Suggestion: Please aim to bring Core and Elite builds closer together in power

[SponTen.1267]

Hey everyone.

I've been seeing a lot of theories floating around, especially since the launch of EoD, about what the 4th Elite specs could/should be, why Elementalist needs a ranged weapon (despite already having 2), why Ranger needs a proper pet and Elite spec for it, how Mechanist is going to be nerfed, 50/50 split on nerf Firebrand or keep it how it is, etc.

IMHO, there's already a metric kittenton of potential builds lying in waiting due to all the Core specs. The thing is: most Elite specs change their build identity enough that it can feel like a completely different class. If you want to play an Elementalist that just focuses on swapping Attunements and using a variety of skills, you're taking a fairly big hit to your potential by not picking up an Elite spec.

I've seen people say it's not possible to balance, because any Core spec that's buffed would then be the new pick as the 3rd spec for that build (#1 Elite > #2 Core > #3 Core, generally in order of power), but why can't most specialisations and skills be at least somewhat useful for most content? Core stuff doesn't need to be that much weaker just because it's Core.

Alternatively, could the third specialisation slot just always be the "Elite" slot? As in, what if it provided a "boosted" spec if you slot a Core specialisation in there? Thematically, it kind of makes sense, seeing as you don't get it til level 71. And it's already taken up by an Elite spec 99% of the time anyway. It would be interesting to be able to spec Fire + Earth + Arcane for a hybrid damage Elementalist, for example, so you might miss out on the Overloads you'd get from Tempest, but you'd gain the ability to switch Attunements much quicker (20-30%?) and much more self-Might uptime (2 from switching Attunements, up from 1), thanks to Arcane being "boosted".

What does everyone think about these suggestions?

Edited June 14, 2022 by SponTen.1267
Removed redundant spacing

[Dante.1508]

If they did that no one would buy expansions...

I'm on your side though i agree they need to do it, make older content actually useful across the board.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Mungrul.9358]

Somewhat ironically, Warrior's in such a bad place at the moment, I've found core builds to be more fun and reliable than e-specs (at least in open world).

[Puck.3697]

The problem is its inevitable for elites to win, elite speccs use all the core tools + added ones. 

Core has almost become the tutorial of your proffession at this point and without rly ruining the point of expansion purchases I can't see them reversing this tbh. 

[Dadnir.5038]

I'd like to point out that there are some core professions that aren't that far from their respective especs in term of performances based on the gamemode you play.

[Fan Didly Tastic.7169]

2 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

If they did that no one would buy expansions...

I'm on your side though i agree they need to do it, make older content actually useful across the board.

I think you should give the expansions a little more credit. There are other reasons to get them beyond e-specs.

I don't think a single game has a mount system as good as what came with PoF. Sometimes I find myself just spending an hour practicing becoming better with handling them, and it's fun! Hell, it's so good that even WoW is blatantly copying part of it. Not to mention all of the new map meta events, exploration content(such as jump puzzles), and new types of content that wasn't even in the game prior. That and the expansions do a huge amount to get more new players into the game. While they may not all be as good as PoF was, there are more reasons to get the expansions than just the e-specs.  That being said... I do agree, Core specs should be as consistently viable as e-specs are.

I'm not entirely surprised they haven't been quick to do this, however. If you buff core, it also indirectly buffs the e-specs because e-specs use core trait lines for synergies. So in doing so, one would have to account for this, and the more e-specs there are, the more compounding of a problem this can become, as the line between balanced and bustedly OP is sometimes very thin. And we can't forget that Core specs are more flexible as you can have 2 - 3, which allows for a ton of build synergy/variety. By buffing them it could cause a lot of OP builds that once unleashed, would be hard to take away from players again. Especially if it hit multiple classes at once.

My opinion is that A-net really only has 2 options(as anything else I fear would cause too much balance complexity); weaken e-specs to bring them down to core level (which I am not a fan of), or create a core e-spec that strengthens core, without changing it into another class variant (or requiring an expansion). If I had it my way, we would go for a core e-spec as I feel it would dodge a lot of the above issues. I know that's asking for a bit, but imo it's certainly less work than e-specs that completely change the class, creating an entirely new system, or buffing all core specs without creating dozens of balance issues across every class. It would also feel pretty good thematically, imo. E-specs are a great design concept, and I feel they could easily be used to fix the very issue they created.

It'd also be a cool finisher to cap off re-adding LWS1.😄

Edited June 14, 2022 by Fan Didly Tastic.7169
Grammar & clarity

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

This is an idea I also lean toward agreeing with. When elite specs were first announced the intent was to provide additional play styles and roles for specs that weren’t able to do certain things (example, Ranger not having good support / healing) and that they weren’t intended to completely overpower the base class. Obviously that’s not the case anymore, with base classes basically being non existent now outside of PvP and WvW (and even then, it’s majority elite specs).

