Comparing EoD elite specs

[Poelala.2830]

Added mobility: Ranger Engineer Guardian Necromancer Warrior Revenant Thief. 

Traits that enable unblockable skills: Warrior Mesmer 

Classes that gained barrier output through traits: Ranger Warrior 

Classes that saw general improved sustain/defenses: Ranger Engineer Guardian Necromancer Warrior Revenant Thief Mesmer

Classes with mechanics that transform the player's playstyle greatly: Ranger Engineer Guardian Necromancer Warrior Revenant Thief Mesmer

 

For me personally cata just feels like core ele with boons with no added defenses no added mobility no added sustain no added damage and is only run because it finally has stability and quickness... most ele builds rely on conjures to even have any impact, and then it is still very high risk gameplay whereas no other classes really have any high risk gameplay involved... not to mention in terms of sPvP the only things that are viable is dagger focus and hammer. No staff. Offhand dagger is also a throw. No scepter. This chokes build diversity.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Poelala.2830

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, Poelala.2830 said:

Added mobility: Ranger Engineer Guardian Necromancer Warrior Revenant Thief. 

You're gonna make warrior mains laugh themself to death with this sentence. I mean, like you'd bang your head on a wall if someone were to tell you that 3 out of 4 of the hammer skill#4 give mobility to the catalyst or someone arguing that invigorating air is "mobility".

I'd say that you phrased things smartly as it allow to simply ignore the existence of Augments. Well done!

[soulknight.9620]

Oh boy, didnt think that this day woulda actually come, since ive always critisized the direction that ele is going as a class, but i will defend catalyst as a spec in its current state. Catalyst is a fun and powerfull spec to play atm. Damage output is there, it is easily applied, ele gained a source of quickness, some nice passive buffs to dmg/sustain via hammer 3 buffs. And the most important thing that actually made catalyst FUN for me personaly - ALL of hammer attunuments have decent dps skills. Which translates to having access to support/sustain/defence skills in water/earth attunements without loosing any significant dps. That is huge on itself, i really hope they will rethink and rebalance older weapon sets the same way, since many other builds/specs strugle to maintain their dps with having no access to sustain skills (for example attuning to water with sword weaver is a major dps loss). 

The only valid point i can see is catalyst not granting new playstyle to ele, since aside from hammer skills catalyst brings not much of a different gameplay than core ele. But i think that may be the case with comparing it to weaver which was pretty unique by design. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by soulknight.9620

[Poelala.2830]

29 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Oh boy, didnt think that this day woulda actually come, since ive always critisized the direction that ele is going as a class, but i will defend catalyst as a spec in its current state. Catalyst is a fun and powerfull spec to play atm. Damage output is there, it is easily applied, ele gained a source of quickness, some nice passive buffs to dmg/sustain via hammer 3 buffs. And the most important thing that actually made catalyst FUN for me personaly - ALL of hammer attunuments have decent dps skills. Which translates to having access to support/sustain/defence skills in water/earth attunements without loosing any significant dps. That is huge on itself, i really hope they will rethink and rebalance older weapon sets the same way, since many other builds/specs strugle to maintain their dps with having no access to sustain skills (for example attuning to water with sword weaver is a major dps loss). 

The only valid point i can see is catalyst not granting new playstyle to ele, since aside from hammer skills catalyst brings not much of a different gameplay than core ele. But i think that may be the case with comparing it to weaver which was pretty unique by design. 

I never said it wasn’t fun or powerful. I’ve been saying the opposite for a while now. What I did say was it is not transformative, it does not keep up with the mobility creep, and it does not have built in sustain or barrier or defenses from traits. You did not disagree with any of this, but mentioned the elite weapon instead. 

[Poelala.2830]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You're gonna make warrior mains laugh themself to death with this sentence. I mean, like you'd bang your head on a wall if someone were to tell you that 3 out of 4 of the hammer skill#4 give mobility to the catalyst or someone arguing that invigorating air is "mobility".

I'd say that you phrased things smartly as it allow to simply ignore the existence of Augments. Well done!

