Just put the Skyscale in the shop [Merged]

[Ashen.2907]

7 minutes ago, bruakumfd.4817 said:

They actually impact gameplay in some way, which is the definition of P2W

No it isn't. Not even close.

[Linken.6345]

20 minutes ago, bruakumfd.4817 said:

I love how so many people probably never actually looked into the gem shop because a lot of items aren't just about making your character look nice. They actually impact gameplay in some way, which is the definition of P2W. Let's be honest. You can buy legendary weapons, which are supposed to have even worse grind than Ascended Weapons. Or do we not acknowledge that because you can download the game for free? (You'll just be bombarded with restrictions until you buy an expac.) 

 

Then again, I haven't seen anybody else mention how Jim Sterling once complained about the mount skins. Yeah, throw money to play a guessing game or shell out just for nobody to comment on it.

 

I also love how many people are saying that because they suffered through a grind, everybody else should do the same. I say this as somebody who bought PoF on sale, and I've been revisiting the content regularly for a few years. I just started because Descent wasn't too hard, and already it feels as though if you don't have the griffin, you're better off not doing it. And while I can't rule out the possibility of keeping at it, it's already not feeling worth it. 

 

Of course, I can't say that 50,000 gems is a reasonable price. I appreciate you trying to be reasonable; as somebody else pointed out that's about $600. I don't know if I don't point out how that's 2-3 paychecks or if I should call it real animal money. I do think something could done about the timegating though because Blizzard managed to pull it off. And I think this was before the merger. 

What in the gemstore impact game play in a way you cant do with ingame resources?

[Ultramex.1506]

Ah jeez, and this thread was rightfully being dead and buried

[DarkSkysz.3521]

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

What in the gemstore impact game play in a way you cant do with ingame resources?

This is a common mistake. Just because you can earn it ingame (maybe months of gameplay to finish a collection) doesnt mean it can't p2w.

Devs can make huge time gates, 'issues' and other things to bother players and then sell magic 'solutions' in their shops.

Gw2 is pay to win when legendaries is the topic. You can buy it directly from TP or pay leech to get them.

Other than that, is does have a good gem/cash shop.

Edited July 16, 2022 by DarkSkysz.3521

[Sarge shot Grif.6450]

On 7/12/2022 at 8:07 PM, DarkSkysz.3521 said:

Anyway... lets be honest. It's an ONE TIME ONLY grind that is totally worth it.

If you had to redo it every X days, then I would understand.

A one time collection that has been made MUCH easier two times over with a timegate reduction and the return-to events basically handing the currencies to you on a silver platter.

[Smoky.5348]

l don't see the sense of relief coming from accomplishment. It's more a sense of, "Thank God l'm done with that grind." I just don't see the fun of it. But, that's the way MMOs are, and ANET decided they want whole unique mounts locked behind the grind. While my friends helped me get a griffon and I got the comparatively cheap siege turtle on my own, neither of those were any fun to accomplish. It's just following someone's directions, waiting for events to start, and buying stuff; boring, frustrating, and arbitrary. And if that's how it is for the easier ones, I guess l'm never getting a skyscale because I realized l don't wanna waste a literal week of my time waiting for metas to start, playing maps l don't enjoy, and buying stuff l'd otherwise have no interest in buying. Screw me for valuing my own time and enjoyment, right?

The absolute, very least the game could do is count event completions silently if you do them before getting the collection. It's completely arbitrary to require something you've already done.

[Linken.6345]

6 minutes ago, DarkSkysz.3521 said:

This is a common mistake. Just because you can earn it ingame (maybe months of gameplay to finish a collection) it is not p2w.

Devs started to apply huge time gates, 'issues' and other things to bother players and then sell magic 'solutions' in their shops.

Gw2 is pay to win when legendaries is the topic. You can buy it directly from TP or pay leech to get them.

Other than that, is does have a good gem store.

No they put time gates in because no developer team can create content faster then the players consume it.

3 minutes ago, Smoky.5348 said:

l don't see the sense of relief coming from accomplishment. It's more a sense of, "Thank God l'm done with that grind." I just don't see the fun of it. But, that's the way MMOs are, and ANET decided they want whole unique mounts locked behind the grind. While my friends helped me get a griffon and I got the comparatively cheap siege turtle on my own, neither of those were any fun to accomplish. It's just following someone's directions, waiting for events to start, and buying stuff; boring, frustrating, and arbitrary. And if that's how it is for the easier ones, I guess l'm never getting a skyscale because I realized l don't wanna waste a literal week of my time waiting for metas to start, playing maps l don't enjoy, and buying stuff l'd otherwise have no interest in buying. Screw me for valuing my own time and enjoyment, right?

The absolute, very least the game could do is count event completions silently if you do them before getting the collection. It's completely arbitrary to require something you've already done.

Well thats your choice and you dont get the skyscale then.

Why they dont count the events silently before you unlock collection might be to get people to revisit maps and do content dont you think?

Edited July 16, 2022 by Linken.6345

[DarkSkysz.3521]

4 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

No they put time gates in because no developer team can create content faster then the players consume it.

More or less. Time gates to block progress in the story is a thing that solves the issue you mentioned.

Time gates in collections and stuff like that is only to insult the player. Even worst when the content is 3 years old...

Edited July 16, 2022 by DarkSkysz.3521

[Linken.6345]

2 minutes ago, DarkSkysz.3521 said:

More or less. Time gates to block progress in the story is a thing that solves the issue you mentioned.

Time gates in collections and stuff like that is only to insult the player. Even worst when the content is 3 years old...

No it still pad out content just because it 3 years old dont matter.

It just to be a real life day reset instead of tyrian day thats 2 hours.

The map resources you get while doing season of the dragon or just harvesting ethernal ice shards instead of doing map hearts for days.