I think the biggest crux of this issue is that when Anet added “trade offs” for the elite specs, none of the trade offs are equal to each other. So something like Untamed which virtually has no trade offs (just needs to manually cast pet abilities), Holosmith and Scrapper losing F5 for their respective abilities, Firebrand losing Virtues in place of Tomes, etc, they “trade off” for their abilities is basically non-existent. Compare this to Berserker not being able to burst outside of Berserk, Soulbeast losing pet swap, Scourge losing Shroud, etc.

I think the best solution (at least in my opinion) would be giving all elite specs the same fundamental trade off, in addition to any mechanics changes that they get (basically the “trade offs” they have now). People have thrown around the idea of a “base class elite spec” that is only available for the base classes. In my opinion, having the class mechanic traitline (ex: Arcane, Beast Mastery, Invocation, Tools, etc. The traitlines that affect the profession mechanic) be only available for base classes. This mostly because this traitline and the elite specs traitline a typically have *very* powerful synergy with one another. Obviously some classes have much more significant synergy than others, while other classes have a choice of another traitline to take (or simply don’t take this one in the first place), so a more broad balancing patch would need to be done to address this.

But regardless, the base idea would be to introduce a baseline trade off for all elite specs. Make the base class have something that elites are simply unable to take.

[SponTen.1267]

I would love some Elite specs to be nerfed slightly in some way. I think trade-offs are a really good way to do this. It makes sense, right? You pick this Elite spec and you super-specialise into something but you lose out on something else, like speccing Druid for support and losing damage and pet attributes. That's opportunity cost, which keeps games interesting as people discover unique little interactions over time where they can mitigate the cost of something, while still obtaining its benefit. That was part of the original design philosophy behind Elite specs (from what I've read).

That being said, having your 3rd Core spec being boosted to an "Elite" version would also work. I guess it would take a little bit away from the idea of "Core = power through variety", but hey, that's kind of the case anyway with specialisations.

Personally, I don't mind if Core builds are slightly less powerful than Elites. This is to be expected, because endgame now has kind of gone back to role-specific composition, so it's generally better to heavily specialise into a role. However, it would be (imo) good for the game and its future if you could diversify a little bit more, eg:
- Instead of a 3 dps + Quickness + Alac, what if you could go 2 dps/Quickness, 2 dps/Alac, 1 Might/Fury/heal?
- What if Ranger pets could tank in Raids?
- What if you just like the way Bursts work for Warriors and didn't want to change their profession mechanic by picking an Elite?
- What if you like having that F5 on Engineer for Elite Mortar Kit for an extra blast finisher? Or Supply Crates for the extra heals and condi cleanse?
- What if you could play a Hammer Revenant with Jalis/Ventari, so you can swap between tanking/Stability and healing/Alacrity (already possible, but kinda just bad in comparison to other options)?
- What if Tempest offered Overloads, Weaver offered Dual Attacks and split-Attunements, Catalyst offered Quickness, and Core Ele offered Alacrity and faster Attunement swapping by having Arcane as its boosted Core spec?
- What if Core Warrior and Mesmer could be heal/boon, heal/dps, or heal/tank?
- What if Firebrand wasn't the go-to for basically every type of support except Alacrity, and other classes were more comparable?

I swear there are so many options already that are nearly there, but just need that last little boost to really open up the build diversity for the majority of content. Sure, the very tippity-top endgame content will still require min/maxing, and likely mean that only meta builds are "viable", but there's still 99% of the rest of the game where it would be nice to have more options without feeling like you're just giving up on so much. And even with the top-tier endgame content, it certainly couldn't hurt to have the possibility of more builds.

Edited June 15, 2022 by SponTen.1267
Paragraph spacing

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Before we do that, let us bring the core classes closer together. 

Give every class the love and care that Guard and Necro are getting. 

 

[SponTen.1267]

2 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Before we do that, let us bring the core classes closer together. 

Give every class the love and care that Guard and Necro are getting. 

 

I'd argue that part of balancing Core and Elite would also end up balancing Core classes (and some Elites) in general.

But yes, I agree this should be done too.

[Cuks.8241]

On 6/14/2022 at 6:45 AM, SponTen.1267 said:

Alternatively, could the third specialisation slot just always be the "Elite" slot? As in, what if it provided a "boosted" spec if you slot a Core specialisation in there? Thematically, it kind of makes sense, seeing as you don't get it til level 71. And it's already taken up by an Elite spec 99% of the time anyway. It would be interesting to be able to spec Fire + Earth + Arcane for a hybrid damage Elementalist, for example, so you might miss out on the Overloads you'd get from Tempest, but you'd gain the ability to switch Attunements much quicker (20-30%?) and much more self-Might uptime (2 from switching Attunements, up from 1), thanks to Arcane being "boosted"

Thats a good idea. They could do as you suggested, every core line gets an elite boost in the 3rd slot. More work. 