Gunblade 5, dragon trigger 2 and 5

[Popel.1468]

mommy ... but "xyz" have "this", and I don't ... I want this ...

[Fueki.4753]

You magically wriggled Warrior into every category, yet it still is the worst in terms of both Core professions and elite specializations.

Elementalist is in a better position than our fundamentally disrespected xanthous profession.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

It should pretty obvious from first beta that Catalyst is just Elementalist + additional combo field. Sure you can get high DpS, sure you have some "sustain", but ultimately it is just core on steroids and nothing beyond that...

[Xaylin.1860]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'd say that you phrased things smartly as it allow to simply ignore the existence of Augments. Well done!

Ah... I was wondering myself...

 

Not going to defend Catalyst as a whole but the list is clearly biased. 🙄

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

11 hours ago, Poelala.2830 said:

Gunblade 5, dragon trigger 2 and 5

Cause 300 range flicker step is such strong mobility. Break step isn't much better either. DS-Boost is good though.

[Emberheart.8426]

Soon you will have people claiming that flame uprising is mobility. Just because a skill moves you, doesn't mean it's extra mobility. Sometimes it might even reduce your mobility.

[crosknight.3041]

imo the main issue with catalyst feeling like ele2.0 instead of something different like tempest or weaver is the lack of impact the traits the utility and sphere have.
the sphere is just an overglorified boon well that cant keep pace with all the other wells that the other professions have.
the traits are aura based as well as mediocre stat increases (the jade sphere line is mostly fine, some touch up would be nice though), i will die on the hill to say they really should have made the spec traits focus on effecting combo finishers.
augment utility skills feel like a 2nd set of stances, and requiring them to be withing a specific sphere for full effect adds an unnecessary layer of complexity that ele already has to much of when compared to most of the other professions.

[pninak.1069]

I agree with others that cata is fine. I don't consider it core+, because you need to gather energy before you can use the spheres. It is also overlooked that it benefits a lot from different effects of auras which can give it a very high dmg reduction. That's why cata seems to be the most balanced specs out of the e-specs for ele we have. regarding augments I don't mind having to meet requirements. I wish more skills would have them. in gw1 days there were a couple of skills that had no effect if certain conditions weren't met e.g. target needs to be affected by a watermagic hex. But what's also intersting to note is that even if the spec is considered one of the more complex ones it doesn't change that it is just a matter of the way you press keys. So overall complexity can be broken down to easy to learn combos you get used to.

[vardeleanu.8972]

On 5/30/2022 at 11:12 AM, Poelala.2830 said:

Classes that gained barrier output through traits: Ranger Warrior 

 thief should be here 

[solemn.9608]

On 5/30/2022 at 7:15 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

You're gonna make warrior mains laugh themself to death with this sentence. I mean, like you'd bang your head on a wall if someone were to tell you that 3 out of 4 of the hammer skill#4 give mobility to the catalyst or someone arguing that invigorating air is "mobility".

I'd say that you phrased things smartly as it allow to simply ignore the existence of Augments. Well done!

You mean 2/4, where did you get 3 from lol, and one (air) is not exactly reliable or very effective. Augments are mostly not worth using except earth, which is just a slightly more usable earth shield 5, and the heal which is just a slightly different Ether Renewal. All the other augments do things we already had before but worse. Run any of the others in WvW roaming over the core defensive utilities and see how quickly you're taken advantage of.

 

I'm not necessarily agreeing 100% with op, just saying your somewhat snarky post actually comes off as somewhat ignorant.

[Dadnir.5038]

9 minutes ago, solemn.9608 said:

You mean 2/4, where did you get 3 from lol, and one (air) is not exactly reliable or very effective. Augments are mostly not worth using except earth, which is just a slightly more usable earth shield 5, and the heal which is just a slightly different Ether Renewal. All the other augments do things we already had before but worse. Run any of the others in WvW roaming over the core defensive utilities and see how quickly you're taken advantage of.

 

I'm not necessarily agreeing 100% with op, just saying your somewhat snarky post actually comes off as somewhat ignorant.

