ArenaNet have broken my Thief/Deadeye

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

On 7/1/2022 at 1:18 PM, Chrysaliss.8720 said:

If you wanna play solo and gather stuff all day, you should try Skyrim.

Where did I say I want to solo and gather all day? It is the last 2 words where you made your mistake. You asume I only want to farm, if I wanted that, I'd roll an engi or necro and passively farm. A form of farming most people disagree with. 

And due to when I am online, I am often alone yes. And gw2 tailors to that. I want ArenaNet to keep that in mind, it's not all about instanced group content. The game is a balance between the 2. This balance patch feels like a step in the wrong direction for that.

[Sindrener.1592]

Is this a late april fools joke?

[Ghost.5637]

Agree with title.

Bit of a salt post but I was a shadow arts deadeye main since it came out. Every major patch something gets hit.

Backstab damage nerf, increased cd on withdraw and roll for ini, lower stealth duration on meld and the dodge with rifle, increase ini costs for death's retreat. Sure, "warranted". Whatever.  But by removing that increase stealth duration in the trait line was the last straw. Superspeed is cool and all but this playstyle of "entering and leaving stealth rapidly" is wack.

Also no, blinding powder and shadow refuge are not worth slotting. Utilities made for those not using a dedicated trait line to stealth, which now isn't dedicated to stealth anymore.

What the hek man. 

Edited July 2, 2022 by CreedOfGod.9764

[Bazsi.2734]

This is just an intricate trolling post. At least this is what I have chosen to belive, as a self defense mechanism. Nobody is this <redacted>. We are intelligent creatures, humanity has a bright future ahead.

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

19 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

If you haven't seen it, the June 28th update changed several Shadow Arts traits along with other trait lines and utilities.

One direct nerf to stealth uptime is the new Meld with Shadows which no longer increases the duration of self-applied stealth.  So every time you stealth via Silent Scope, you no longer have that extra duration.

[...]

Indeed.  And it is incredibly debilitating.  I would much prefer to still gain the extra stealth duration than Superspeed, which is useless for farming.

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

16 hours ago, Wusch.6380 said:

@OrangeHedgehog.6310 

 

I am trying to be constructive, no flaming intended:

 

1. You didn‘t even know combo fields. What makes you think you could assess wether they broke the class or not?

 

2. Your statements are exhaustingly long. I could summarise them in 3 sentences.

 

3. The game changes. Try to cope with that and find new ways (it is fun and you’ll gain a lot more knowledge about your class).  
 

4. Get down from that high horse and stop being a toxic player that thinks everyone else is worse than him. Be one of the chill guys, they are the best.
 

5. You tried to farm gold in a PvP-Area… This is a bit like someone trying to play basketball in a soccer game (this comparison is a bit off since it is just an odd way to play and there is nothing wrong with that). Just don’t complain about them destroying your fun when they just enforced the rules of the game mode and made it better for everyone else.

 

 

1. They broke what I was using.  No more evidence is needed.
2. Fine, help yourself.
3. As they say, there are certain constants: death, taxes and change.   That this change has decreased the fun makes it dislikeable.  Evidence confirms others find it to be less than positive, too, so at least I'm not alone in that.
4. Since when was standing up for one's position toxic?  What is toxic is the way ArenaNet have screwed over gamers in my position without any care for the knock-on effects.
5. I farm the nodes in WvW, and that's wrong?  If they weren't meant to be farmed they wouldn't be there.  Oh, and the whole enforce the rules thing, they changed the rules to suit people who for some reason dislike not being able to attack a character. 

So, there's Anti-permastealth Brigade, who seem to dislike that a character can be stealthed, thus preventing the aggressor from, well, being able to be to be suitably (for the aggressor) aggressive?  Said Brigade entirely ignoring the fact that for a character to use the permastealth tactic, they can't attack, nor can they count towards claiming an objective (so hardly helpful in PvP or WvW).  Said stealthed character presents so little threat as to be nothing to worry about (those who enjoy ganging up on other players typically have hi DPS characters and can down a level 80 Thief (inc derivations) in about 2 seconds).  Other than it apparently caused The Brigade to get it's underwear in a twist to the extent that some Id10T decided to seriously nerf the ability of the Thief character.  What makes this worse is that instead of doing a per game-type time change, to apply to just PvP (not WvW), which where there is no farming, the Id10T who signed it off simply agreed to apply it to all three environments.  That was entirely unnecessary, unwarranted, and demonstrates a lack of perception and or laziness on the part of ArenaNet for not considering how to minimise the negative impacts of the change (I will not call it an improvement, it is the polar opposite).

