New Meta being ruined

[SoulBlaze.3059]

Was with a meta running group in dragons end, we tried to join an instance and found that there was a large fishing group that refused to leave due to losing stacks. We told them they would lose stacks when the meta is failed anyways, and they still refused. We also found a botting group on the south side of the map of about 7 necros. We really need a way to allow fishing stacks to save temporarily for people leaving meta maps because these things are ruining meta runs. We also really need a way to boot botters. Its just dumb.

[Veprovina.4876]

Alternatively, your new meta is ruining their fishing?

 

No everyone is on that map for the meta, and you can thank Anet for making this toxic when it didn't have to be.

This could have easily have been an instance.

 

But no, every constructive criticism that would have helped make this meta great was ignored by Anet and instead they shoved in an unobtainable infusion as a .infinity% drop rate like the rest of them as if that would solve anything.

 

Tons of people asked what you said just now as well, to make fishing stacks persist map changes, yet Anet doesn't want to listen as well.

[ArchonWing.9480]

20 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Alternatively, your new meta is ruining their fishing?

 

No everyone is on that map for the meta, and you can thank Anet for making this toxic when it didn't have to be.

This could have easily have been an instance.

 

But no, every constructive criticism that would have helped make this meta great was ignored by Anet and instead they shoved in an unobtainable infusion as a .infinity% drop rate like the rest of them as if that would solve anything.

 

Tons of people asked what you said just now as well, to make fishing stacks persist map changes, yet Anet doesn't want to listen as well.

Yea they really need to look into the rewards system again. We've already seen the recent fiasco with the Gates of Arah and yet they still do not realize when there are obvious conflicts of interest that there will be problems. People are not going to leave a map at no benefit to themselves.

I was just doing some map stuff with friends and did take an interest in the meta, but we were fairly annoyed when told to leave. Granted we decided to cooperate and finished the event (3/4 of us including me never did the event before) but let's just say people were a bit more understanding this time as it could have easily broken down.

And the meta as a whole has terrible rewards. The pre-events aren't rewarding and tedious and the meta itself? If it weren't for the Antique summoning stones I would have mistakened it for WvW loot lol. So it's honestly not surprising why people are fishing instead.

Yes, it's a great fight and I really appreciated the return of the Bloodstone Fen skills. But it's also very obvious why more casual players are not too satisfied with it. The time required is just not worth the reward. And as you said, adding a tiny chance of infusion really doesn't help.

Edited June 19, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Twilightzone.7452]

Beside we also have HOT Dragon end that has more fun event chain build up, bosses and dragon fight that is less 11111111111 on the EOD ell that is a dragon apparently.  Fun fact you can AFK on the skyscale and burn once and get all the junk that clutters your inventory that people call "loot". I think I ended deleting it is all a waste of bits.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Twilightzone.7452

[Veprovina.4876]

9 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Yea they really need to look into the rewards system again. We've already seen the recent fiasco with the Gates of Arah and yet they still do not realize when there are obvious conflicts of interest that there will be problems. People are not going to leave a map at no benefit to themselves.

I was just doing some map stuff with friends and did take an interest in the meta, but we were fairly annoyed when told to leave. Granted we decided to cooperate and finished the event (3/4 of us including me never did the event before) but let's just say people were a bit more understanding this time as it could have easily broken down.

And the meta as a whole has terrible rewards. The pre-events aren't rewarding and tedious and the meta itself? If it weren't for the Antique summoning stones I would have mistakened it for WvW loot lol. So it's honestly not surprising why people are fishing instead.

Yes, it's a great fight and I really appreciated the return of the Bloodstone Fen skills. But it's also very obvious why more casual players are not too satisfied with it. The time required is just not worth the reward. And as you said, adding a tiny chance of infusion really doesn't help.

It's what people have been telling Anet all the time.

 

You can't shove hardcore content into open world, especially not one that requires planning and squad shenanigans without the tools for people to join. That's why there's instances, everyone who joins the squad, is in the same instance, for the same reason. That does not work in open world, not everyone wants to do the meta, nor should they be obligated to, or leave if someone else wants to. Half the time back when i was trying to do the meta for turtle, i was stuck in non meta maps with no way to join my squad.

 

Genious move there Anet, make a meta that requires a full squad, but don't give people the tools to meet at a specific map instance, or create a new map instance.