I see that you just don't get the message of the "snarky post" and that you fall easily to the bait with your "come off as somewhat ignorant".

[Poelala.2830]

4 hours ago, solemn.9608 said:

You mean 2/4, where did you get 3 from lol, and one (air) is not exactly reliable or very effective. Augments are mostly not worth using except earth, which is just a slightly more usable earth shield 5, and the heal which is just a slightly different Ether Renewal. All the other augments do things we already had before but worse. Run any of the others in WvW roaming over the core defensive utilities and see how quickly you're taken advantage of.

 

I'm not necessarily agreeing 100% with op, just saying your somewhat snarky post actually comes off as somewhat ignorant.

Its 1/4. Without quickness you traverse more distance in the buildup to air 4 by walking than by using the skill. 

[Poelala.2830]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I see that you just don't get the message of the "snarky post" and that you fall easily to the bait with your "come off as somewhat ignorant".

Literally nothing you have said in this post made any sense yet.

[fuzzyp.6295]

12 hours ago, solemn.9608 said:

You mean 2/4, where did you get 3 from lol, and one (air) is not exactly reliable or very effective. Augments are mostly not worth using except earth, which is just a slightly more usable earth shield 5, and the heal which is just a slightly different Ether Renewal. All the other augments do things we already had before but worse. Run any of the others in WvW roaming over the core defensive utilities and see how quickly you're taken advantage of.

 

I'm not necessarily agreeing 100% with op, just saying your somewhat snarky post actually comes off as somewhat ignorant.

TBH, I've had great success using Invigorating Air on my hammer build. The Superspeed works both to escape when needing the stun-break and get some distance from emeies as well as a means to pursue enemies that are fleeing, adding some much needed mobility for Catalyst. And the endurance regen from the skill basically allows for another dodge with is always welcomed with Evasive Arcana. Throw in the reduced cool down if you use it when Air field is up and idk I think its pretty good and a nice side-grade to Signet of Air.

Also... I really enjoy playing Shattering Ice in my scepter builds. Helps keep energy management, some okay extra damage and the chill really messes with peoples heads when you apply it with the scepter auto in air haha really fun. But so far this agument is really only for decent in 1v1s.

Relentless Fire I haven't found a good way to use in roaming though, if I wanted hyper aggressive damage I'd just use Sc/D Weaver. Basically the best move on Scepter is already unblockable anyway so.

Also, I assume you forgot to mention the elite augment which is fantastic. And that augment can turn your mobility from 2 to 3 with a double leap or a double wind storm. (among the other options of course)

Augments aren't all bad honestly. But they're not necessarily better than or different from the core skills, which is why a lot of players think they're bad. And that's is a valid point, I would much rather have something new and interesting than side-grades to core skills.

Edited June 3, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[soulknight.9620]

2 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

Augments aren't all bad honestly. But they're not necessarily better than or different from the core skills, which is why a lot of players think they're bad. And that's is a valid point, I would much rather have something new and interesting than side-grades to core skills.

Some of them sure. Fire one is just a flat 10% dmg with unblock for 5-8 secs, cmon thats not that much for a utility slot. The only saving grace it has is fast cast time so that it is used in burst builds and on golems in pve.  Ice one is great for energy generation with additional hit. Earth one is a good save skill. The healing one is just a straight upgraded version of arcane heal since u can use it and not be stuck in chanelling. The ult is somewhat situational. It was good on something like MS spam, but imo not worth it to use it to recast a skill with 5-20 sec cd. 

Dont get me wrong augments have their uses, but they are very situational and arent quite unique. The only reason augments do not seem to be bad is that 90% of ele utility skills are trash beyond use. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by soulknight.9620

[fuzzyp.6295]

1 hour ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Some of them sure. Fire one is just a flat 10% dmg with unblock for 5-8 secs, cmon thats not that much for a utility slot. The only saving grace it has is fast cast time so that it is used in burst builds and on golems in pve.  Ice one is great for energy generation with additional hit. Earth one is a good save skill. The healing one is just a straight upgraded version of arcane heal since u can use it and not be stuck in chanelling. The ult is somewhat situational. It was good on something like MS spam, but imo not worth it to use it to recast a skill with 5-20 sec cd. 

