The Banners of Nerf

[Grand Marshal.4098]

19 hours ago, Jajo.1428 said:

Apparently as a warrior I should have been shagging banners more than trump for all these years, judging by these forums...

kitten banners! They were trash design before, now they just made their trashiness consistent. PvE meta warriors have effectively been playing with only 1 utility slot for years because of them.

Naturally. 

So destroying banners and options brings more buildcraft options when the rest of the kit has not been buffed anywhere else? 

No lol. 

 

[Jajo.1428]

On 7/12/2022 at 4:21 PM, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Naturally. 

So destroying banners and options brings more buildcraft options when the rest of the kit has not been buffed anywhere else? 

No lol.

How is freeing up utility slots destroying options? And the rest of the kit not being buffed has nothing to do with removing banners' unique buff. Or are you really trying to sell me, that the only way to buff everything apart from banners is to buff banners?

[Grand Marshal.4098]

3 hours ago, Jajo.1428 said:

How is freeing up utility slots destroying options? And the rest of the kit not being buffed has nothing to do with removing banners' unique buff. Or are you really trying to sell me, that the only way to buff everything apart from banners is to buff banners?

You don't free kitten, cause you could play DPS warr before the patch and you play it the very same way now. 

The core problem lies in warrior's lack of useful and impactful utilities. 

If you remove a set of it's utilities you simply reduce options. 

So you gotta aim at reworking the banners to make them fun and viable, whilst looking over the rest of the skills too, in order to diversify play. 

Removing skill types is not healthy for a class that's as simple as it gets. You cripple the class with less options than the classes that it compete's with. 

Guardian has a use for most of it's skills and util types. That's what we should aim for. Not removal of things that 'limit' play. You just need to see why that option formed the problem in the first place and balance it with a reward if something is to be removed. 

They blatantly did what you claim. They made banners so bad, no one plays bannerslave. Is warrior better? No. 

[Jajo.1428]

4 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

You don't free kitten, cause you could play DPS warr before the patch and you play it the very same way now. 

The core problem lies in warrior's lack of useful and impactful utilities.

Doubling down on "banners is the only way to buff", I see.

Yes, warrior lacks useful and impactful utilities. I completely agree. SO THEY SHOULD GIVE HIM SOME! Warrior could have 1000000 utilities, but what good would that do, if only 3 of them were viable?

FJC, everyone's acting like banners were the top kitten gamer god design and perfectly implemented just the way they should have been and would always have to be... They were not.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

23 minutes ago, Jajo.1428 said:

Doubling down on "banners is the only way to buff", I see.

Yes, warrior lacks useful and impactful utilities. I completely agree. SO THEY SHOULD GIVE HIM SOME! Warrior could have 1000000 utilities, but what good would that do, if only 3 of them were viable?

FJC, everyone's acting like banners were the top kitten gamer god design and perfectly implemented just the way they should have been and would always have to be... They were not.

Youre missing the point. 

Banners, is just a name. The proposed funvtionalities to banners people have discussed on this forum are nothing like current iterations of banners for the most part. 

So you simply get stuck with the technicalities. While the main point is, to make banners, a useful utility type. Not because its banners. But because they can be useful for a support playstyle (the only thing shared with the initial banner design). 

Because, surprise, surprise, warrior cant play support with shouts. SpB makes up for it with tankiness and strips and core can only cleanse, which is something druid can do, but compared to FB, Scrapper and other specs, its only 20% of the support deal. 

 

[Jajo.1428]

31 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Youre missing the point. 

Banners, is just a name. The proposed funvtionalities to banners people have discussed on this forum are nothing like current iterations of banners for the most part. 

So you simply get stuck with the technicalities. While the main point is, to make banners, a useful utility type. Not because its banners. But because they can be useful for a support playstyle (the only thing shared with the initial banner design). 

Because, surprise, surprise, warrior cant play support with shouts. SpB makes up for it with tankiness and strips and core can only cleanse, which is something druid can do, but compared to FB, Scrapper and other specs, its only 20% of the support deal. 

 

I agree with you completely! Make banners useful utility skills! But don't make them something that every warrior everywhere should always have!

And all the proposed functionalities, that people have discussed have at least one thing in common: that banners should be changed. And that's what ANet (poorly) did.

My point has never been anything other, that banners, as they were, were bad, because they were cramping up warrior builds (playstyle-wise). It was banner juggling, or GTFO. Good riddance to that.

I'm not saying, that banners, as they are now, are better, but they sure did dramatically fix the main grievance I had with them.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Jajo.1428

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

20 minutes ago, Jajo.1428 said:

 But don't make them something that every warrior everywhere should always have!