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

17 hours ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

Youre talking about pve farming mats...like, who the f cares. The issue lies with PVP and WVW. Not gathering mats on a pve map.

The people who farm for materials care.  Anyone who doesn't understand, or accept that that is part of the game is part of the problem.

 

There's no farming in PvP, although some of the arenas do have the 'collect a resource' thing going on, but still, seriously, being able to collect the resource whilst being stealthed was such a game-breaker?  That mechanic isn't even used in all the PvP arenas.  WvW has nodes.  If they didn't expect them to be farmed they wouldn't be there.  If you want people to farm the nodes, don't break a mechanic which negatively impacts their ability to do so.  So, really, this is about PvP alone, and even that argument is weak.

 

There wasn't actually any issue at all: Thief is squishy.  Most combat-heavy characters can either dispatch a Thief, or scare it off (same result, no Thief to worry about), very quickly. 

 

From what I can tell, the perceived issue was the ability for people with Thieves to use something they're referring to as permastealth.  This isn't actually an issue, because in both PvP and WvW, a stealthed character doesn't contribute towards claiming an objective. and any attack removes the stealth, opening up said Thief to a world of hurt, very quickly.  The argument the Anti-permastealth Brigade don't want to openly admit to, is that they disliked other people being stealthy because it hindered their ability to be aggressive, "Oh, the squishy Thief ran way and I couldn't hit it!".  So, what the world has come to is a change which enables people who are innately aggressive to be aggressive more effectively.  There is so much wrong with that concept it's unbelievable that someone in ArenaNet would actually sign-off on it.

 

The underlying cause of the broken change is that someone in ArenaNet either failed to appreciate the impact on farming, or simply did not care.  Again, if they didn't care, they're part of the problem.  If they failed to notice, well, that's just incompetence; they're supposed to be experts in their game.  If they didn't understand how the game is being played that's very disappointing. 

 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

37 minutes ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

The people who farm for materials care.  Anyone who doesn't understand, or accept that that is part of the game is part of the problem.

 

There's no farming in PvP, although some of the arenas do have the 'collect a resource' thing going on, but still, seriously, being able to collect the resource whilst being stealthed was such a game-breaker?  That mechanic isn't even used in all the PvP arenas.  WvW has nodes.  If they didn't expect them to be farmed they wouldn't be there.  If you want people to farm the nodes, don't break a mechanic which negatively impacts their ability to do so.  So, really, this is about PvP alone, and even that argument is weak.

 

There wasn't actually any issue at all: Thief is squishy.  Most combat-heavy characters can either dispatch a Thief, or scare it off (same result, no Thief to worry about), very quickly. 

 

From what I can tell, the perceived issue was the ability for people with Thieves to use something they're referring to as permastealth.  This isn't actually an issue, because in both PvP and WvW, a stealthed character doesn't contribute towards claiming an objective. and any attack removes the stealth, opening up said Thief to a world of hurt, very quickly.  The argument the Anti-permastealth Brigade don't want to openly admit to, is that they disliked other people being stealthy because it hindered their ability to be aggressive, "Oh, the squishy Thief ran way and I couldn't hit it!".  So, what the world has come to is a change which enables people who are innately aggressive to be aggressive more effectively.  There is so much wrong with that concept it's unbelievable that someone in ArenaNet would actually sign-off on it.

 

The underlying cause of the broken change is that someone in ArenaNet either failed to appreciate the impact on farming, or simply did not care.  Again, if they didn't care, they're part of the problem.  If they failed to notice, well, that's just incompetence; they're supposed to be experts in their game.  If they didn't understand how the game is being played that's very disappointing. 