 

Then another high IQ move was to litter the map with achievements that have nothing to do with the meta, and then create a conflict of interest between OW groups. Nice, we want people to fight, the community was not toxic enough, need to pour some poison into the mix. 

 

Dragonstorm is an instance, why couldn't this have been one as well?

I know. Cause they needed to shove 2 hours of preparation time without which there was no chance of succeding.

Who approved that, i don't know, but that's not how you design events in this game.

 

But the top offender has to be 2+ hours of no rewards. I'm amazed people still do that meta...

[ArchonWing.9480]

27 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

It's what people have been telling Anet all the time.

 

You can't shove hardcore content into open world, especially not one that requires planning and squad shenanigans without the tools for people to join. That's why there's instances, everyone who joins the squad, is in the same instance, for the same reason. That does not work in open world, not everyone wants to do the meta, nor should they be obligated to, or leave if someone else wants to. Half the time back when i was trying to do the meta for turtle, i was stuck in non meta maps with no way to join my squad.

 

Genious move there Anet, make a meta that requires a full squad, but don't give people the tools to meet at a specific map instance, or create a new map instance.

 

Then another high IQ move was to litter the map with achievements that have nothing to do with the meta, and then create a conflict of interest between OW groups. Nice, we want people to fight, the community was not toxic enough, need to pour some poison into the mix. 

 

Dragonstorm is an instance, why couldn't this have been one as well?

I know. Cause they needed to shove 2 hours of preparation time without which there was no chance of succeding.

Who approved that, i don't know, but that's not how you design events in this game.

 

But the top offender has to be 2+ hours of no rewards. I'm amazed people still do that meta...

Lol, I really wish people heard you earlier, if you had expressed it at that time. I hadn't done the event until a few days ago but I already put it together that a combination of low rewards and player conflict are a bad combo. It's good they no longer locked the mount behind the event but as you imagine there's not much incentive to do the fight and it's pretty tragic. I actually enjoyed the fight and despite Twilightzone's meme up there I actually did compare it a little to Dragon's Stand because of the floating platforms and stuff.

A common retort to this was "git gud", and I say that a lot myself, but I understand it with the context of achieving a goal. If the result of gitting gud are not rewarding, then most casual players are simply not going to git gud. Why would you expect people to practice on getting better on something that rewards poorly and has a higher chance to fail?

It's also somewhat dubious how gud can you git too. There's so much downtime in parts that you cannot really speed it up by that much and there is no way in hell you are going to get pugs to expend even more effort to save 20-30 seconds. Granted atm the goal is just to finish but you know how it goes as people even mald in easy dungeons and fractals.

Now personally, I know I could have done better. I don't have a raid engineer build and was just using the LI flamethrower build, but modified for more support. If I had actually thought, I would have switched to either grenade or bomb instead of that. But i guess I was support? And are most going to even consider something like that because they are probably dead because Su-won ran them over like a train for the 5th time?

(Btw folks, staying alive is much more important than anything. Toss that dps check nonsense out the window. As expected, most people do not know how to interpret numbers. Why are people's DPS low? Well running back from a WP is 0 dps for a long while.)

 

At this point, I would say they could keep  either enhance the rewards by giving checkpoint rewards like they should to incentivize players to try no matter what or maybe make the timer an enrage instead of a hard fail. I guess you could move it to an instance, but that might be kinda sad. Maybe have a slightly easier one in the world and put in a harder instanced version?

I mean honestly the meta is not that hard (definitely not on the level of any raid, or CM fractal, or even the harder dungeons) but I'm going to first and foremost say that I am not a casual player and just expecting your average player to perform well out of the blue will not work.

 

If you want these players to tackle this that you really need more carrots. Like a truckload.

Edited June 19, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[vanfrano.1325]

Last year I got a survey from Anet, I haven't been playing for a while at the time. There was several questions including one asking how long a meta shoud last, how rewarding it should be and whatever. I remember answering 45min+ or 1 hour+, I don't remember exactly but I didn't expect them to release something as bad as Dragon's End (and EoD metas in general). I'm hoping they didn't use the survey answers to calibrate this meta because if I could change my answer and scrap the mess that is DE I would do it in a heartbeat.

