Why do Mesmer Mantras exist?

[Nyel.1843]

Title.

 

I remember a time when Mantras for Mesmers had a playstyle attached to them. Now they feel like relics of the past. And why are there basically no traits to support a Mantra-based playstyle?

Can anyone tell me what the point of them is? Is any build using Mantras? 

 

I'm so confused, I always loved to chant Mantras as I really liked the phrases they attached to them - it got removed? Now you just activate them and be done with it? Fire and forget? So boring. Can someone enlighten me?

[lysico.1297]

I use the condi clear 2 charge mantra all the time for pvp.  Group condi clear. Thank you

[draxynnic.3719]

They were a casualty of ArenaNet deciding that people preferred not to charge them. Before then, they'd shifted a fair amount of their "power budget" onto the effect that triggers when they're charged, with the individual charges being relatively weak. Then they removed the charging mechanic, but didn't buff the individual charges to compensate.

 

So the condi clear one might see a bit of use still because mesmer doesn't have much in the way of better options unless you take Inspiration. I see Mantra of Pain being used occasionally to set up spikes. But yeah, mesmer mantras really do need a significant readjustment upwards. Compare Mantra of Concentration to basically any other group stability skill. 10% base uptime. Yay. Stand Your Ground gets 20%, and Resolution.

[viquing.8254]

Mesmer mantras were the PoC for FB mantras.

Joke aside, I miss the old 400 toughness during mantra cast 😛

 

But yeah with no cast time they lose all their base gameplay and today they are no more than another amno skills.

[Jtoon.6907]

I use the heal mantra, stability mantra, and condi clear mantra on my Mirage in WVW. I occasionally use the stability mantra for zergs in WVW on my chrono. 

[Mik.3401]

They are situational nothing else at this point. Have some use in pvp theorycrafting too but not an awful lot. They are just there because gw1 Mesmer had mantras

Edited June 7, 2022 by Mik.3401

[draxynnic.3719]

4 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

They are situational nothing else at this point. Have some use in pvp theorycrafting too but not an awful lot. They are just there because gw1 Mesmer had mantras

Oh, they were good once. Balancing since has not been kind to them, though, and most of the nerfs have been more "the team didn't consider the effect this change would have" rather than deliberate nerfs to address an overperforming skill. (Although there were a few of the latter, these usually did just bring them back into balance, it was the nerfs that happened as a result of oversights that really killed them.)

[Salt Mode.3780]

Like glamour, mantras will no longer have traits related to them simple as that. 

Mesmers always get the short end of the stick get use to it.

[Nyel.1843]

2 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Like glamour, mantras will no longer have traits related to them simple as that. 

Mesmers always get the short end of the stick get use to it.

 

Yeah but why? I remember there were several traits supporting Mantras and they've just been removed? What's the point? I always dreamt of a Mantra build, even with an elite Mantra and yet they absolutely gutted them to this awful kind of skill type. Why oh why. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

11 minutes ago, Nyel.1843 said:

 

Yeah but why? I remember there were several traits supporting Mantras and they've just been removed? What's the point? I always dreamt of a Mantra build, even with an elite Mantra and yet they absolutely gutted them to this awful kind of skill type. Why oh why. 

I dunno go ask if other classes have skills that does not have traits. Seems to me people think Mesmer is completely fine.

[anbujackson.9564]

2 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I dunno go ask if other classes have skills that does not have traits. Seems to me people think Mesmer is completely fine.

Yes there are, spellbreaker for example. Who even runs any utility from spb except the bubble?

About the Mantras.. Its just as sad as the loss on firebrand. With the exception that firebrand profits from the change and mesmer doesnt. In PvE i see some use of the dmg and stability mantra.

[Salt Mode.3780]

4 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Yes there are, spellbreaker for example. Who even runs any utility from spb except the bubble?

About the Mantras.. Its just as sad as the loss on firebrand. With the exception that firebrand profits from the change and mesmer doesnt. In PvE i see some use of the dmg and stability mantra.

Mantra is never used in PvE for Mesmers esp not in raid. Whether or not SPB runs utilities or not does not mean that their skills do not have traits that affect them. 

Please understand my post before quoting, utilities that have no relation to traits. Mesmer has 3 so far, Glamour, Mantra, and Psionic (Virtuoso tooltip). None which have traits that directly affect them.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

Mantras used to be ok but now they just a ghost of former self because players complain so much about Mesmers to it gets nerf at every patch.

Its had rework done and the most significant nerf was that you need to be facing opponent to cast.

But hey shooting nades and mortar while running the other way is fine but its a big no no if Mesmers have a skill that can do that.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Still use the condi clear mantra.

MoD is good in certain builds or if you don't know how to shatter and want an easy mode. MoP is nice if you want extra damage on instagib. 

The other two are kind of meh. 

Never used traited mantras when there was still a trait tho. 

[Nyel.1843]

Maybe I should have worded my thread a bit different. I am just disappointed that I cannot support a Mantra-playstyle with traits and they just exist.

[Hotride.2187]

21 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

They were a casualty of ArenaNet deciding that people preferred not to charge them. Before then, they'd shifted a fair amount of their "power budget" onto the effect that triggers when they're charged, with the individual charges being relatively weak. Then they removed the charging mechanic, but didn't buff the individual charges to compensate.

Similar to what happened with fb mantras, but they are strong even without the final charge and so are still used.

There used to be gameplay attached to them, gauge when you need the powerful final charge, save it until then. But someone decided its too hard to press 2-3 buttons at the start of an instance/after dying. Cool animations and sound effects also got scrapped along the way...

Edited June 8, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Similar to what happened with fb mantras, but they are strong even without the final charge and so are still used.