Nobody (here, in the warrior forums) thinks this.

We're all upset that, instead of fixing the numerous issues that warrior had that culminated in it only having one boring viable way to play, Anet instead just removed the one viable way to play, in the most obnoxious way possible. 

There are several ways that Anet could have adjusted that one viable way to play to open up other avenues, but they didn't, and that's why everyone's particularly upset about banners.

Of course, there will be some people upset merely because banners got deleted and not because of any of the underlying issues that caused people to begrudgingly call the playstyle "bannerslaving" for...what, several years?

But everyone here wanted other options. Asking for another option and getting the option you had taken away is particularly frustrating, though.

Quote

I'm not saying, that banners, as they are now, are better, but they sure did dramatically fix the main grievance I had with them.

That grievance being that people were expecting you to take them to buff their group?

Okay. They might just plain not take you now though.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Grand Marshal.4098]

31 minutes ago, Jajo.1428 said:

I agree with you completely! Make banners useful utility skills! But don't make them something that every warrior everywhere should always have!

And all the proposed functionalities, that people have discussed have at least one thing in common: that banners should be changed. And that's what ANet (poorly) did.

My point has never been anything other, that banners, as they were, were bad, because they were cramping up warrior builds (playstyle-wise). It was banner juggling, or GTFO. Good riddance to that.

I'm not saying, that banners, as they are now, are better, but they sure did dramatically fix the main grievance I had with them.

Yeah I can see what you mean. It's just that as Azure described the problem is that we wish for banner functionality, not for banners being forced on us. If you build them for support, play them as support. At the same time examine the DPS. The only good thing out of the unique buff removal, is that a banner support warrior won't be unique enough to necessitate a spot in the comp. 

Sadly, they failed to give it a proper rework and look, as well as compensation to other elements of warrior that got tweaked and needed the banners before.

[god fragment.5716]

The main mechanical change in the last patch was the removal of (somewhat unique) stat-based group buffs that the banners were the very definition of. I for one belive that the banners were holding warrior development back, because as long as they existed, warriors would always get a spot in a group, regardless of the rest of their skills and were therfore neglected. Now that the banners are gone, this neglect has become apparent and therefore the developers will have to bring warrior up to the current meta standards.

As for the banners, there isn't much that can be done, since their mechanical identity has been renoved from the game. The only thing that can be done is to give them enough boons or conditions in order to make them viable, but not mandatory as they were before the change in order to avoid slavery 🙂

 

 

[anbujackson.9564]

36 minutes ago, civokenes.3284 said:

The main mechanical change in the last patch was the removal of (somewhat unique) stat-based group buffs that the banners were the very definition of. I for one belive that the banners were holding warrior development back, because as long as they existed, warriors would always get a spot in a group, regardless of the rest of their skills and were therfore neglected. Now that the banners are gone, this neglect has become apparent and therefore the developers will have to bring warrior up to the current meta standards.

As for the banners, there isn't much that can be done, since their mechanical identity has been renoved from the game. The only thing that can be done is to give them enough boons or conditions in order to make them viable, but not mandatory as they were before the change in order to avoid slavery 🙂

 

 

Its funny when you see the warrior playrate drop dramatically because only the warrior mains remained and the "slaves" moved on. Probably to mech I guess.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

 warrior playrate drop dramatically because

only the warrior mains remained

 

Keep in mind that data doesn't show how many warriors just outright quit.  Don't assume people are still there, just on alts -too- hard.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Vanthian.9267]

On 7/9/2022 at 2:07 PM, Rysdude.3824 said:

This is stupid. Even for the warrior forum.

Careful, I got banned for a few days for telling someone my posts require some reading comprehension.  But I assume the people on the Warrior sub forums have thicker skin due to the treatment of the class they play, so you may be safe from the reports. 

[Dante.1508]

It doesn't take rocket science to see warriors are in a terrible state..

[Aeolus.3615]

On 7/16/2022 at 5:51 AM, Dante.1508 said:

It doesn't take rocket science to see warriors are in a terrible state..

Better send Anet a quantum physics book, a rocket science book wont do much.

But whenever they say will update/balance stuff i feel they are still learning how to read process.....

Sadly i dont think even Anet  knows what to do with classes and how their balance work... as a player i feel they are completelly lost after the game realease.

The boon condi system is already overloaded, changin banners to more boons makes ZERO sense anyway...

 

Anet better think better mechanics to add and rework banners again....its just the 4th time since 2012 and they dont even have a clue on how to make them work diferently, gw2 never changes....

Edited July 18, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[anbujackson.9564]

8 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Better send Anet a quantum physics book, a rocket science book wont do much.