Anet, please, I'm sorry I answered that, I meant long meta as in fun, challenging and rewarding meta not as... this thing I never went back to since April.

[Veprovina.4876]

1 minute ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Lol, I really wish people heard you earlier, if you had expressed it at that time. I hadn't done the event until a few days ago but I already put it together that a combination of low rewards and player conflict are a bad combo. It's good they no longer locked the mount behind the event but as you imagine there's not much incentive to do the fight and it's pretty tragic. I actually enjoyed the fight and despite Twilightzone's meme up there I actually did compare it a little to Dragon's Stand because of the floating platforms and stuff.

A common retort to this was "git gud", and I say that a lot myself, but I understand it with the context of achieving a goal. If the result of gitting gud are not rewarding, then most casual players are simply not going to git gud. Why would you expect people to practice on getting better on something that rewards poorly and has a higher chance to fail?

It's also somewhat dubious how gud can you git too. There's so much downtime in parts that you cannot really speed it up by that much and there is no way in hell you are going to get pugs to expend even more effort to save 20-30 seconds. Granted atm the goal is just to finish but you know how it goes as people even mald in easy dungeons and fractals.

At this point, I would say they could keep  either enhance the rewards by giving checkpoint rewards like they should to incentivize players to try no matter what or maybe make the timer an enrage instead of a hard fail. I guess you could move it to an instance, but that might be kinda sad. Maybe have a slightly easier one in the world and put in a harder instanced version?

I mean honestly the meta is not that hard (definitely not on the level of any raid) but I'm going to first and foremost say that I am not a casual player and if you want other players to tackle this that you really need more carrots. Like a truckload.

Oh, i made my voice heard, don't you worry. 

I even dissected what exactly is the problem with the meta, why, and suggested some fixes. 

So did a lot of other people, and a lot of the suggestions were amazing.

 

But apparently Anet has an ego now, and can't listen to criticism, let alone suggestions so...

All of that got ignored and they shoved an infusion in the loot table that literally fixes no complaints about the meta.

 

For what it is, the fights isn't that bad, it's little things amongst all of it that culminate in a frustrating experience for everyone involved.

 

Oh, and i love the "git gud" ones. The same ones that were saying "git gud" later bit their tongues and started defending the meta with "you noly need 5k dps" lmao. Well what is it, git gud or is the meta casual? Decide, then start spamming forums with conflicting posts.

 

But regardless of gitting gud or being casul, i'm still spending 2+ hours on nothing, on unfun escort runs and damage sponge minibosses to get to the actual meta event, to then have rng mechanics mess up the meta. Less now, they lessened it, but it's still RNG and has no business being in an open world meta like it's implemented. Well, it all ends in "reward" so shameful that even the wiki won't list it.

 

You literally get A.S.S., i think Anet knew what they were doing when they named those items.

Compare that to literally any HoT or PoF meta and rewards, and it's sad.

I have no idea what the new devs were thinking with EoD meta rewards, that content was dead before people even learned how to do them, and the entire EoD died like a month after. It's on life support due to Aurene legendaries, but without that, no one would be doing anything there. Why would you kill your newest content like that?

They already made research notes eat up all the low cost economy on TP, why are they afraid to give people rewarding content is beyond me. Especially in the newest expansion.

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

15 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Oh, and i love the "git gud" ones. The same ones that were saying "git gud" later bit their tongues and started defending the meta with "you noly need 5k dps" lmao. Well what is it, git gud or is the meta casual?

There is a bit of casual content (mostly fractals and sometimes dungeons) where content can be hard. But you know what the difference is? If you wipe, you just respawn and try again. It's been a video game tradition to repeatedly bash against something when you succeed but that's also why games have checkpoints lol. If you fail here, you have to organize a map and do the whole thing again just to have a chance and sometimes you may not even know why you failed.

And yea they didn't learn their lesson. You can pretty much get straight to the fight in stuff like TD/AB and the buildup is at a relaxed pace. But you don't have to do much if you don't want to.

I assure you if the Mai Trinn's Fractal was not just her but you had to go through the entire aetherblade thing then a lot of people would absolutely hate it.

As for the dps thing. Well, dps in a vacuum with full support doesn't really translate well to this fight plus downtime really messes with those numbers. 5k is not insignificant when you can't hurt the boss for a while I mean sure I can keep up 10-12k on my  kitten support Mechanist build by cleaving the adds but that doesn't really mean anything xD.