There used to be gameplay attached to them, gauge when you need the powerful final charge, save it until then. But someone decided its too hard to press 2-3 buttons at the start of an instance/after dying. Cool animations and sound effects also got scrapped along the way...

Well, yeah. That's part of the problem, in fact. Firebrand mantras were designed on the principle that you generally didn't want to use the final charge, but if you did, it'd be more powerful to make up for the fact that you wouldn't even have the choice to channel it for an extended period of time. Mesmer mantras, on the other hand, were meant to be used up and channelled regularly, with long count recharges since you were supposed to skip the count recharge by using them up and then channelling again to recharge them that way.

So the change had the effect of benefiting firebrand mantras (since you no longer had to be afraid of using your final charge) while ruining mesmer mantras. Under the current design, mesmer mantras really need to get a third charge (since in the previous design, the channelling process was effectively the equivalent of firebrand's final charge effect) and to have the count recharge substantially shortened. Even then, they possibly need to have the effect per charge strengthened a little as well.

I will acknowledge that having to channel multiple mantras regularly was annoying. But they really needed to consider the effect of the blanket change on mesmer mantras when they implemented it.

Edited June 8, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[apharma.3741]

On 6/7/2022 at 1:59 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

They were a casualty of ArenaNet deciding that people preferred not to charge them. Before then, they'd shifted a fair amount of their "power budget" onto the effect that triggers when they're charged, with the individual charges being relatively weak. Then they removed the charging mechanic, but didn't buff the individual charges to compensate.

 

So the condi clear one might see a bit of use still because mesmer doesn't have much in the way of better options unless you take Inspiration. I see Mantra of Pain being used occasionally to set up spikes. But yeah, mesmer mantras really do need a significant readjustment upwards. Compare Mantra of Concentration to basically any other group stability skill. 10% base uptime. Yay. Stand Your Ground gets 20%, and Resolution.

Yeah exactly.

Thing is the daze mantra gets complained about even on a 24s count recharge. That's kinda crazy for a skill that is instant cast small AoE daze.
In my opinon they need to redo Mantra of Distraction, Mantra of Pain and Mantra of Recovery, they're either dumb or bad, sometimes both.
Then the count recharge of Concentration and Resolve needs to go down. I don't think they need to be 3 counts as it offers a lot of front loading of effects but 24s for a small AoE 3 condition cleanse is a bit silly, Concentration is just flat out dumb to have at 45s.

[Senqu.8054]

1. Empowering mantras (% damage for each mantra) deleted
2. Harmonious Mantras (3 times activation) deleted
3. Mantra Mastery (reduce recharge on mantras) deleted
4. Protective Mantras (toughness while preparing mantras) deleted

5. Mantra preparation deleted

6. Restorative mantra: 50% nerf

Edited June 8, 2022 by Senqu.8054

[Nyel.1843]

1 hour ago, Senqu.8054 said:

1. Empowering mantras (% damage for each mantra) deleted
2. Harmonious Mantras (3 times activation) deleted
3. Mantra Mastery (reduce recharge on mantras) deleted
4. Protective Mantras (toughness while preparing mantras) deleted

5. Mantra preparation deleted

6. Restorative mantra: 50% nerf

 

This makes me sad.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Guess I'm going to be that guy, and say that when I was raiding I used either mostly or full mantras for several fights.  Group stability, group cleanse, daze, and heals on use make mantras good for minstrel chronos.  

[Dadnir.5038]

17 hours ago, Senqu.8054 said:

1. Empowering mantras (% damage for each mantra) deleted
2. Harmonious Mantras (3 times activation) deleted
3. Mantra Mastery (reduce recharge on mantras) deleted
4. Protective Mantras (toughness while preparing mantras) deleted

5. Mantra preparation deleted

6. Restorative mantra: 50% nerf

That's because at some point the sPvP community was saying that FB mantra were to strong so they had to do something about mantras... on mesmer...

[attractiveman.7164]

They are situational utilities like most ever other ability. This is no different for any other profession. Every profession has utilities that seem flavorless until you find a use for them.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Again missing the point...fact that these skills have no traits related to them, so many of the traits linked to them are long gone. People should really read the context of the thread before making comments.

[draxynnic.3719]

19 hours ago, attractiveman.7164 said:

They are situational utilities like most ever other ability. This is no different for any other profession. Every profession has utilities that seem flavorless until you find a use for them.

Compare them to skills that perform similar roles for other professions, though, and they come up very short.

This wasn't always the case, since the long count recharge rate was balanced by the expectation that you'd blow the charges and then be able to spend a few seconds recharging them after a short delay. This made them the reverse of firebrand mantras, which had a short count recharge time but punished using the final charge with a long wait before you can channel it again.

Then they removed the channel mechanic on both, but mesmer still has the long count recharge without the option to accelerate it by using the final charge and channeling (not to mention the benefits gained from channeling). It was a truly massive nerf to mesmer mantras.

This is why you get things like Blink being the preferred mesmer stunbreak even in PvE. Would you take 3s stability on a 30s recharge, or would you take teleporting away from the danger altogether? Now, bring up Mantra of Concentration's page from before May 2021. You could fully recharge those counts 15s after running out, and you got extra Stability, Aegis, and Quickness after charging as an added bonus at the cost of the recharge taking a couple of seconds to complete. That was actually worth taking.

Now, look at the May 2021 update. They deleted the channel-to-recharge mechanic, with literally zero compensation for the loss in the skill's power as a result of the removal. They could cut the count recharge in half and it would still be a weaker skill than it was in April last year. And that's just in PvE. It had already been boonsmited in competitive a year before that.

It's not a matter of being situational. They're just plain bad even in the situations that you're expected to use them. They just survive in some cases because it's the skill that was intended to be mesmer's answer to a situation, so there's a lack of alternatives.

Edited June 10, 2022 by draxynnic.3719