[Smoky.5348]

8 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Why they dont count the events silently before you unlock collection might be to get people to revisit maps and do content dont you think?

No, l do not think that. It's not much of a "revisit" if l'm perched on a ledge, waiting for an event to start or scanning the LFG for something l've already done. Heck, it's not much of a "revisit" if that's what's going on at all.

[DarkSkysz.3521]

1 minute ago, Linken.6345 said:

No it still pad out content just because it 3 years old dont matter.

It just to be a real life day reset instead of tyrian day thats 2 hours.

The map resources you get while doing season of the dragon or just harvesting ethernal ice shards instead of doing map hearts for days.

 

Forget skyscale for ONE second. It is not the only collection in the game...

There are many more with big time gates that you cannot bypass.

[Silent.6137]

1 hour ago, bruakumfd.4817 said:

I love how so many people probably never actually looked into the gem shop because a lot of items aren't just about making your character look nice. They actually impact gameplay in some way, which is the definition of P2W. Let's be honest. You can buy legendary weapons, which are supposed to have even worse grind than Ascended Weapons. Or do we not acknowledge that because you can download the game for free? (You'll just be bombarded with restrictions until you buy an expac.)

Aside from Legendary, which is highly debatable since they have the exact same stats as Ascended (and Ascended are very eary to acquire or stats change), what other items are P2W? What Gemstore items will give you the advantage that similar ingame items do not?

[Labjax.2465]

20 minutes ago, Smoky.5348 said:

l don't see the sense of relief coming from accomplishment. It's more a sense of, "Thank God l'm done with that grind." I just don't see the fun of it. But, that's the way MMOs are, and ANET decided they want whole unique mounts locked behind the grind. While my friends helped me get a griffon and I got the comparatively cheap siege turtle on my own, neither of those were any fun to accomplish. It's just following someone's directions, waiting for events to start, and buying stuff; boring, frustrating, and arbitrary. And if that's how it is for the easier ones, I guess l'm never getting a skyscale because I realized l don't wanna waste a literal week of my time waiting for metas to start, playing maps l don't enjoy, and buying stuff l'd otherwise have no interest in buying. Screw me for valuing my own time and enjoyment, right?

The absolute, very least the game could do is count event completions silently if you do them before getting the collection. It's completely arbitrary to require something you've already done.

From what I've seen, apparently some people really do enjoy this type of content, but yeah, it seems to be a hit or miss thing and for people like us, it's a big miss. Personally, the most pleasant collections for me in the game are the ones where I can pick and choose some cause there are more objectives than amount needed. I hate the ticky tacky do everything exactly stuff.

[Luthan.5236]

Pretty weird to call it "pay to win" then mentioning, huh? They are only a bit more convenient (+ a new skin) - compared to ascended stuff with the same stats. Also most content could be played with just exotics. And in PvP everyone has the same gear. (Though you might want to get the expansions - which are just a 1 time payment ... not the classical pay to win ... more like "buy to play" - for the elite specs.) WvW ... just stay in range and run with the zerg. I played core engineer for a long time ... until I switched to mechanist. Never liked scrapper and holo in PvP/WvW lol. Still fun.

"Pay to win" means that you actually get to do stuff by paying ... that you can't do without paying. In PvP/WvW it would mean a major advantage. Does not exist in PvP (same stats everyone) and in WvW because you just can run with the zerg ... there is not much impact between exotics (cheap usually unless you want special stats combinations) and ascended (still not tooo expensive.)

Fully buying legendaries with real money will be costly. (+ later generations might require some  account bound stuff and you having to craft them. Not sure about the armor - trinkets also want to to do the collections that take some time) Then 50000 gems does not sound too unreasonable anymore - for skyscale.

In PvE a "pay to win" would mean "no raids without proper gear" ... and the proper gear being a grindy legendary (and people being able to buy in in gem store) ... but there are ascended things. And there is more of a problem with the kill proof required and stuff. (They now changed things trying to get more people into raiding to address this.)

All other content in PvE: Possible with exotics and not that hard ... unless we talk about HoT maps and/or certain optional story requirements where you might want to adjust the build - if planning to solo them. I played everything in release order and don't even have all of my stuff at full ascended/legendary yet. (Still running with some exotic armor.)  No problem to complete most stuff so far.

The skyscale is pure convenience. Nothing "win" there. And if you try to at least play the old maps without it ... (which I did since I played in release order - completing all story steps, map completion ... and major achievements) ... you will get a totally different experience. (I remember Sparkyly Fen with that one vista where for the original way you have to move through some caves. This isn't pay to win - to be able to go to the skyscale there ... when people doing directly skyscale might miss some of the map and scenery not even doing it once "as intended".)

(Though with Kaineng I just skyscaled most of it - ignoring the zip lines and teleporters. Cause this came after the skyscale - in release order. Meant to be able to played without it though. Since also targeted at people that only buy EoD.)

And Skyscale is less grind than legendaries - you just don't have to force yourself to do it all at once. It is about exploring. Visiting other places. (That some people might not have visited before.) And doing some stuff in the season 4 maps to get the currency. Instead of just rushing through everything. Then you will get the reward ... and can play faster on the secondary/alt chars. Being able to skip everything directly with the main and get everything .... ruins the purpose. Then people will cry again "where is new content" - and not the veterans but the new players if they log in, do PoF, S4 - getting the skyscale ... and then jump to EoD and claim they have finished everything. (While still having core personal story, HoT. S2, S4 left ... and Icrebrood. And a lof of stuff on the maps and story: Map + story achievements.)

Edit: And the only annoying time gate I remember is the one with the rune stones in Draconis Mons - for the back piece (and collection for Aurora). Forever doing the same stuf for certain days ... is boring. