Would you be ok with an in-game DPS-meter if it only showed your own numbers?

[Silent.6137]

9 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Have you read the terms of service?

I have as a matter of fact although it was very cursory whenever I sign up or use anything.

Note the section on Termination and Sanctions: 1.7.3 Violations. Why do you think they need that if they can just do whatever they like with no consequences?

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Ashen.2907]

27 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

Your analogy is kinda way out there. The data is not on public display. Your actions are.

Let me give you an analogy. You are speeding. Everyone can see you're speeding. They can even estimate your speed but they have no firm data on how fast. They can use a radar to determine your exact speed. That's what a DPS meter is akin to; a radar.

And how do you propose preventing others from using it even if you specify it as such?

It's the game's data but it is also yours. It came from your actions. There are players who would rather strangers cannot just see how they perform or what they do. Within the game, the data is all yours. It belongs to you.

An analogy will be Anet is the owner of a building. You rented an apartment from it. That apartment is your home. Until you terminate the rental agreement or is evicted, no one else can enter without your permission. That is the very essence of privacy, and the rights to it.

If the data was not on public display ArcDPS wouldnt function. As to your apartment analogy, if you play music in your home, windows open or just loud enough to be heard on the street, you have no right to insist that people on the street not know your musical taste, a piece of data about you.

For that matter, even on your own property you have no right to privacy as regards to anything visible from off your property. If someone sees you doing something in your yard you do not have any form of right to insist that their knowledge of what they saw be eliminated.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Nice if it can be toggled on or off. It will be wasting screen space in most situations but can be very nice to have if you want to benchmark yourself.

I'm against it being public because it may lead to unwanted behavior of some players in cooperative missions.

[Silent.6137]

3 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

If the data was not on public display ArcDPS wouldnt function. As to your apartment analogy, if you play music in your home, windows open or just loud enough to be heard on the street, you have no right to insist that people on the street not know your musical taste, a piece of data about you.

For that matter, even on your own property you have no right to privacy as regards to anything visible from off your property. If someone sees you doing something in your yard you do not have any form of right to insist that their knowledge of what they saw be eliminated.

The data is NOT on public display. If it is, you will not need ArcDPS. It will be visible without it.

Again your analogy usage is way out in left field. You're equating visble and recognizable actions with something that's not apparent.

[Ashen.2907]

12 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

The data is NOT on public display. If it is, you will not need ArcDPS. It will be visible without it.

Again your analogy usage is way out in left field. You're equating visble and recognizable actions with something that's not apparent.

It is visible without it, it just parses too quickly and incrementally to be easily calculated. ArcDPS is a calculator.

How do you think ArcDPS gets its info? I dont have it, I have never shared my API or anything else about my account with anyone else. ANet does not allow 3rd party software that accessses or modifies account info (which is why other dps meters have been banned). So, if not by accessing ANet's data, not by accessing player account data, not by accessing API, not by modifying account or game data, not by hacking.....how do you think Arc gets my DPS?

Edited June 7, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

And how do you propose preventing others from using it even if you specify it as such?

That would suggest that there's a need for that in the first place, but I don't see any. Nobody is out there to get you, nobody is joining "everyone welcome", training or similar groups in an effort to spy on you or your dps. Play in the groups you want to play with, it's equally true now as it would be -according to the person I was responding here- after that change.

Quote

It's the game's data but it is also yours. It came from your actions. There are players who would rather strangers cannot just see how they perform or what they do. Within the game, the data is all yours. It belongs to you.

lol what. No, it doesn't. Stop making up these things. Anet already discussed it and said that if there will be a change needed in regards to privacy then there will be one, but for now there wasn't since it doesn't work like you're suggesting it works.

Quote

An analogy will be Anet is the owner of a building. You rented an apartment from it. That apartment is your home. Until you terminate the rental agreement or is evicted, no one else can enter without your permission. That is the very essence of privacy, and the rights to it.

Terrible analogy that has nothing to do with this situation. Again, stop making these things up because you hope that's how it works. You can't agree to play with others (which you're doing by playing with others) and try to tell them they have to close their eyes, because you don't want them to see your actions... since they're yours and they'd be breaching your privacy otherwise.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[kharmin.7683]

36 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

I have as a matter of fact although it was very cursory whenever I sign up or use anything.

Note the section on Termination and Sanctions: 1.7.3 Violations. Why do you think they need that if they can just do whatever they like with no consequences?

 

That doesn't really address the point.  Section 2.2.2 does, though.  We users have pretty much zero rights.