Dps under pressure without a good party is an entirely different story.

I guess people would have the best chance by bringing hybrid support builds for the most value to the squad but again for all of this?

Basically IMO, bad rewards = nobody tries = it gets harder because nobody tries. I mean Teq is actually mechanically pretty complex but the rewards are good enough that people probably have learned a thing or two about what to do because it's worth it.

  

15 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

They already made research notes eat up all the low cost economy on TP, why are they afraid to give people rewarding content is beyond me. Especially in the newest expansion.

I don't get it either. From what I've seen HoT metas are still constantly done while their less rewarding PoF counterparts are forgtten about. And the Living Story ones are frequently done, because, to the surprise of no one, they're rewarding. Heck, even Cursed Shore is rewarding and people do it.

Can't get more obvious than that. People will git gud if the rewards git gud.

Edited June 19, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[yoni.7015]

They should add 2 gold per day just like Tequatl and Dragonstorm. By now the meta doesn’t need to be nerfed anymore, it’s perfectly fine. The rewards are not fine and should be increased. Not everything in open world has to be without challenge and without the need to organize, there can be different types of open world events. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Farohna.6247]

In summary...Adjust fishing stacks to not clear on map change, like other buffs, give them a one hour timer or something.  Shorten the pre...it's a bit tedious.  Improve rewards, 2 gold and some better loots.  Let's hope some of this becomes a thing.

[Rogue.8235]

I'm hearing another case, albeit far subtler, of ArenaNet letting the philosophy that "all player's should be happy to see another player" slip by.

The explanations and discussion of competing goals in the same map area is something that ArenaNet would have missed initially, but now that it's becoming more obvious, something should be done.  The Lessons Learned binders need to be updated to reflect this consistently raised issue of competing goals.  

One thing that allows players to be happy to see one another is that not only do they not have competing goals which are exclusive to one another, their goals do not interfere with one another in any way.

 

This is an issue of high-level design.  Things are easier to adjust going forward, as long as all development is mindful of all lessons learned.  However, players should be aware of how difficult it is to fix existing content with better high level design.  Things need to be changed in a very fundamental way, which is not solved by minor tweaks to a few things here and there.  If ArenaNet is going to resolve the issue raised in this thread, some high level redesign and creative problem-solving are in order.  Again, this is not an easy fix, and not just for video game development.  Any company in any industry struggles with retroactively aligning some things to better fit higher-level strategies.  

 

[Veprovina.4876]

9 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

There is a bit of casual content (mostly fractals and sometimes dungeons) where content can be hard. But you know what the difference is? If you wipe, you just respawn and try again. It's been a video game tradition to repeatedly bash against something when you succeed but that's also why games have checkpoints lol. If you fail here, you have to organize a map and do the whole thing again just to have a chance and sometimes you may not even know why you failed.

Haha, i made that exact point in one of my earlier rants as well. 😄

And anet did what? They made it so that you can get 2 stacks of that buff in the pre-events.

But you still have to do the entire preparation, that fixed nothing!

And if you failed, well better find a new map with no LFG tools to make sure all 50 people are on the same map... Fun!

9 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

And yea they didn't learn their lesson. You can pretty much get straight to the fight in stuff like TD/AB and the buildup is at a relaxed pace. But you don't have to do much if you don't want to.

I assure you if the Mai Trinn's Fractal was not just her but you had to go through the entire aetherblade thing then a lot of people would absolutely hate it.

As for the dps thing. Well, dps in a vacuum with full support doesn't really translate well to this fight plus downtime really messes with those numbers. 5k is not insignificant when you can't hurt the boss for a while I mean sure I can keep up 10-12k on my  kitten support Mechanist build by cleaving the adds but that doesn't really mean anything xD.

Dps under pressure without a good party is an entirely different story.

I guess people would have the best chance by bringing hybrid support builds for the most value to the squad but again for all of this?

Yes, everyone is still very much obsessed with golem numbers which never translate well to open world, nor do the "meta" builds. And people take those expecting wonders then barely break 10k wondering what happened. 

Then you go to the snowcrows website, actually read what they say and see that you need a 50g writ, not be below certain % and a super specific **raid squad** compostion with all the boons to pull that off.

Yeah, good luck achieveing that in OW. 

But even without the DPS requriements of the meta or lack thereof, it's just badly designed throughout.

9 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Basically IMO, bad rewards = nobody tries = it gets harder because nobody tries. I mean Teq is actually mechanically pretty complex but the rewards are good enough that people probably have learned a thing or two about what to do because it's worth it.

Yes but teq meta was i presume designed when more competent people open to suggestions were employed at Anet. Those left.

9 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I don't get it either. From what I've seen HoT metas are still constantly done while their less rewarding PoF counterparts are forgtten about. And the Living Story ones are frequently done, because, to the surprise of no one, they're rewarding. Heck, even Cursed Shore is rewarding and people do it.

Can't get more obvious than that. People will git gud if the rewards git gud.

Right? I still do the occasional Dragonfall, and even Dragonstorm and Dragon's Stand metas. None of them seem like i'm wasting my time. They're either fast, as in boss isn't a bullet sponge, or don't have thousands of conflicting mechanics that you have to prepare 2 hours for.

Even Dragonfall that takes about 2 hours is drop in / drop out. You just do the events, and when you do enough boss spawns.

But all the events reward you with TONS of loot which compared to what Dragon's End gives you is like winning the lottery but the win is guaranteed.

The only ones i see doing DE are guilds that have something to prove to themselves or whatever... Cause 2+ hours for 1 A.S.S is worthless...

 

1 hour ago, yoni.7015 said:

They should add 2 gold per day just like Tequatl and Dragonstorm. By now the meta doesn’t need to be nerfed anymore, it’s perfectly fine. The rewards are not fine and should be increased. 

How would that solve anything OP was complaining about?

You still have conflicting interests in the map without any control over making your own meta centric instances.

That's exactly what Anet DID already by slapping an infusion on the loot table and the meta is still as garbage as it was.

 

The meta needs nothing short of a redesign.

 

7 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

I'm hearing another case, albeit far subtler, of ArenaNet letting the philosophy that "all player's should be happy to see another player" slip by.

The explanations and discussion of competing goals in the same map area is something that ArenaNet would have missed initially, but now that it's becoming more obvious, something should be done.  The Lessons Learned binders need to be updated to reflect this consistently raised issue of competing goals.  

One thing that allows players to be happy to see one another is that not only do they not have competing goals which are exclusive to one another, their goals do not interfere with one another in any way.

You think people didn't already point that out?

You think Anet doesn't know they messed this up?

But Anet is nothing if not consistent as they won't back out on what they made because massive ego, and god forbid they admit they were not in their best element when doing something, they're going to force the DE meta as it is until Anet is "right" whether we like it or not.

 

They'll sooner see all expansion content die than redesign it.

7 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

This is an issue of high-level design.  Things are easier to adjust going forward, as long as all development is mindful of all lessons learned.  However, players should be aware of how difficult it is to fix existing content with better high level design.  Things need to be changed in a very fundamental way, which is not solved by minor tweaks to a few things here and there.  If ArenaNet is going to resolve the issue raised in this thread, some high level redesign and creative problem-solving are in order.  Again, this is not an easy fix, and not just for video game development.  Any company in any industry struggles with retroactively aligning some things to better fit higher-level strategies.  

Well, when faced with overwhelming constructive criticism from the community that would actually solve 90% of DE's issues, Anet's response to that was - **"No, the meta is fine cause we made it and to prove it we're going to slap an infusion for easily addicted to gambling to make our statistics for us."**

 

And lo and behold, "DE is still alive" - because it's run by farmers - and Anet is somehow proven right that people are enjoying it because their statistics say so.

[Gorem.8104]

Oh hey Veprovina, I see you still at it with another giant poster 😄
I do still wonder if we'll see any changes, they appear to want to sweep this under the rug and focus on the next expac anyway. 

 

And the huge balance pass is about to come, gonna be interesting. Really though fishing in general has its own problems, such as dawn/dusk fishing, and how all fishing power seems to actually do is prevent the bad. I mean, i've got my own idea's as to how i'd redesign and redev the entire EoD expansion from start to finish at this point. Making the masteries good, using the city map well, making the meta's better, actually making the place rewarding ect. 

[Khisanth.2948]

3 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

If it weren't for the Antique summoning stones I would have mistakened it for WvW loot lol. So it's honestly not surprising why people are fishing instead.

