Giving those using infantile raid mode full rewards is a huge punch in the gut from anet to their hardcore players

[Einsof.1457]

 TL;DR:d Infantile mode helps no one, it cheapens the experience for everyone, and makes rewards feel less rewarding

 

Not only is infantile mode apparently going to be default (wtf?), but those who are using it get FULL rewards? With the current power-creep the game is already seeing, and the skill ceiling and skill floor basically right next to each other, arenanet seems adamant about destroying the 0.0001% of the game that requires just a little bit of brain power in favor of the screeching masses who want everything without any effort. This HURTS the game. Why? Reward without effort is CHEAP. It does not have the same dopamine hit as the kind of hit you get from struggling and then succeeding. Without the thrill of overcoming a challenge, people are actually more likely to quit. Imagine if everything was given to you. You'd be bored in days, if not hours. This is not good design. If anything, they should have added CM+ mode to raids, to keep those playing raids engaged. 

[Hotride.2187]

Yeah players like that (OP) is why I stopped joining raiding guilds in WoW. Always taking the longest to learn the encounter and being the most proud of learning it afterwards. Woah it was difficult. No, not really.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[MokaKittyKat.7620]

It's only one wing per week that get the "infantile mode". At best they make 16 golds (W4, 4 encounters, double gold).

 

Raids are often seen as scary and elitist by many players who never raided. For some of them, spending a few hours in a training without a kill is a waste of them. 

 

By turning the difficulty down for training groups for ONE wing per week will make these players more susceptible to join trainings because they have greater chance to see a kill.

 

Many raiders I know complain about "raids being dead and not enough new players participating". This change should attract more "casuals" (used as a contrast to the OP's "hardcore") into the raids, which I think will be a good thing for the community.

Maybe some of these players will be like "oh this was fun, raids aren't so bad! I should learn other wings too!" And they will gradually become a more knowledgeable player in raids.

Besides, everyone starts somewhere — these new players getting rewards should not influence you in any way

Edited June 23, 2022 by MokaKittyKat.7620

[Fueki.4753]

If you don't want the buffs, don't use them. End of Story.

I'd rather have had Arenanet making a proper normal mode in addition to the current hard and challenge modes, but they chose the easy way out and did mere attribute raises.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Einsof.1457]

15 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If you don't want the buffs, don't use them. End of Story.

I'd rather have had Arenanet making a proper normal mode in addition to the current hard and challenge modes, but they chose the easy way out and did mere attribute raises.

That's not the point. The point is it cheapens the reward structure of the content. They want to make an infantile mode? Fine. Do not award LIs or achievements. That's all that needs to change. There is nothing LEgEnDaRy about this mode. 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Zok.4956]

1 hour ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Not only is infantile mode apparently going to be default (wtf?),

First: It is called "Emboldened mode"

Second: It is completely optional. "Emboldened mode is entirely optional, and for those who prefer the challenge, it can be turned off by visiting the Emboldened mote inside that raid."

 

1 hour ago, Einsof.1457 said:

but those who are using it get FULL rewards?

Rewards yes, achievements no: "certain prestigious achievements are not obtainable when under the effects of the Emboldened enhancement"

So you can still show off with some of your "prestigious achievements".

 

1 hour ago, Einsof.1457 said:

arenanet seems adamant about destroying the 0.0001% of the game that requires just a little bit of brain power in favor of the screeching masses who want everything without any effort.

If players want to leech, they already can get carried through raids without own effort. But the changes are not about giving players rewards without own efforts: "Deadly encounter mechanics will still be deadly—and players will still need to respect them—but this system will give new raiders a chance to ease into learning them."

 

1 hour ago, Einsof.1457 said:

it cheapens the experience for everyone, and makes rewards feel less rewarding

Maybe for you and you don't like that raids maybe become more accessible and hopefully more populated. But that would be a small price to pay. 

I think the changes are going in the right direction. My experience is not cheapened if content I like becomes more accessible for other players (and I still can play the content the way I like it, because the accessibility changes are optional and can be switched off).