 

The thing you're missing is that using permastealth to farm nodes is all the class could do in PvE until this year, and it was never going to get changed to be able to do more as long as SA existed in it's previous form. Yeah, the change messed up a LOT of builds (inc my cele specter build), but if this means the class can actually have stuff buffed without making D/P SA daredevil stupidly OP in the process then I'm all for it. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

5 hours ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

From what I can tell, the perceived issue was the ability for people with Thieves to use something they're referring to as permastealth.  This isn't actually an issue, because in both PvP and WvW, a stealthed character doesn't contribute towards claiming an objective. and any attack removes the stealth, opening up said Thief to a world of hurt, very quickly.  The argument the Anti-permastealth Brigade don't want to openly admit to, is that they disliked other people being stealthy because it hindered their ability to be aggressive, "Oh, the squishy Thief ran way and I couldn't hit it!".  So, what the world has come to is a change which enables people who are innately aggressive to be aggressive more effectively.  There is so much wrong with that concept it's unbelievable that someone in ArenaNet would actually sign-off on it.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you don't play WvW do you?

Permastealth is/was HUGE for hiding in structures to then port your allies back in and bypass any need of siege.  This means high level structures (i.e. T3) flip extremely fast with few people if the thief isn't found.  

They actually buffed deadeye a lot with removing the stealth aspects--you're just going to have to learn what the dodge key is now I guess.  

 

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

When people gonna asume that we do not know how to dodge because we oppose the deadeye changes, then this is no longer a viable discussion for me. 

FYI: I can simply take my Scourge out. Farm everything on my Scourge, because my Scourge does not need stealth or support. But it takes 3 times longer. Simply put: Not worth my time.

[EEB.7082]

its even more sad for me i loved my thief in WvW roaming stalth build, they nerf and nerf the thief all the time, but this nerf is to much im going to play less and eventually get bored, i dont like more classes in all the mmos i played i always pick thief or assasin class because the core mechanic of them is stealth always been, now they arenanet butchered for the 10 time the core mechanic of thiefs, its not even a nerf, it was destroyed, why ??? do you even asked all the thief players ? or you just listed to the other OP classes that never get nerfs, im pissed really, i dont even want to play thief anymore whats the point of 1 second stealth, i dont get it, so arenanet want us to play the way they want the thief, i was so happy for the new expansion and my new builds now i dont know if i will play..... sad after 7 or 8 years

[MarkBecks.6453]

On 7/1/2022 at 10:10 AM, Geiir.7603 said:

If anything, the June 28th balance patch should have made Deadeye open world farming even better?

You now gain: 3 initiative when you enter and leave stealth, superspeed for 2 seconds when entering and leaving stealth. You basically have infinite access to initiative to spam d/p stealth, insane mobility with super speed and more access to stealth.

What changed for you that made this worse to move around and farm?

Silent Scope which gave 4 seconds of stealth and enough time for your bar to build up so you could disengage enemy, now its 3 seconds in PVE and 1 second in WvW, not even mentioned in PATCH NOTES, truly professional. The bar now takes 10 seconds to fill before you can dodge again, leaving 9 seconds of spamming every other stealth option, WHATS THE POINT because you to busy trying to dodge NPC's who teleport to you and kill you. My deadeye is shelved, thrown away, discarded, absolutely useless

 

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/2/2022 at 5:26 PM, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

The thing you're missing is that using permastealth to farm nodes is all the class could do in PvE until this year, and it was never going to get changed to be able to do more as long as SA existed in it's previous form. Yeah, the change messed up a LOT of builds (inc my cele specter build), but if this means the class can actually have stuff buffed without making D/P SA daredevil stupidly OP in the process then I'm all for it. 

Sorry, you've made the assumption that I know (and 100% of everyone else knows) what the abbreviations you've used mean.  (I think the only one I'm guessing correctly on is, "OP" = overpowered)

Please expand on "SA" and "D/P SA".

Given I've gotten my Thief to level 80 in PvE, and have completed both Heart of Thornes and Path of Fire, albeit it with challenges.  I contribute to a few group events, too.  Granted, some of that time is using Shadow Refuge to give others stealth, whilst also actively healing them whilst we're both stealthed, but that's called teamwork.  I rather enjoy the Hologram arena, and generally contribute, albeit likely not doing as much damage as the 'tanks'.  But again, that's simply having variety.  That someone actively decided to brake the ability for Thief to do what many players enjoyed about the Profession says more about their lack of care for such players, than it does about players who actually enjoy doing the material gathering.  It's very disappointing.

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

1 hour ago, MarkBecks.6453 said:

Silent Scope which gave 4 seconds of stealth and enough time for your bar to build up so you could disengage enemy, now its 3 seconds in PVE and 1 second in WvW, not even mentioned in PATCH NOTES, truly professional. The bar now takes 10 seconds to fill before you can dodge again, leaving 9 seconds of spamming every other stealth option, WHATS THE POINT because you to busy trying to dodge NPC's who teleport to you and kill you. My deadeye is shelved, thrown away, discarded, absolutely useless

 

This.  This is why ArenaNet have demonstrated how utterly incompetent the decision-making process was (and thus how incompetent/biased the person who signed it off is, too).

I'm very sorry to hear how badly this has affected your enjoyment of GW2, although as I'm merely another similarly-affected player, I can't actually do anything to correct ArenaNet's poor choices, other than to highlight that their decision was misguided at best.  They will, apparently, only listen to the more aggressive players.

 

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/3/2022 at 12:17 AM, Tuna Bandit.3786 said:

When people gonna asume that we do not know how to dodge because we oppose the deadeye changes, then this is no longer a viable discussion for me. 

FYI: I can simply take my Scourge out. Farm everything on my Scourge, because my Scourge does not need stealth or support. But it takes 3 times longer. Simply put: Not worth my time.

Indeed, it's that additional time it now takes which hurts so much.
My thanks go to those who have pointed out that you can use a few other skills in combination to be stealthed for a longer duration, but none of those suggestions are actually practical for farming nodes; you need to spend too long stationary to harvest nodes and you become unstealthed.  

That has the knock-on effect that you likely get targetted/aggro'd, which then means you can't mount and get get to the next node as quickly.  And that's if you even managed to finish farming the node.  [Edit: Oh, and to assign those different skills it means forgoing Signet of Shadows and the +25% movement speed which, it turns out is, if not essential, very, very, necessary to be able to move between nodes and avoid NPCs.  To say ArenaNet didn't think the changes through carefully enough would be a huge understatement.]

"But there are Glyphs which mean you can farm instantly".  Urm, yeah, sure {tone=100% sarcasm}, but not 100% of the time, and that means you can't use another Glyph (at least, I have not yet come across any harvesting tool which can have two Glyphs - if it's possible I would have Timekeeper and Watchknight on the logging and mining tools.

Edited July 4, 2022 by OrangeHedgehog.6310
Additional content

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/2/2022 at 9:52 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you don't play WvW do you?

Permastealth is/was HUGE for hiding in structures to then port your allies back in and bypass any need of siege.  This means high level structures (i.e. T3) flip extremely fast with few people if the thief isn't found.  

They actually buffed deadeye a lot with removing the stealth aspects--you're just going to have to learn what the dodge key is now I guess.  

 

Yeah, I do, a bit.  Sounds like an epic, if somewhat fantastical and boring, tactic.  That tactic relies on someone staying unfound for most of the five minutes it takes for it to become possible to capture the objective.  Oh, and to have previously taken the objective to get the Thief inside in the first place.  Unless there's a way to get folks inside objectives, without having first completed the siege efforts, that I'm not aware of?

From the WvW groups I've taken part in, no-one is prepared to hang around for those five minutes; they're off attacking other objectives.  The experienced WvW leaders actively dissuaded playing Thieves, because they bring so little to the party.  So much so I made a Support Firebrand specifically to join in with the WvW.  I learnt that doing so earnt me more WvW progression than the Thief character.  That emphasised that playing a Thief in WvW is definitely not a great idea.

Still, that likely very few, people were prepared to engage in that tactic doesn't warrant breaking the Thief build in PvE, as well as WvW, and they broke Thief in WvW even worse than they did in PvE.  Even just applying the PvE level of harm to the build would have been sufficient, let alone breaking it as much as they did.  It is increasingly looking like ArenaNet are biased against Thief, or that whoever signed-off on the build is incompetent.
 

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

1 hour ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

Please expand on "SA" and "D/P SA".

D/P SA = Dagger/Pistol Shadow Arts (trait line).

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

2 hours ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

Sorry, you've made the assumption that I know (and 100% of everyone else knows) what the abbreviations you've used mean.  (I think the only one I'm guessing correctly on is, "OP" = overpowered)

Please expand on "SA" and "D/P SA".

Given I've gotten my Thief to level 80 in PvE, and have completed both Heart of Thornes and Path of Fire, albeit it with challenges.  I contribute to a few group events, too.  Granted, some of that time is using Shadow Refuge to give others stealth, whilst also actively healing them whilst we're both stealthed, but that's called teamwork.  I rather enjoy the Hologram arena, and generally contribute, albeit likely not doing as much damage as the 'tanks'.  But again, that's simply having variety.  That someone actively decided to brake the ability for Thief to do what many players enjoyed about the Profession says more about their lack of care for such players, than it does about players who actually enjoy doing the material gathering.  It's very disappointing.

Apologies, it's common parlance with the players I normally interact with to use those abbreviations even among non thieves, but I shouldn't have assumed. SA = shadow arts, D/P = dagger mainhand pistol offhand weapon set.

 

Daredevil running shadow arts and trickery on the dagger pistol set have been the dominant build in WvW and PvP for years, and it's usually the spec that generates 90% of the salt associated with thief (the other 10% was permastealth deadeye). Specter has largely replaced it in PvP from what I understand, and from the perspective of a player who has seen this build be meta for the best part of 9 years I'm all for anything that shakes the tree a bit. Particularly if the removal of the "crutch" traits in shadow arts (so named as they propped up the class & bad players in competitive modes) leads to buffs in other areas to compensate, buffs that couldn't have taken place beforehand without making the class (and specifically dagger pistol daredevil) busted.

 

That all said, I do think that people are overreacting a bit when they say that deadeye is dead. PERMASTEALTH RIFLE deadeye might be dead, but in general that's a good thing for world versus world (WvW) (and even then I've seen rifle & dagger pistol deadeyes doing fine while roaming). I'm playing full marauder gear with antitoxin runes in WvW, rifle with sword dagger, and the amount of cleanse, superspeed and initiative from SA is actually insane. It feels great to play. In player vs player (PvP) the stealth traits were already nerfed in duration to make them only a target drop, couldn't even queue a stealth attack off them reliably the duration was so short, so it can only be a buff here too. The patch will rub a lot of people up the wrong way because of how central shadow arts is to the meta builds and to people's role play fantasies etc, but IMO it was a needed patch for the good of the class. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Jugglemonkey.8741
Abbreviations

[Svarty.8019]

On 7/2/2022 at 4:23 PM, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

Anti-permastealth Brigade, who seem to dislike that a character can be stealthed, thus preventing the aggressor from, well, being able to be to be suitably (for the aggressor) aggressive?  Said Brigade entirely ignoring the fact that for a character to use the permastealth tactic, they can't attack, nor can they count towards claiming an objective (so hardly helpful in PvP or WvW). 

I have couple of points from a WvW perspective to debunk that statement;

1. Since guards and lords in WvW have never been buffed, one or two thieves can probably kill all the guards and the lord.
2. A competent Permastealth thief can could avoid combat (especially when you factor in it's ridiculous teleports) for as long as they like.
3. Thieves were given the ability to portal allies.

The combination of these facts makes the objective game rather annoying. I mean, it'd be fine if there was a long hunt around the objective and the thief eventually lost. But they don't lose, they just keep hiding. Defenders have to call for more and more assistance and we end up with 15 people dropping traps to catch one thief. Or lose the objective.

That's a typical WvW Permastealth experience. 

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

1 hour ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Apologies, it's common parlance with the players I normally interact with to use those abbreviations even among non thieves, but I shouldn't have assumed. SA = shadow arts, D/P = dagger mainhand pistol offhand weapon set.

 

Daredevil running shadow arts and trickery on the dagger pistol set have been the dominant build in WvW and PvP for years, and it's usually the spec that generates 90% of the salt associated with thief (the other 10% was permastealth deadeye). Specter has largely replaced it in PvP from what I understand, and from the perspective of a player who has seen this build be meta for the best part of 9 years I'm all for anything that shakes the tree a bit. Particularly if the removal of the "crutch" traits in shadow arts (so named as they propped up the class & bad players in competitive modes) leads to buffs in other areas to compensate, buffs that couldn't have taken place beforehand without making the class (and specifically dagger pistol daredevil) busted.