Summoning stone is a red herring. It looks like a great amount of value but for 1h+ it is just okay and that is assuming you have a 100% success rate with DE.

[SlayerXX.7138]

3 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Yea they really need to look into the rewards system again.

*Reward presentation* Imperial favors are really valuable. In stark contrast what player say they want loot and unnecessary boxes to clutter their inventory so they can visualize their earnings. Maybe increase some rewards at cost off imperial favor? But people wont go poor from doing DE meta right now.

3 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

But no, every constructive criticism that would have helped make this meta great was ignored by Anet and instead they shoved in an unobtainable infusion as a .infinity% drop rate like the rest of them as if that would solve anything.

You can't always trust players see point above. Also constructive? Come on. You know it was mostly a riot and grieving with some reasonable points sprinkled within.

2 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Then another high IQ move was to litter the map with achievements that have nothing to do with the meta, and then create a conflict of interest between OW groups

That for example is a valid point. I add to that, the dragon has static hp so everyone not doing meta is one more level of challenge mode as Maps are always full if people attempt the meta.

2 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

You can't shove hardcore content into open world

*You can't place medium content were it is accessible by leeches, bots, halve afkers and people who refuse to look at traits after investing 100+ hours in a MORPG. Did someone do Dragonstorm public while it was fresh? It was Horrible. People dragged that encounter so much down. People just left even without a timer denying the reward. That is the reason i'm convinced adding to the timer or removing it entirely will change nothing. Ten man Dragonstorm is a really fun encounter when you don't have 25+ people kneecapping you. We could place DE into an private instance but people will complain anyway. 

2 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Oh, and i love the "git gud" ones. The same ones that were saying "git gud" later bit their tongues and started defending the meta with "you noly need 5k dps" lmao. Well what is it, git gud or is the meta casual? Decide, then start spamming forums with conflicting posts.

Now that is just strawmaning. Git gud was the elitist response pre nerf. After the nerf it is medium difficulty almost anybody agrees with that. Anet(and many people to be honest) just underestimated how apathetic and unwilling to try in earnest the bottom ca. 25% of the player base are.

Anet could work on rewards, making the fight scale on platform and maybe a couple of other tuning but 1 sad truth remains. You can't have epic fight accessible to the whole player base because depending on which people group up the enemy can look like a chump. Looking at you 30 seconds fire elemental "Worldboss". GW2 has to much skill expression. How difficult an Event is, is 90% depended on which part of the player base show up. The idea of an epic final battle is impossible with the reality of the current player base.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Veprovina.4876]

1 minute ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Oh hey Veprovina, I see you still at it with another giant poster 😄

It's just a multi quote with multiple people, i perfer not to spam the forums for each individual reply. 😉

 

1 minute ago, Gorem.8104 said:

I do still wonder if we'll see any changes, they appear to want to sweep this under the rug and focus on the next expac anyway. 

Well, i'm nothing if not optimistic, even though Anet keeps showing me how stupid that is to be... 

1 minute ago, Gorem.8104 said:

And the huge balance pass is about to come, gonna be interesting. Really though fishing in general has its own problems, such as dawn/dusk fishing, and how all fishing power seems to actually do is prevent the bad. I mean, i've got my own idea's as to how i'd redesign and redev the entire EoD expansion from start to finish at this point. Making the masteries good, using the city map well, making the meta's better, actually making the place rewarding ect. 

Well, balance pass or no, it AGAIN won't solve the issue that, this meta should be its own instace, without the 2 hour required  pre-events that give you nothing, just the meta, let it be on that map, and let it start public instances like Dragonstorm does, every few hours, with the ability to go in with your own squad immediately.

 

That's the only way they'll fix what they did and that's pitting people against each other. 

Hardcores can make their own squads, "casuals" and open worlders can wait for public instances, and fishermen and quest/achievement hunters can enjoy the map in all its glory.

[Veprovina.4876]

20 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

You can't always trust players see point above. Also constructive? Come on. You know it was mostly a riot and grieving with some reasonable points sprinkled within.

Don't put words in my mouth or red herring me, i never said ALL criticism was constructive, i just said there WAS constructive criticism. Yet none got past Anet's radar, and it wasn't hard to discern riot and grieving with constructive criticism that had actual arguments.