 

[Fueki.4753]

14 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

That's not the point. The point is it cheapens the reward structure of the content. They want to make an infantile mode? Fine. Do not award LIs or achievements. That's all that needs to change. There is nothing LEgEnDaRy about this mode. 

Making it accessible to more players without destroying the currently existing experience is a good thing in every conceivable way.

Giving LI for the buff usage is fine, as it's still significantly slower than raiding all wings each week.

And they already plan to limit the achievements one can get.

 

 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

Not working on CMs, resetting on boss kills and only one wing per week sounds like a fair downside to a stacking "maybe with this you can do it" buff. 

[mindcircus.1506]

2 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

 TL;DR:d Infantile mode helps no one, it cheapens the experience for everyone, and makes rewards feel less rewarding

 

Not only is infantile mode apparently going to be default (wtf?), but those who are using it get FULL rewards? With the current power-creep the game is already seeing, and the skill ceiling and skill floor basically right next to each other, arenanet seems adamant about destroying the 0.0001% of the game that requires just a little bit of brain power in favor of the screeching masses who want everything without any effort. This HURTS the game. Why? Reward without effort is CHEAP. It does not have the same dopamine hit as the kind of hit you get from struggling and then succeeding. Without the thrill of overcoming a challenge, people are actually more likely to quit. Imagine if everything was given to you. You'd be bored in days, if not hours. This is not good design. If anything, they should have added CM+ mode to raids, to keep those playing raids engaged. 

Thank you for being a living breathing example of the "Hardcore" Stereotype that the low effort Andys on this forum keep using as a tale to frighten children around the campfire.
The world needs more living memes.

[Wolfshade.9251]

I'm glad Anet is making raids appear less scary to noobies, but there should be at least some effort to reward ratio in place.

Also, as much as I like helping out in some trainings and low kp runs, as soon as I see the enabler mode turned on, I'm ditching the group.

[Shikaru.7618]

Overall this change is going to be positive for the community. It makes the game mode way more accessible to players with a bad perception of the game mode, or those feel like they've been locked out due to performance. It was done in such a way that used way less dev resources than making an easy mode with mechanics taken out.

 

The only thing I'm keeping my eye on is how bad habits will form because of this buff in newbie runs. Hypothetically, with increased healing and hp people will ignore eating mushrooms on sloth, ignore the blacks on gorse, not bother kiting sabetha flak. Who knows only time will tell.

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,
Just a reminder to keep it civil and constructive.
Regards.

[Angelz.9713]

Enabling people to do hard content that are not ready for it or just not willing to put the time into becoming good at it is overall a bad idea. I get that its hard to get into raids but there are guilds out there like mine who train raids in a non toxic environment and provide support for new raiders. Also, Strike Missions were put in as a stepping stone to raids and yet there is a huge raid community who had none of that when we started and are doing great. 
This new mode is going to enable people to slack off -- they won't need good dps numbers, they won't need high boon uptime, they won't need to do mechanics so what is the point really? Not only that but it SHOULD NOT be on by defaut at all and there should be far less rewards if they use this mode and no kill proof tokens at all. 
We are going to see an increase in farming this new mode -- groups will go in and fail as many times as it takes to get the full buffs and other perks, clear the wing and then nothing else. 
A better idea would have been to put this mode in the EOD strikes, not our raid wings. 
Very disappointed in this decision by GW2 but really not surprised.  

 

[Labjax.2465]

It's not infantile mode at all. You're still going to get crushed by mechanics if you don't learn them. The way I see it, it's a way for a game with no natural gear progression to simulate such in the moment for those teams who struggle extra hard and they are only doing it for one raid wing each week, so if you progress solely this way, progress will be slow and gradual, much like how it would be doing progression raiding.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

When the general playerbase does 10% the damage of raiders, 50% more damage is still only 15% of raiders. They might be able to survive vgs greens with twice the health, but they will die at enraged. Even if by some miracle they kill vg, gors and sab are both enrage instant wipe mechanics. 

This is kinda the same for all bosses, name me a boss that having twice the health will bypass all mechanics including post enraged. In reality, infintile mode will only allow player who are starting to get good access to raids, which will hopefully lead to them getting better as they challenge harder and harder bosses.

Gor example infintile w5 will still be impossible for the 1 spammers. 