 

That all said, I do think that people are overreacting a bit when they say that deadeye is dead. PERMASTEALTH RIFLE deadeye might be dead, but in general that's a good thing for world versus world (WvW) (and even then I've seen rifle & dagger pistol deadeyes doing fine while roaming). I'm playing full marauder gear with antitoxin runes in WvW, rifle with sword dagger, and the amount of cleanse, superspeed and initiative from SA is actually insane. It feels great to play. In player vs player (PvP) the stealth traits were already nerfed in duration to make them only a target drop, couldn't even queue a stealth attack off them reliably the duration was so short, so it can only be a buff here too. The patch will rub a lot of people up the wrong way because of how central shadow arts is to the meta builds and to people's role play fantasies etc, but IMO it was a needed patch for the good of the class. 

Thanks.  I'm not 100% sure when you say "generates 0% of the salt".  Would it be fair to say, "anger" or "vehemence" instead instead of 'salt?

 

Thank you for acknowledging that the build I've been using for around two years, from my first ever GW2 character (well, since reaching level 80...) is now no longer playable.  Now, all I would like is for ArenaNet to also formally acknowledge they've killed the build and then perhaps they can work out how to fix things so that I can actually play the character I've invested thousands of hours in. 

Spoiler

I propose how they could have better implemented the change below.

 

The build you have with the cleanse/superspeed &etc may be just fine for your purposes, which seem to be offence.  But it's not for me or others, who want to run a defensive build which can go farming effectively.  Are we lesser players because we want to use the build we're familiar with or because we want to run a defensive character which can farm?  It certainly seems like some folks think we shouldn't be treated with any regard, including, very sadly, ArenaNet.

A significant part of the problem is ArenaNet's incompetence in designing, approving and deploying the change.  A single second of stealth from a dodge (as is now the case in WvW) has no tangible benefit, it might as well not work at all.  But then it would be far too obvious that they want to kill off a principle feature of a Profession whose fundamental basis is, and should be, stealth.  <sarcasm> Can't have that [their agenda] being obvious), can we? </sarcasm>  Instead of breaking the build by using the limitation they've gone for, all they needed to do was remove the duration bonus applied by Meld with Shadows in WvW and PvP only).  This would kowtow to those who are aggressively (and IMHO unreasonably) against Thieves being able achieve permastealth whilst having zero negative affect for players wanting to farm in PvE, and minimising the negative aspects on farming in WvW, whilst also making it considerably harder, if not impossible, to achieve permastealth. in WvW, which appears to be the fundamental argument from the Anti-Permastealth Brigade.

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

50 minutes ago, Svarty.8019 said:

I have couple of points from a WvW perspective to debunk that statement;

1. Since guards and lords in WvW have never been buffed, one or two thieves can probably kill all the guards and the lord.
2. A competent Permastealth thief can could avoid combat (especially when you factor in it's ridiculous teleports) for as long as they like.
3. Thieves were given the ability to portal allies.

The combination of these facts makes the objective game rather annoying. I mean, it'd be fine if there was a long hunt around the objective and the thief eventually lost. But they don't lose, they just keep hiding. Defenders have to call for more and more assistance and we end up with 15 people dropping traps to catch one thief. Or lose the objective.

That's a typical WvW Permastealth experience. 

Thank you for taking the time to put that perspective across.  My counter debunking:

1. So, two experienced players with suitably built characters can take out the guards and lord by hanging around inside an objective?  How did they do that without first the walls first being breached through siege?  Then we have to consider that they've got to wait at least five minutes for the objective to be reclaimed/claimed by another opponent, then another five minutes before they can claim it.  Seriously, that's ten minutes of hanging around, and they shouldn't be rewarded for their patience?  Patience which is seeing their participation counter going down all the time they're not doing something active.
2. Sure, but whilst they're stealthed they can't attack or contribute towards claiming an objective.  No active threat.  Sure, there's a passive threat, but again, it's not without it's own cost.
3. So, they have an ability similar to Mesmers.  In PvE I've used it numerous times to help players get to the end point of a daily jumping puzzle.  In WvW it is akin to having an insider who has opened the door in the secret passage to their their colleagues in.  Oh, yeah, that's the sort of thing spies and thieves  could be expected to do!  The argument against that is, what?