Quote

That for example is a valid point. I add to that, the dragon has static hp so everyone not doing meta is one more level of challenge mode as Maps are always full if people attempt the meta.

Yes, and if not everyone is doing the meta, it's a detriment. 

Quote

*You can't place medium content were it is accessible by leeches, bots, halve afkers and people who refuse to look at traits after investing 100+ hours in a MORPG. Did someone do Dragonstorm public while it was fresh? It was Horrible People dragged that encounter so much down People just left even without a timer denying the reward. That is the reason i'm convinced adding to the timer or removing it entirely will change nothing. I recently started doing 10 man Dragonstorm. It is a really fun encounter when you don't have 25+ people kneecapping you. We could place DE into an private instance but people will complain anyway. I would like a de instance.

I for one would never complain if DE was an instance. And neither would a lot of people. Even before with godawful RNG when not even "top tier raiders" could finish it. Cause then all the people are there for exact same reason, you can restart almost immediately if you fail, and no one would be dragging down the meta, nor would the meta be in the way of other stuff to do on that map. And while DE was ridiculously overtuned when it started, it wouldn't step on nearly as much toes, or breed toxicity as it does now.

Dragonstorm had different problems and that was people AFKing (which yes, happens in DE too) and scaling the event too much. DE, as you said, is static.

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Now that is just strawmaning.

No it's not, that happened, plus, you missed the point entirely where i explained how people bit their tongues?

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Git gud was the elitist response pre nerf. After the nerf it is medium difficulty almost anybody agrees with that. Anet(and many people to be honest) just underestimated how apathetic and unwilling to try in earnest the bottom ca. 25% of the player base are.

And there you go proving me that it's not just a strawman. We're talking about Open world players who don't have 2 hours a day to do giant unrewarding metas, then get to the final boss, maybe they have to AFK for a minute, maybe someone's baby is crying, maybe something happened in their lives at that time because they were forced to endure 2 hours of mind numbing content to get to the meta, plus give or take an hour to get into the meta map in the first place and god forbid they don't do their all after all that, they get called unwilling to try, casuals and losers by people with too much time on their hands and too little critical thinking.

Cause most open world players are just that - people who log in, do their dailies, maybe a meta or two and open world roaming, log out.

Yet it's suddenly expected of those people to be raid level - and yes that WAS expected at first before the nerf - and now they're called all sorts of things by elitists.

I'm above the casual player i think, i can pull off a lot of challanging content, plus i love to solo hard stuff. Even I was having enough of the mindnumbing rotational bullcrap by the time we started SooWon that i considered just logging out in the middle of it. Now imagine if you had actual responisbilities some people have, and waste time to get to the meta, then get yelled at for not doing DEEPEEES, while in reality, most haven't even heard a golem exists and have been doing fine without it. Then they hit a brick wall that asks too much of you.

This is not player's fault, no matter how much you want to make it so - this is bad design philosophy at work!

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Anet could work on rewards, making the fight scale on platform and maybe a couple of other tuning but 1 sad truth remains. You can't have epic fight accessible to the whole player base because depending on which people group up the enemy can look like a chump. Looking at you 30 seconds fire elemental "Worldboss". GW2 has to much skill expression. How difficult an Event is, is 90% depended on which part of the player base show up. The idea of an epic final is impossible with the reality of the current player base.

They had all the good criticism and ideas they needed, yet they ignored them all.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Veprovina.4876

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

And there you go proving me that it's not just a strawman. We're talking about Open world players who don't have 2 hours a day to do giant unrewarding metas, then get to the final boss, maybe they have to AFK for a minute, maybe someone's baby is crying, maybe something happened in their lives at that time because they were forced to endure 2 hours of mind numbing content to get to the meta, plus give or take an hour to get into the meta map in the first place and god forbid they don't do their all after all that, they get called unwilling to try, casuals and losers by people with too much time on their hands and too little critical thinking.

 Being present in the thing you do and git gud aren't the same buddy. If you have to take care of your kid don't play the part of the videogame which takes 2 hours. Daily thousands of Online matches in all kinds of games are lost because some RL stuff happens. People just move on. I didn't call anybody a loser. I called them apathetic and unwilling to try which should be a fact for everyone who did dragonstorm public. Do you count yourself to the people. Is that the reason you got so offended. Because you are actual agreeing with me.