Dont get me wrong augments have their uses, but they are very situational and arent quite unique. The only reason augments do not seem to be bad is that 90% of ele utility skills are trash beyond use. 

Well that basically what I said above isn't it? That they aren't bad, but people view them as bad because they don't feel  unique enough. Air and Earth are now staples of mine when roaming in WvW, I can't imagine roaming anymore without em. Ice can be fun but situational. Heal is also great if I need the cleanse even though I still think Signet is better overall. And people are seriously sleeping on the elite if they only think its useful for Meteor Shower spam, there is way more utility in it than that.

Augments are good but one of the most common complaints about Catalyst holds true: It just feels like they are updated version of Core Elemenetalist abilities.

Still hoping one day we'll get a utility that is a decent pull, reveal or even, dare I hope for maybe some boon strip?

No, that's going too far, obviously... phew, got a little crazy there with my demands.

Edited June 3, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[soulknight.9620]

1 hour ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

dare I hope for maybe some boon strip?

Anet: "We heard you loud and clear and decided to strip all boons from elementalist traits and skills. Now elementalist players wont have to deal with boons as a mechanic. We are keeping an eye on more feedback from you." 

[Tycura.1982]

I love cata

[draxynnic.3719]

On 5/30/2022 at 10:20 PM, Poelala.2830 said:

Gunblade 5, dragon trigger 2 and 5

That's like saying deadeye rifle is a mobility set because it has a teleport, despite the entire playstyle being based on remaining stationary for an extended period.

Bladesworn is basically melee rifle deadeye. The mobility skills on Dragon Trigger are there to make it so that an action that requires you to be otherwise immobile for several seconds actually has a chance of working. Similarly, the leap forward on gunblade is taking the place of another weapon - greatsword (which seems to be the weapon that is being ditched for gunblade if you compare warrior power builds) brings more mobility overall.

All things considered, bladesworn is a significant decrease in mobility compared to other warriors.

Your core argument that catalyst doesn't really bring a new way of playing ele outside of the hammer itself is sound - but "bladesworn adds mobility" is not a good hill to die on.

I'd raise eyebrows at thief and rev as well. Spectre has the well teleports, to be sure, but that mostly just compensates for losing initiative: daredevil is definitely the mobility spec for thief. As for rev... technically alliance stance has some, to be fair, but Shiro is really still doing the heavy lifting when it comes to mobility builds on rev. I guess it does mean condi revs are a bit more agile than people are used to them being?

[Poelala.2830]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That's like saying deadeye rifle is a mobility set because it has a teleport, despite the entire playstyle being based on remaining stationary for an extended period.

Bladesworn is basically melee rifle deadeye. The mobility skills on Dragon Trigger are there to make it so that an action that requires you to be otherwise immobile for several seconds actually has a chance of working. Similarly, the leap forward on gunblade is taking the place of another weapon - greatsword (which seems to be the weapon that is being ditched for gunblade if you compare warrior power builds) brings more mobility overall.

All things considered, bladesworn is a significant decrease in mobility compared to other warriors.

Your core argument that catalyst doesn't really bring a new way of playing ele outside of the hammer itself is sound - but "bladesworn adds mobility" is not a good hill to die on.

I'd raise eyebrows at thief and rev as well. Spectre has the well teleports, to be sure, but that mostly just compensates for losing initiative: daredevil is definitely the mobility spec for thief. As for rev... technically alliance stance has some, to be fair, but Shiro is really still doing the heavy lifting when it comes to mobility builds on rev. I guess it does mean condi revs are a bit more agile than people are used to them being?

The point is there are mobility options added to the classes not the classes are more mobile because these options. Ele has 1 skill in the entire spec weapon of 24 skills, 5 utility skills, and all the traits that add mobility and it’s still less than you’d see with any weapon except scepter which is long range