The objection here seems to be that it takes a lot of people to find a Thief.  So?  Comparing to a real life scenario of an infiltrator in a castle, that's what it would take, a lot of manpower (in the gender-neutral sense), if you want to invest in tracking them down.  Instead of actively tracking them down, a few people remain and the Thief's ability is nullified because as soon as they reveal themselves all hell breaks loose and they get squished pronto.  Because remarkably squishy.  Or they run away/hide.  Which again nullifies them as a threat.   Those on Thief-watch could be rotated, if enough people think it warrants the effort.  Somehow, from observed experience, that is unlikely to happen because not enough people actually have that much animosity, or are simply more interested in gaining active benefits from taking objectives.

The argument about the presence of a Thief occupying a dozen or more defenders seems to be routed in 'we think it's unfair that this could happen'.  I'm sorry, did I hear crying from the corner about how that means some people are tied up by a single infiltrator?  Yeah, well, that's what happens.  One of the duties of captured soldiers for example, is to escape.  It is not so much the getting back to your own lines that matters, but the use of resources in tracking and recapturing the escapee.  One individual could tie up hundreds, if not thousands, of people.  In a more offensive similarity, a single defender, suitably prepared, could cause massive disruption to a group of attackers.  It's a very common principle that if you're attacking something, the attacking forces need to outnumber the defenders by three to four to one, and yes, a single effective defender can defend against a considerably larger force.  You're not going to see a Thief succeeding in that in GW2 though.  Personally, as a player, I would get very bored of hanging around like that, all the while my activity in WvW is dropping, and I'm not earning anything out of doing so.  It's more productive to be out with a larger group actually achieving an objective.

No worthwhile argument in favour of the breaking of the build across all three play environments has yet been presented.  There was no need to break it at all in PvE, and simply eliminating the duration bonus from Meld With Shadows in WvW and PvP only would have sufficed.  (Not nerfing it all the way down to one second of stealth from a dodge.  That's so utterly, utterly broken it's ridiculous.)

If ArenaNet wanted to provide players with a different build it should have been an option, not forced and not across all three environments to such an extent that it makes the build unenjoyable to play.

[Crab Fear.8623]

On 6/30/2022 at 8:14 AM, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

Something happened this week (around 28/29 June 2022).

 

My primary use of GW2 is solo roaming, harvesting to make gold.  Yes, shock, I mostly play solo.  But should that make me a lower class of player?  ArenaNet seems to think so.

 

I used to be able to reach nodes and harvest them, intermittently dodging (Rifle Proficiency\Silent Scope) to refresh the Stealth duration, enabling me to work my way through the (PvE) map without being overly hampered by enemies.  Enemies which if they attack, slow my progress and make the game considerably less enjoyable.  It means taking longer, and I can't afford to allocate more time to playing.  What that means is I'm going to get less done, which ultimately means I will play GW2 less, not more!  All because some {insert your own choice of adjective} at ArenaNet either failed to understand the impact their decision would have on players in my position or, worse, they simply do not care!

 

Yes, get this, I would rather avoid combat all together, and just harvest things.  Should that make me a player and similar players deserving of having their enjoyment degraded?  

So, ArenaNet, when will you restore my enjoyment of the game, please?  (That's if you're even listening... or do you simply not care that your decision could see someone spending less time using your product?)

Oh, and if you (ArenaNet) want players to have a different experience, give them the option of new build choices, rather than breaking what they're familiar with! 

 

Finally, don't make changes to PvE because you wanted to change something in PvP/WvW and were too lazy to keep those changes confined to the environment(s) where they're needed.  There are plenty of circumstances where characters abilities vary depending on whether the player is in PvE, PvP or WvW; you've already set that precedent.

 

The game can not be balanced around someone who wants to avoid all combat and just play farmville within GW2.

What right do you have to your enjoyment at the expense of others?