The idea of an epic final battle is impossible with the reality of the current player base.

DE was designed to be an epic encounter. You cant nerf it to appease the bottom 25%. It just isn't build that way.

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Yet it's suddenly expected of those people to be raid level - and yes that WAS expected at first before the nerf - and now they're called all sorts of things by elitists.

And they fixed that. Right no it is doable. The biggest factor in success of the meta is not depended on the encounter but the player who show up. There is no fix for that. Most metas are done by a quarter of the map the rest might as well be the little brother with the control not plugged in. Not Dragons end. There is no fix for that.

Each nerf to the encounter or buff to rewards will attract more "little brothers" neutralizing the effect the nerf had for the average player. It will also encourage more exclusive LFGS.

Also Eod metas are meant to farm imperial favor not gold. I am 80% sure pre event delivers on that. Dint care to much about gold in OW so I cant be 100% sure.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Albi.7250

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

Summoning stone is a red herring. It looks like a great amount of value but for 1h+ it is just okay and that is assuming you have a 100% success rate with DE.

Well I had to find something to justify doing it being sightseeing. xD But maybe there's something better to pick?

Of course I could have someone educate me on some convoluted method to convert this currency to oranges and then to salmon and then to spirit sharrds.

Just kidding. I do find your information very valuable.

  

1 hour ago, Albi.7250 said:

*Reward presentation* Imperial favors are really valuable. In stark contrast what player say they want loot and unnecessary boxes to clutter their inventory so they can visualize their earnings.

Not sure if anyone actually wants a clogged inventory but ok.

  

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

And there you go proving me that it's not just a strawman.

Humorously enough it's even worse.

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Tiamat.8254]

Did you know, you can join a squad on another instance and right click a member of that squad and join them? This will get you away from people enjoying the map in a way you don't seem to find enjoyable. Although to be honest not sure what's preferable. 

[Labjax.2465]

3 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

I'm hearing another case, albeit far subtler, of ArenaNet letting the philosophy that "all player's should be happy to see another player" slip by.

I'm doubtful the current Anet team even knows what GW2's original philosophies were. Which is not meant to be a dig at them as people, but more like a sad acknowledgment of the consequences of layoffs and changing staff over time.

[Baseleader.4128]

I do think making it Drizzlewood-esque would be a good idea. So that you earn gold along the way with the preparation instead of making all the rewards lie at the end. That way people don't feel bad if the meta fails at the end, cause you've gained value along the way. The fight itself is fine now though, if you organize a bit properly you should really not fail very often anymore.

[Westenev.5289]

1 hour ago, Tiamat.8254 said:

Did you know, you can join a squad on another instance and right click a member of that squad and join them? This will get you away from people enjoying the map in a way you don't seem to find enjoyable. Although to be honest not sure what's preferable. 

 

Chances are that meta squad is on the same instance (or full). Until Anet adds a way to freely choose your instance, this argument's logic is questionable in practice, since you can't actively dodge worlds inhabited by meta lovers or fishing groups without co-ordinated help (like how the triple trouble guild seeds bloodtide coast with players to find empty maps).

[Rogue.8235]

4 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

You think people didn't already point that out?

You think Anet doesn't know they messed this up?

But Anet is nothing if not consistent as they won't back out on what they made because massive ego, and god forbid they admit they were not in their best element when doing something, they're going to force the DE meta as it is until Anet is "right" whether we like it or not.

 

They'll sooner see all expansion content die than redesign it.

 

There are very few people that act like 6 year old children.  If you truly think this is how things are, you really need to get out more and interact with adults.  This is no where close to how the world works.

Also, the complaints that I see are emotional whinging.  It's rare that I see a rational argument backed by logic on these forums.  Your post exemplifies this.  So My post is more a translation of emotional ranting into something that adults can better grasp.

It isn't that ArenaNet is "egotistical" but more that redesigns need to be done correctly and with as few incidents as possible, both predicted and unforeseen.  Just like ArenaNet does not have "favorite classes."  These are childish concepts that do not apply to a professional business environment.

 

You're emotional ranting is going to be dismissed as just that, emotional ramblings that contribute nothing to constructive discussion.  If you want your thoughts and opinions to actually be heard, try having constructive discourse.