Or the easy way, a general core elite boost regardless which core line is in the third slot. 

[anbujackson.9564]

Boosting core to the absurd levels of some especs is a bad idea. Arent you tired of powercreep already?

You might want to find a true balance between the elite specs first. Some offer almost nothing, others are more than just a complete package.

[SponTen.1267]

1 hour ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Boosting core to the absurd levels of some especs is a bad idea. Arent you tired of powercreep already?

You might want to find a true balance between the elite specs first. Some offer almost nothing, others are more than just a complete package.

100% agree that some Elite specs need a nerf, and am very tired of powercreep in games in general, GW2 included. I can't comment on full Elite spec balance though as I haven't played many of them; but I have played all the Core classes and have a general feel for how they are.

Edit: I don't want Core specs buffed to absurd levels. I'd actually prefer all Elites get nerfed down to about where Core classes are now, but imo that's much less likely than buffing Core up a bit. Plus, this would anger people who play the top end, even (ironically) the ones who are asking for harder content.

Edited June 15, 2022 by SponTen.1267

[Tycura.1982]

That doesn't make for good sales, pal.

[Shaogin.2679]

Honestly the balance really shouldn't be such an issue. I actually would have no issues at all if for the next expansion, instead of releasing new elite specs, they just completely reworked all of the core specs. Once your core specs are nice and balanced, you can balance elite specs without touching anything on the core specs. I have no idea why they constantly nerf core specs when trying to balance elite specs. Like if the core spec isn't broken but the elite spec is, then clearly something needs to be fixed with the elite spec, not the core spec. We've already seen that they can adjust base stat values when an elite spec is equipped. We've seen that they can adjust core trait values when an elite spec is equipped. They can split skills between game modes. I mean really, if the core spec is balanced, leave it alone and instead, fix your shiny new toy.

[SponTen.1267]

On 6/15/2022 at 1:01 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

The problem is its inevitable for elites to win, elite speccs use all the core tools + added ones. 

Core has almost become the tutorial of your proffession at this point and without rly ruining the point of expansion purchases I can't see them reversing this tbh. 

I don't believe this is the case. Elite specs were supposed to be some sort of compromise, to specialise in a certain area. Yes, they will probably always be better for endgame content and in groups, because you can focus on a specific role, which is generally more optimal. But the gap doesn't have to be as large as it currently is. We'll have to see after the June 28 balance patch how things are; I'd love to see, for example, Soulbeast being the best for a pure dps role as Ranger, but Core Ranger being the best for a dps/Alacrity hybrid role.

 

12 hours ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

Honestly the balance really shouldn't be such an issue. I actually would have no issues at all if for the next expansion, instead of releasing new elite specs, they just completely reworked all of the core specs. Once your core specs are nice and balanced, you can balance elite specs without touching anything on the core specs. I have no idea why they constantly nerf core specs when trying to balance elite specs. Like if the core spec isn't broken but the elite spec is, then clearly something needs to be fixed with the elite spec, not the core spec. We've already seen that they can adjust base stat values when an elite spec is equipped. We've seen that they can adjust core trait values when an elite spec is equipped. They can split skills between game modes. I mean really, if the core spec is balanced, leave it alone and instead, fix your shiny new toy.

I don't think ANet need to completely rework all the Core specs. Some big changes or reworks will be required, sure, but small numbers tweaks would solve a most of the little issues.

For example, does anyone actually use Soothing Ice or Stop, Drop, and Roll Water traits as an Ele? I feel like their cooldowns are just wayyy too high, and extra Vulnerability duration and damage to Vulnerable targets from Piercing Shards is just going to be so much better in 99.99% of cases. If Stop, Drop, and Roll's cooldown was removed completely, I still wouldn't consider the trait broken; you're limited by your Endurance for dodges anyway. And Soothing Ice could potentially do with a rework, considering it completely clashes with Stone Heart in Earth. Two traits that affect the same mechanic should never contradict each other unless they're insanely powerful alone. Perhaps its cooldown could be significantly reduced, as relying on being hit, let alone crit, is very risky and extremely unreliable, and it could still activate when you would have been crit (if that's possible).

Tons and tons of options with balance imo. Don't want to get my hopes up, but really hoping the June 28 patch opens up a bunch of new builds; even if they're not meta, I love looking at traits and skills and not knowing what to use, because all of them are useful in some way.