 

[mythical.6315]

13 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Gor example infintile w5 will still be impossible for the 1 spammers. 

Not when people are requesting all of those low effort builds where you barely need to do a rotation. You may see them more commonly labeled as low intensity builds. 

[Labjax.2465]

11 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

Not when people are requesting all of those low effort builds where you barely need to do a rotation. You may see them more commonly labeled as low intensity builds. 

They are low intensity builds, not low effort builds, for a reason. Because it isn't about some derogatory idea of enabling low effort as you try to put it, it's to help people who for one reason or another would struggle with a more complex rotation while doing mechanics. The main bragging rights to being able to do a complex rotation while doing mechanics is that you have dexterous fingers and use of hands (if you use a mouse) and aren't prone to getting distracted easily, things that people have little control over. Apart from that, it's mostly muscle memory and raw practice hours. Interestingly, I've anecdotally seen somewhat of a correlation between people who are or were practiced musicians at some point and people who do well with complex rotations, but if such a connection exists, that's likely a skill they started on earlier in life and not something you can pick up and be adept at in a year.

[Slash.9450]

New requirement for raids, be able to do ./gg really fast after a pull to get more buffs and complete a easy kill (with full rewards). Pure genius !

[Gorem.8104]

The faster you die, the better and easier the fight is! 
Anet is so weird. Is this really to get more people who don't want to raid, to raid? Good luck with that. 

[mythical.6315]

54 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

They are low intensity builds, not low effort builds, for a reason. Because it isn't about some derogatory idea of enabling low effort as you try to put it, it's to help people who for one reason or another would struggle with a more complex rotation while doing mechanics. The main bragging rights to being able to do a complex rotation while doing mechanics is that you have dexterous fingers and use of hands (if you use a mouse) and aren't prone to getting distracted easily, things that people have little control over. Apart from that, it's mostly muscle memory and raw practice hours. Interestingly, I've anecdotally seen somewhat of a correlation between people who are or were practiced musicians at some point and people who do well with complex rotations, but if such a connection exists, that's likely a skill they started on earlier in life and not something you can pick up and be adept at in a year.

It’s a build that requires less effort because the rotation is much similar.  Unless you can say that doing a simpler rotation takes as much effort as doing a more complicated one, I’m not wrong. 

Edited June 23, 2022 by mythical.6315

[SlayerXX.7138]

38 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

The faster you die, the better and easier the fight is! 
Anet is so weird. Is this really to get more people who don't want to raid, to raid? Good luck with that. 

It is anet decision makers being cheap with dev hours again. I bet the idea from the devs was to make an easy mode, but estimated DEV hours were to big. So some smart guy suggested to just use a buff to make an easy mode. Some promising idea again squashed by some manager being cheap.

 

[Labjax.2465]

13 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

It’s a build that requires less effort because the rotation is much similar.  Unless you can say that doing a simpler rotation takes as much effort as doing a more complicated one, I’m not wrong. 

As I said, they are called low intensity for a reason. You can ignore that all you want to mischaracterize the builds so you can put down other players, it doesn't make what you say accurate. Intention here is way more important than semantics and the builds have the intention of being low intensity for people who need that, not being low effort for people who don't want to try.

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

As I said, they are called low intensity for a reason. You can ignore that all you want to mischaracterize the builds so you can put down other players, it doesn't make what you say accurate. Intention here is way more important than semantics and the builds have the intention of being low intensity for people who need that, not being low effort for people who don't want to try.

Do they require less effort than builds that have a more complex rotation?  Yes or no?

[Firebeard.1746]

It's obvious that anet wants hardcore players in strike cms these days anyway with the changes to rewards. They also communicated as much in the post. In this world, the LI needs to be worth something, and the only way for that to happen is by making it easier to unlock the collections required for envoy and coalescence, as fewer and fewer hardcore players will funnel into raids with this reward change. It's completely fair.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Tukaram.8256]

5 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

The faster you die, the better and easier the fight is! 
Anet is so weird. Is this really to get more people who don't want to raid, to raid? Good luck with that. 

If it entices some to try it, that may be good.  It will not get me interested ha ha... 😎