 

[Svarty.8019]

 

8 hours ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

Thank you for taking the time to put that perspective across.  My counter debunking:

1. So, two experienced players with suitably built characters can take out the guards and lord by hanging around inside an objective?  How did they do that without first the walls first being breached through siege?  Then we have to consider that they've got to wait at least five minutes for the objective to be reclaimed/claimed by another opponent, then another five minutes before they can claim it.  Seriously, that's ten minutes of hanging around, and they shouldn't be rewarded for their patience?  Patience which is seeing their participation counter going down all the time they're not doing something active.
2. Sure, but whilst they're stealthed they can't attack or contribute towards claiming an objective.  No active threat.  Sure, there's a passive threat, but again, it's not without it's own cost.
3. So, they have an ability similar to Mesmers.  In PvE I've used it numerous times to help players get to the end point of a daily jumping puzzle.  In WvW it is akin to having an insider who has opened the door in the secret passage to their their colleagues in.  Oh, yeah, that's the sort of thing spies and thieves  could be expected to do!  The argument against that is, what?

The objection here seems to be that it takes a lot of people to find a Thief.  So?  Comparing to a real life scenario of an infiltrator in a castle, that's what it would take, a lot of manpower (in the gender-neutral sense), if you want to invest in tracking them down.  Instead of actively tracking them down, a few people remain and the Thief's ability is nullified because as soon as they reveal themselves all hell breaks loose and they get squished pronto.  Because remarkably squishy.  Or they run away/hide.  Which again nullifies them as a threat.   Those on Thief-watch could be rotated, if enough people think it warrants the effort.  Somehow, from observed experience, that is unlikely to happen because not enough people actually have that much animosity, or are simply more interested in gaining active benefits from taking objectives.

The argument about the presence of a Thief occupying a dozen or more defenders seems to be routed in 'we think it's unfair that this could happen'.  I'm sorry, did I hear crying from the corner about how that means some people are tied up by a single infiltrator?  Yeah, well, that's what happens.  One of the duties of captured soldiers for example, is to escape.  It is not so much the getting back to your own lines that matters, but the use of resources in tracking and recapturing the escapee.  One individual could tie up hundreds, if not thousands, of people.  In a more offensive similarity, a single defender, suitably prepared, could cause massive disruption to a group of attackers.  It's a very common principle that if you're attacking something, the attacking forces need to outnumber the defenders by three to four to one, and yes, a single effective defender can defend against a considerably larger force.  You're not going to see a Thief succeeding in that in GW2 though.  Personally, as a player, I would get very bored of hanging around like that, all the while my activity in WvW is dropping, and I'm not earning anything out of doing so.  It's more productive to be out with a larger group actually achieving an objective.

No worthwhile argument in favour of the breaking of the build across all three play environments has yet been presented.  There was no need to break it at all in PvE, and simply eliminating the duration bonus from Meld With Shadows in WvW and PvP only would have sufficed.  (Not nerfing it all the way down to one second of stealth from a dodge.  That's so utterly, utterly broken it's ridiculous.)

If ArenaNet wanted to provide players with a different build it should have been an option, not forced and not across all three environments to such an extent that it makes the build unenjoyable to play.

That's an awfully long list of logical fallacies.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Svarty.8019

[Nyel.1843]

On 7/2/2022 at 5:06 PM, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

Indeed.  And it is incredibly debilitating.  I would much prefer to still gain the extra stealth duration than Superspeed, which is useless for farming.

 

Farming should be bottom of the barrel when it comes to balancing. Simply because it does not matter at all and doesn't interact with other players in any way. In PvP balance matters to make fights with other players balanced and in PvE it matters to make your class / spec a competitive choice.

If you gather herbs or ores 1 seconds faster or not is completely irrelevant. In any case. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Nyel.1843

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

17 hours ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

The game can not be balanced around someone who wants to avoid all combat and just play farmville within GW2.

What right do you have to your enjoyment at the expense of others?

 

The build may have enabled certain play styles previously, but was not materially broken, and the fix did not need to be so drastic.  The identified issue was in PvP and WvW where a player could, if they wished, avoid combat by continually stealthing.  As has been pointed out, and not addressed, whilst a player is in stealth they're not contributing towards claiming objectives and as soon as they do they come out of stealth (and get squished, quickly).  The only thing which was needed was the removal of the additional stealth during in PvP and WvW, to achieve the aim of appeasing the players who apparently hated that other players could enjoy playing to the strength of the Thief class.  Anyone who thinks they had a right to see that ability and choice removed from players is part of the problem; claiming a right to have other player's enjoyment degraded.