 

[Sobx.1758]

On 6/7/2022 at 9:45 PM, Nidome.1365 said:

You give Anet the right to do what they want with the game data when you sign up for the game, you do not however give 3rd parties permission to your data. If a 3rd party is accessing someone's data without their permission then that could be a breach of data law depending upon what country they are in.

Again, as it was already written, you're not accessing "someone elses" data, you're simply sorting and presenting the ingame data. Not yours. Not someone elses. The game's. You can pretend it is some kind of privacy breach issue, but it just isn't. Not only that, but as it was already repeated mutliple times, the players caring about high/meta/call-it-how-you-want performance don't have a reason to look for it in any kind of "everyone welcome" groups. If any player reaching high performance joins any of those groups, they know what they're doing and they don't care about people underperforming since they're expecting it. You can be scared of the boogeyman all you want, but if that boogeyman exists, it's avoiding you anyways.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758
players -> player

[mindcircus.1506]

31 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

The data is NOT on public display.

It very much is on display already to any member of your squad/group.
If it weren't ARC would not work.

[mindcircus.1506]

53 minutes ago, Nidome.1365 said:

You give Anet the right to do what they want with the game data when you sign up for the game, you do not however give 3rd parties permission to your data. If a 3rd party is accessing someone's data without their permission then that could be a breach of data law depending upon what country they are in.

The damage data for everyone in the group/squad is already kept client side by all participants.
The third party tool (in this case ARCdps) is only showing you data that you already have. All it does it display it in a readable format.

But 10/10 forum legalese....ggwp.

[Silent.6137]

19 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

It is visible without it, it just parses too quickly and incrementally to be easily calculated. ArcDPS is a calculator.

How do you think ArcDPS gets its info? I dont have it, I have never shared my API or anything else about my account with anyone else. ANet does not allow 3rd party software that accessses or modifies account info (which is why other dps meters have been banned). So, if not by accessing ANet's data, not by accessing player account data, not by accessing API, not by modifying account or game data, not by hacking.....how do you think Arc gets my DPS?

First of all, I'm not against ArcDPS. I use it myself!!! If you need a tool to access and collate the data, then it's not publicly visible. I never did say what ArcDPS does is against Anet's policy. If it is, I would not be using it.

10 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

That would suggest that there's a need for that in the first place, but I don't see any. Nobody is out there to get you, nobody is joining "everyone welcome", training or similar groups in an effort to spy on you or your dps. Play in the groups you want to play with, it's equally true now as it would be -according to the person I was responding here- after that change.

lol what. No, it doesn't. Stop making up these things. Anet already discussed it and said that if there will be a change needed in regards to privacy then there will be one, but for now there wasn't since it doesn't work like you're suggesting it works.

Terrible analogy that has nothing to do with this situation. Again, stop making these things up because you hope that's how it works.

No one is out to get me. Again I use ARCDPS!!! What exactly am I making up? Are you saying that the actions are not mine? That the data collected do not arise as a result of my actions?

8 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

That doesn't really address the point.  Section 2.2.2 does, though.  We users have pretty much zero rights.

 

Section 2.2.2 deals with the visual image, and contents' ownership. Not with your rights regarding your account.

[Sobx.1758]

9 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

No one is out to get me.

Did you read the posts in the comment chain you answered to or just skipped to the last post you've responded to? Because that part is directly related to the context of this whole comment chain where someone started that complaint about being spied on, breach of their privacy and whatnot.

Quote

Again I use ARCDPS!!!

Fail to see relevance to anything I said? Have I said anything about you using or not using it? I really don't understand how this is supposed to change anything here -if I'm missing something obvious, please explain.

Quote

What exactly am I making up?

More or less everything about the privacy you've said in your previous posts.

Quote

Are you saying that the actions are not mine?

Never said they're not "your actions", it's just that by looking at them and making them easier to read/interpret (which is still related to the game data, not your data) nobody is breaking anything here as opposed to what you're suggesting in your posts.

Quote

That the data collected do not arise as a result of my actions?

It's irrelevant that they are a result of your actions. What's relevant is that nobody is breaching your privacy by reading/presenting game's data.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Ashen.2907]

6 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

First of all, I'm not against ArcDPS. I use it myself!!! If you need a tool to access and collate the data, then it's not publicly visible. I never did say what ArcDPS does is against Anet's policy. If it is, I would not be using it.

No one is out to get me. Again I use ARCDPS!!! What exactly am I making up? Are you saying that the actions are not mine? That the data collected do not arise as a result of my actions?

Section 2.2.2 deals with the visual image, and contents' ownership. Not with your rights regarding your account.

I didnt say you were against Arc, I asked how you thought it was able to determine my DPS if the information was not publicly visible. 

Someone can shout calculus equations as fast as humanly possible in a public square and I would need pen and paper, and probably a calculator, ( and most likely a calculus refresher course) to solve them. This does not change the fact that the information was publicly available.

Remember that just because you, or I, cannot comprehend the data easily without a tool does not mean that the data is not on public display.

 

I dont use Arc, although I do occasionally ask a guildie in a strike what my dps was so I can compare rotation execution on a target dummy vs a real boss.

[Silent.6137]

46 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Did you read the posts in the comment chain you answered to or just skipped to the last post you've responded to? Because that part is directly related to the context of this whole comment chain where someone started that complaint about being spied on, breach of their privacy and whatnot.

Yes, I did read all of it. But why quote me and answer as if I said I was spied on? Comment on what I say, not what the chain started out as.

46 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

 

Fail to see relevance to anything I said? Have I said anything about you using or not using it? I really don't understand how this is supposed to change anything here -if I'm missing something obvious, please explain.

More or less everything about the privacy you've said in your previous posts.

Never said they're not "your actions", it's just that by looking at them and making them easier to read/interpret (which is still related to the game data, not your data) nobody is breaking anything here as opposed to what you're suggesting in your posts.

It's irrelevant that they are a result of your actions. What's relevant is that nobody is breaching your privacy by reading/presenting game's data.

So, in other words, if someone's perspective is different from yours, then they are making things up? Game data, not my data. Really?

Let me simplify this. I use ArcDPS and show you the game log. Yes, it is game data. But whose game data are you looking at?

Edited June 7, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Sobx.1758]

12 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

Yes, I did read all of it. But why quote me and answer as if I said I was spied on? Comment on what I say, not what the chain started out as.

I mean... I also did, this was a single small sentence, not everything I wrote?

Quote

So, in other words, if someone's perspective is different from yours, then they are making things up?

No, in other words you're presenting it as something it isn't. Because reading and presenting game's data doesn't breach your privacy in any way. Nor do you own it in any way just because it's somehow related to your actions.

Quote

Game data, not my data. Really? Yes, the game owns the data.

Yes, really. So why pretend you (as in any player in particular) do and dps meters breach anything? Because that is what you (and the other person) keep saying, right?

Quote

But  what you are saying is the very narrow definition of ownership, not what data actually is.

?

Explain, but hopefully in direct relation to this thread/dps meters/what you've previously tried to use as an argument.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Silent.6137]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

?

I edited before your reply. But Ok. Retiring from this thread.

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

I edited before your reply. But Ok. Retiring from this thread.

Ok, so this is the edit:

17 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

Let me simplify this. I use ArcDPS and show you the game log. Yes, it is game data. But whose game data are you looking at?

Whose data? Anet's. Not yours or anyone else. That what "game's data" means this whole time and as far as I understood it, you've agreed with it being correct (this part of your post specifically: "Game data, not my data. Really? Yes, the game owns the data." ) before editing it out.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[kharmin.7683]

13 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Section 2.2.2 deals with the visual image, and contents' ownership. Not with your rights regarding your account.

It deals with any content, not just visual image.

[Tails.9372]

I'm not against it but it would need to be comprehensive to be useful.

On 6/6/2022 at 2:39 PM, Gehenna.3625 said:

I think that if they could monetize this, they'd already done it years ago.

I don't think so. Take the ring and accessory slots for example, they could have just added them as a subsection to the wardrobe for various visual effects which in turn would be easily monetizable but they didn't.

[Jimbru.6014]

While having our own DPS meter instead of having to rely on an addon would be nice, I question if adding another load to an already spotty interface is a good idea. Either way, I've never been a fan of players being able to see other players' data, so if ArenaNet can give us something functional and private and make ArcDPS and other intruders go away, that'd be great.

[Borked.6824]

On 6/6/2022 at 11:03 AM, Khisanth.2948 said:

No because DPS numbers in a vacuum are nearly useless and potentially harmful.

Without facts people just make stuff up. This was already proven back before arc existed. Sticking your head in the sand will not make those types of people go away.

Only seeing your own numbers will give misleading ideas. "Wow this build is awesome! It does 2000 DPS, the previous one only did 1000 ...". Relatively speaking sure but in the full spectrum it is not. Other than timed content a 2000 DPS build still "works" it just ends up taking a lot more effort. A 1 million HP enemy with 9m limit requires less than 2000 DPS.

I would argue the value of comparing dps is irrelevant, making vaccum dps meters the opposite of useless, at the benefit of being less socially harmful.  Relatively, the only factor for determing overall dps is personal dps anyway.  If you're not killing bosses fast enough, just assume you're part of the problem, check your Anet sanctioned and designed meters, and get better.  When you're not progressing anymore beyond fractions of a percent, you know you're not the problem.

[DexterousGecko.6328]

If the enemy dies before I do, and I didn't feel like it took too long, that's all I care about. dps meters are used by people wanting to do harder content, and almost always used as a metric for "are you ready for 'x' content" and are used to compare to other players.

[Khisanth.2948]

16 minutes ago, Borked.6824 said:

I would argue the value of comparing dps is irrelevant, making vaccum dps meters the opposite of useless, at the benefit of being less socially harmful.  Relatively, the only factor for determing overall dps is personal dps anyway.  If you're not killing bosses fast enough, just assume you're part of the problem, check your Anet sanctioned and designed meters, and get better.  When you're not progressing anymore beyond fractions of a percent, you know you're not the problem.

Then a DPS meter isn't needed at all. Just look at the in game clock when you start. Anything that completes an encounter is technically fast enough so even that much isn't really necessary.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Khisanth.2948

[Bakeneko.5826]

23 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

I never did say what ArcDPS does is against Anet's policy. If it is, I would not be using it.

It actually is, but Anet chooses to ignore it. There is section about 3rd party software being forbidden. Anet said before - we don't care about your DPS meter, but it MIGHT trigger a ban. And ArcDPS creator also stated - if Anet wanted, they could catch everyone using Arc, or patch game in such a way Arc wouldn't work. So, yes - it kinda is against TOS, but Anet has given "Meh" light about it.

23 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

That the data collected do not arise as a result of my actions?

Data comes from your action, but all data belongs to Anet, because software belongs to Anet, you just buy access to software. Nothing inside of it belongs to you. It's like saying you own MS Office, because you created .docx file with it.

23 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Not with your rights regarding your account

You don't have any rights to your account, all rights belong to Anet. Anet just let's you use their software because you gave money to Anet.

23 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Game data, not my data. Really?

Quite literally - yes. 0 of that code belongs to you. Code generates data, not you. You just press button for your money brain to get a dopamine shot - that's it.

23 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

But whose game data are you looking at?

ANETS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Game BELONGS to ANET!!!! You have no right TO THE GAME!!!!! When you clicked Agree on TOS, you agreed that you are renting software for unlimited time and agree, that Anet can terminate said agreement at any time, one sided. You did this for every DLC and gem purchase when using real money. ANET - OWNS - GUILD WARS - AND - ALL - ITS - DATA! YOU - OWN - NOTHING!

[Silent.6137]

I didn't want to get back into this debate because another forumers split apart sentences by sentences in a paragraph of my replies so the meaning is totally out-of-context. But will try to address what you had quoted me.

37 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

It actually is, but Anet chooses to ignore it. There is section about 3rd party software being forbidden. Anet said before - we don't care about your DPS meter, but it MIGHT trigger a ban. And ArcDPS creator also stated - if Anet wanted, they could catch everyone using Arc, or patch game in such a way Arc wouldn't work. So, yes - it kinda is against TOS, but Anet has given "Meh" light about it.

This link should address it: Policy: Third-Party Programs Not forbidden if they do not violate the terms of agreements.

37 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Data comes from your action, but all data belongs to Anet, because software belongs to Anet, you just buy access to software. Nothing inside of it belongs to you. It's like saying you own MS Office, because you created .docx file with it.

You don't have any rights to your account, all rights belong to Anet. Anet just let's you use their software because you gave money to Anet.

Quite literally - yes. 0 of that code belongs to you. Code generates data, not you. You just press button for your money brain to get a dopamine shot - that's it.

ANETS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Game BELONGS to ANET!!!! You have no right TO THE GAME!!!!! When you clicked Agree on TOS, you agreed that you are renting software for unlimited time and agree, that Anet can terminate said agreement at any time, one sided. You did this for every DLC and gem purchase when using real money. ANET - OWNS - GUILD WARS - AND - ALL - ITS - DATA! YOU - OWN - NOTHING!

Both you and the other guy are alluding to something that I do not mean. My data, not ownership but as it pertains to what I do. In the smilar vein as when you say "your legendary greatsword, Exordium". Yes, it is yours within the game context. Yes, Anet owns the game. I'm not disputing that and ultimately Anet, owns that Exordium you're holding.

I truly do not understand why it is so difficult to grasp that. 

EDIT: Someone can't grasp the concept (by quoting me again) so I'll try and add this explanation. We look at ArcDPS log. "Let's look at Player A's data. Next, let's look at Player B's data". We are not implying ownership, but implying which player's dataset it is.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Silent.6137