anymore tuning they need to do now. They've posted the increase of success runs over failure when the changes took place and its a vastly bigger amount of people clearing it.

The higher success rate most likely is due to there being significantly less attempts at the meta, because many people don't even bother trying anymore.

The higher percentage value does not necessarily mean the meta succeeds more frequently.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Ashen.2907]

54 minutes ago, Crono.4197 said:

Seems like this game is trying to slowly go the traditional MMO route, where only DPS and the "git gud" mentality counts, so I do understand why people are worried. The only ones happy about the DE meta and hoping for more are the elitists.

First raids, then hard strikes, then DE meta, what's next? Open World bosses that one shot you and kick you out of the map when you die?  Do we really want Guild Wars 2 to become just another MMO in which all that matters is how much DPS you do and how "pro" you are?

How much DPS you do is not as important as you imply. It is actually the least important aspect of those "hard strikes" compared to executing mechanics, dodging, and quickly rezzing allies.

Dont get me wrong, doing more DPS will speed the encounter up....but still not the most important aspect.

[yann.1946]

36 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

The higher success rate most likely is due to there being significantly less attempts at the meta, because many people don't even bother trying anymore.

Most likely a combination of both. There is no way to know at the moment how much each of these factors contributes atm (and we do not know how bigg a drop is expected naturally from people playing the expac normally)

36 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

The higher percentage value does not necessarily mean the meta succeeds more frequently.

True, but that would suggest that nobody improved whatsoever which seems a pretty extreme statement to make.

[A Hamster.2580]

Dragons End meta is the only open world meta that made me rethink my build and what skills/weapons to bring. 👌 I think after the adjustments and some of the bug fixes, it is near perfect now. ❤️ Sure sometimes I fail it after a grueling 2 hours. But it does not feel that bad since I never played it for the reward/gold/summoning stone in the first place.   In fact, I sometimes play and join the meta multiple times on a weekend day or vacation day despite the diminishing returns. 

 

I bought the expansion to experience the game play, music, graphics, environment, new theory crafting, etc.  I feel the people complaining about this meta are frustrated because they failed to acquire the virtual currency that is GW2 gold after failing the meta. When you first bought GW2 and open up the game for the very first time, was your goal to make GW2 gold or was it to start a cool new adventure? To experience a story that many devs poured thousands of hours in? 

Thank you Anet for this meta!  

[Erise.5614]

8 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Its isn't a dps check. Not a real one anyways. People don't lack dps. They ignore/fails mechanics get downed/stunned and of course then lack dps.XD What was it? 7k dps at average and only in dps phases. Lets say we have one subgroup(5 people) with an average of 20k dps that allows 16 people doing 3k dps. That is what? Auto attacking in trailblazer gear with random traits? And that ignores all the neat celestial OW builds. Virtuoso does 10k by just pressing all its buttons.  Celestial battle scare renegade probably too while refusing to die with the options to give out might and alacrity(OW build version).
Which ability and skill? What should be the challenge? If you make it a little easier the people failing right now still wont do it while taking the challenge away from the people who can. If you make it a lot easier you have 10 people doing the meta while the rest sits halve afk on the sidelines(like otovine). At this point what do people want to get nerfed anyways?

Sure High Dps makes falling victim to mechanics more forgiving, but I don't think unoptimized builds are the real fail point or skill check in the meta.

Two things about that. 

7k average during DPS phases still neglects tails and loss towards the end. The number including tails even assuming near perfect response times increases to about 9k. And later DPS phases have a loss of 30%-40% even in groups that end with 5+ minutes to spare. The minimum peak DPS per phase while still succeeding that I have witnessed in real gameplay is ~12.5k. That run had around 30 seconds left.

And secondly. Most people do more like 4k DPS with the map buffs and everything. So by your calculation they can be dead 25% of the fight and still perform to the necessary degree. It barely matters if 10 people die to every slam if their DPS is too low from begin with. The map DPS will barely register a dent. It's like 7%-8% DPS loss despite 20% players having died.

 It is exactly that dynamic that I find questionable about Soo Won. Because the DPS check is above average OW performance. Quite a lot so. Meaning it depends on a few people carrying the map. Or you otherwise stacking the cards in your favor by making sure more people on the map can pass that benchmark. A single raid squad (10 players of ~30k DPS average including map buffs) can probably push any map over the threshold and virtually guarantee success. Regardless of how many players die or fail to do something. So long as the core group splits up well and doesn't fail it's gonna be a success. 

But maps without such groups are doomed from the get go. There is no fix for Soo Won. But that is the problem. The encounter is fundamentally designed to be a visual spectacle that primarily tests DPS.

The meta is fundamentally flawed as a OW meta and I would very much like ANet to never do that again.

Either split content like this off into instances or present the content differently (e.g. give the event a different name than meta event, make access to the map different, leave out all the OW content like fishing, mastery insights, mini dungeon, etc.) or something else. Just distinguish it from regular OW metas. And clearly build it towards a different audience.

Some OW players will enjoy it. It's fine if they get drawn towards it. But if one doesn't enjoy that kind of experience, it should be clear for the future how to avoid similar content. Just like raids. You can enter one, find a group, give it a try, be overwhelmed and then make an informed decision about new wings probably having a similar experience and until you feel ready for it you best avoid it. Or, on the other hand. If you enjoy that kind of tension and feel equipped to deal with it, you can actively seek out to do it more. Make it possible to opt in and to opt out.

Quote

If you make it a lot easier you have 10 people doing the meta while the rest sits halve afk on the sidelines(like otovine).