[Shaogin.2679]

10 hours ago, SponTen.1267 said:

I don't think ANet need to completely rework all the Core specs. Some big changes or reworks will be required, sure, but small numbers tweaks would solve a most of the little issues.

True, not all core specs will require an entire rework, but many of them are in a pretty bad spot and even with tweaking numbers they will need to put alot of work in to also decide how they will balance the elite specs after the core spec has been fixed. Not to mention some old utility skills are just garbage, such as Engineer turrets. With the amount of work required, this is why I wouldn't mind if it was part of an expansion feature. 

[SponTen.1267]

On 6/17/2022 at 8:06 PM, Shaogin.2679 said:

True, not all core specs will require an entire rework, but many of them are in a pretty bad spot and even with tweaking numbers they will need to put alot of work in to also decide how they will balance the elite specs after the core spec has been fixed. Not to mention some old utility skills are just garbage, such as Engineer turrets. With the amount of work required, this is why I wouldn't mind if it was part of an expansion feature. 

What makes the some skills so "garbage" that they couldn't be fixed (or at least, improved) with numbers tweaks? I can think of a few examples, like Elementalist Cantrips, but even in this case, if they were to reduce their cooldowns and allow the Soothing Disruption trait to also cause Cantraips to apply Alacrity, that would likely have them be significantly more useful.

Surely for things like Engi Turrets would see more use if they did enough damage and/or had lower cooldowns.

The only fully garbage things I can think of are few, eg: Glacial Heart making Hammer worse on Guardian, and some other traits like Ele's Soothing Ice and Stop, Drop, and Roll.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

The only way to do this without also buffing the elites at the same time is to lock the elite specs out of the core mechanic traitlines. Said traitlines would have to have any weapon traits moved out of them, but then they could be buffed without also buffing the elite specs. I would also not lock core only specs into the core mechanic traitlines.

[SponTen.1267]

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The only way to do this without also buffing the elites at the same time is to lock the elite specs out of the core mechanic traitlines. Said traitlines would have to have any weapon traits moved out of them, but then they could be buffed without also buffing the elite specs. I would also not lock core only specs into the core mechanic traitlines.

Well my thought would be to slightly lower the power of Elite specs while simultaneously increasing the power of Core specs, or just having a "Core Elite" that improves a Core trait in the 3rd slot (so Elites couldn't access it). I'd also be up for the Core Elite being applied to all Core specs but only be active without an Elite, but I feel like that would be a nightmare to balance.

Even so, just improving some underpowered/underused (in PvE) Core traits, skills, and weapons would go really far. I already mentioned a few in this thread, but another example would be ranged skills (Rifle and Longbow) on Warriors. I really, really doubt stuff like that would cause issues with Elites.

[kharmin.7683]

13 hours ago, SponTen.1267 said:

Well my thought would be to slightly lower the power of Elite specs while simultaneously increasing the power of Core specs, or just having a "Core Elite" that improves a Core trait in the 3rd slot (so Elites couldn't access it). I'd also be up for the Core Elite being applied to all Core specs but only be active without an Elite, but I feel like that would be a nightmare to balance.

 

Wouldn't that, though, sort of force players to have to take that third trait line for core?  I thought that one of the benefits of core is the ability to run any three core trait lines.  Granted, they could certainly use work, but having a "core elite" enforcement would, IMO, take away the creativity that core allows.  /shrug

[MrForz.1953]

If more trait lines have more value in a build's direction, they'd be considered over an elite trait line carrying a tradeoff. I admit I'd very much like a reason to play Core Engi again beyond "shits and giggles" and a moa one-trick in PvP.

Edited June 21, 2022 by MrForz.1953

[SponTen.1267]

On 6/21/2022 at 10:30 PM, kharmin.7683 said:

Wouldn't that, though, sort of force players to have to take that third trait line for core?  I thought that one of the benefits of core is the ability to run any three core trait lines.  Granted, they could certainly use work, but having a "core elite" enforcement would, IMO, take away the creativity that core allows.  /shrug

Oh I meant that whichever spec you slot in the 3rd line would be upgraded to an "Elite variant" of the Core spec.

Either that, or picking all 3 Core specs (instead of 2 + and Elite) upgraded them all slightly, so that Core builds were somewhat on-par with Elites overall.

Core builds don't have to outperform or even be on the same level as Elites in the areas Elites specialise, but they should be able to get pretty close imo. And their upside is that they have a little more versatility overall. For example, a Core Ranger doesn't have to have the same dps as a Soulbeast, but if they had 10-15% less dps and in return had their pet drawing aggro and an extra tidbit of boon support (or whatever else you spec into), they'd at least be a lot more viable.