But whenever they say will update/balance stuff i feel they are still learning how to read process.....

Sadly i dont think even Anet  knows what to do with classes and how their balance work... as a player i feel they are completelly lost after the game realease.

The boon condi system is already overloaded, changin banners to more boons makes ZERO sense anyway...

 

Anet better think better mechanics to add and rework banners again....its just the 4th time since 2012 and they dont even have a clue on how to make them work diferently, gw2 never changes....

Cant make strong core utilities/traits for boons because they get abused like crazy by especs.

Just focus on utility or you know.. actually useful boons. 

I mean... no protection or resolution or stability? Seriously? Who cares about might and fury.

[Aeolus.3615]

18 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Cant make strong core utilities/traits for boons because they get abused like crazy by especs.

(snip)

Reason why sometimes  core gets crazy nerfed  to debuff elite specialçizations, maybe Anet  needs to   make a core elite spec with those strong  traits than can bork up other specializatioins.

And part of the conflict ends.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Vancho.8750]

20 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Cant make strong core utilities/traits for boons because they get abused like crazy by especs.

Just focus on utility or you know.. actually useful boons. 

I mean... no protection or resolution or stability? Seriously? Who cares about might and fury.

Well the warrior elite spec slot skills are also garbage so take that, ha.

[Bunny.9834]

They needed to add some kind of additional effects to the banner instead of just straight up just dropping them to provide boring boons. The only way you can semi-upkeep quickness is to use Diviner's gear, which of course would lower your DPS. But even with that, it's hard to upkeep quickness because Soldier's Focus's quickness is not long enough and it has a 10s ICD. In certain e-specs, it's hard to upkeep this because burst skills are locked like BS or Berserker. 

Just put quickness on Battle Standard and reduce its cool down to 90s. Remove the other boons from it. That way, with Alacrity, you can maintain it. 

The Banner Trait now adds new effects: 

• Banner of Strength:
  • main boon: Might 
  • additional effect: Adds an additional stack of might every 3 seconds. 
• Banner of Discipline: 
  • main boon: Fury 
  • additional effect: Pulses a buff to allies that removes a boon every 10s. (increase in competitive) 
• Banner of Tactics:
  • main boon: Regeneration
  • additional effect: Heals every 3 seconds
• Banner of Defense 
  • main boon: Protection
  • additional effect: Applies barrier every 3 seconds

[jpsssss.7530]

I love how warrior has to take 2 whole traitlines, 3 utilities, and their elite skill, with a specific weapon to achieve the same quickness as FB with the FB trait line and 2 buttons.

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 7/14/2022 at 3:09 PM, Jajo.1428 said:

My point has never been anything other, that banners, as they were, were bad, because they were cramping up warrior builds (playstyle-wise). It was banner juggling, or GTFO. Good riddance to that.

I'm not saying, that banners, as they are now, are better, but they sure did dramatically fix the main grievance I had with them.

If they're cramping up builds, guess what: they're bad. No need to beat around the bush. Just call it out and tell it as is.

 

On 7/14/2022 at 2:16 PM, Jajo.1428 said:

FJC, everyone's acting like banners were the top kitten gamer god design and perfectly implemented just the way they should have been and would always have to be... They were not.

Nobody is saying that.

[Dante.1508]

How about that extra 5% today.. 😂 Sorry Anet that wont be bringing me back to Warriors..

[Aeolus.3615]

12 hours ago, jpsssss.7530 said:

I love how warrior has to take 2 whole traitlines, 3 utilities, and their elite skill, with a specific weapon to achieve the same quickness as FB with the FB trait line and 2 buttons.

Maybe quikbrand will get nerfed in the future, and make players play more in team and have more theorycrafting while doing teams builds rather than being carryed by 1 spammer.

Isnt that what a mmo is about? 

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[firedragon.8953]

Edit: Moved to own thread.

Edited July 21, 2022 by firedragon.8953

[Axl.8924]

AHAHA ANET actually killed warrior when they tried to make them more useful  its more of a sad pitiful laugh at the situation than at warrior UGH.

[Dadnir.5038]

20 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

AHAHA ANET actually killed warrior when they tried to make them more useful  its more of a sad pitiful laugh at the situation than at warrior UGH.

The moment they said that they would remove the unique buffs from banners, everybody knew deep inside that banners would be dead. What wasn't expected was the joke that happen when someone want to move a banner.

The same way, the moment people realized that warriors' banners would be out of the picture, they knew deep inside that warrior would lose the last niche that kept it afloat.

Personally I've been saying since march that the change to banners would hurt warriors like hell. This change is like kicking a downed man in the nuts instead of giving him an helping hand.