This seems to be a jaded memory of yours. LFG isn't even necessary and yet 90%+ actively engage with the mechanics around the encounter. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Fueki.4753]

58 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

True, but that would suggest that nobody improved whatsoever which seems a pretty extreme statement to make.

Not everyone likes to actively put a lot of effort (and therefore stress) into their hobbies in order to improve. I'd say it's even the majority of players that do not want such stress, if they could simply relax and recover from the stress they accumulated during work/school hours by doing something different. And these people are blatantly disregarded by this meta.

If disregarding these people was part of Arenanet's design goal for the meta, then it can't be helped. But at least they could tell us so. And if they claim the meta was intended to be doable for everyone, they objectively are lying.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[yoni.7015]

11 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Not everyone likes to actively put a lot of effort (and therefore stress) into their hobbies in order to improve. I'd say it's even the majority of players that do not want such stress, if they could simply relax and recover from the stress they accumulated during work/school hours by doing something different. And these people are blatantly disregarded by this meta.

If disregarding these people was part of Arenanet's design goal for the meta, then it can't be helped. But at least they could tell us so. And if they claim the meta was intended to be doable for everyone, they objectively are lying.

Effort does not automatically mean stress.
With a little bit of organization it is doable for everyone. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by yoni.7015

[yann.1946]

3 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Not everyone likes to actively put a lot of effort (and therefore stress) into their hobbies in order to improve. I'd say it's even the majority of players that do not want such stress, if they could simply relax and recover from the stress they accumulated during work/school hours by doing something different.

You do not need to actively put effort to improve at the game/mechanics of some boss fights to improve. Experience helps with this no matter if people want to or not. 

3 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

And these people are blatantly disregarded by this meta.

That statement is too broad in my opinion.

 That a person just wants to relax and unwind does not mean that they need to automatically succeed to have fun. And this meta is absolutely doable by the majority of the playerbase. 

3 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If disregarding these people was part of Arenanet's design goal for the meta, then it can't be helped. But at least they could tell us so. And if they claim the meta was intended to be doable for everyone, they objectively are lying.

They are not though, it is objectively doable for everyone. I don't think everyone will complete it (to many negative experiences in the first week have ensured that happening) 

But that is a different statement then its doable by everyone. 

[yann.1946]

21 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Two things about that. 

7k average during DPS phases still neglects tails and loss towards the end. The number including tails even assuming near perfect response times increases to about 9k. And later DPS phases have a loss of 30%-40% even in groups that end with 5+ minutes to spare. The minimum peak DPS per phase while still succeeding that I have witnessed in real gameplay is ~12.5k. That run had around 30 seconds left.

And secondly. Most people do more like 4k DPS with the map buffs and everything. So by your calculation they can be dead 25% of the fight and still perform to the necessary degree. It barely matters if 10 people die to every slam if their DPS is too low from begin with. The map DPS will barely register a dent. It's like 7%-8% DPS loss despite 20% players having died.

 It is exactly that dynamic that I find questionable about Soo Won. Because the DPS check is above average OW performance. Quite a lot so. Meaning it depends on a few people carrying the map. Or you otherwise stacking the cards in your favor by making sure more people on the map can pass that benchmark. A single raid squad (10 players of ~30k DPS average including map buffs) can probably push any map over the threshold and virtually guarantee success. Regardless of how many players die or fail to do something. So long as the core group splits up well and doesn't fail it's gonna be a success. 

But maps without such groups are doomed from the get go. There is no fix for Soo Won. But that is the problem. The encounter is fundamentally designed to be a visual spectacle that primarily tests DPS.

The meta is fundamentally flawed as a OW meta and I would very much like ANet to never do that again.

Either split content like this off into instances or present the content differently (e.g. give the event a different name than meta event, make access to the map different, leave out all the OW content like fishing, mastery insights, mini dungeon, etc.) or something else. Just distinguish it from regular OW metas. And clearly build it towards a different audience.

Some OW players will enjoy it. It's fine if they get drawn towards it. But if one doesn't enjoy that kind of experience, it should be clear for the future how to avoid similar content. Just like raids. You can enter one, find a group, give it a try, be overwhelmed and then make an informed decision about new wings probably having a similar experience and until you feel ready for it you best avoid it. Or, on the other hand. If you enjoy that kind of tension and feel equipped to deal with it, you can actively seek out to do it more. Make it possible to opt in and to opt out.

This I agree with, it helps if people know what they are getting into. However It leaves the danger of people missing out on things they might enjoy out of fear associated with the "difficult" thing. 

 

It is a though balance to strike. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by yann.1946

[Gehenna.3625]

10 hours ago, Brimstar.9036 said:

I would incline to agree with that. I honestly don't see or hear it failing really at all anymore. My only suggestion for the OP is to get into more organized runs because there is a ton of people running it now.

The percentage of successful runs might be up indeed. However, what we don't know is how many people are still attempting this meta. 

The point is that if a lot of people that aren't good enough for this either by choice or by disability end up stopping to do this meta (which I think they are), the percentage of successes will go up automatically. However, the content will become more and more niche as the percentage goes up.

Now, I don't know if that's a bad thing. It may not be, but it would mean that this content is enjoyable for an increasingly more limited amount of people.

I do think that Anet was hoping to get more people to raise their skill level and enjoy this type of content, because they started out putting the turtle egg behind it. In fact in EoD they've done a number of things where you have to do group content aka strikes to have access to items that you can only use in OW.  I think I'm mostly confused about Anet's failing attempts of trying to get people involved by putting items behind group content and they persist in doing this. It just feels like they're trying to do the same things over and over again expecting a different result.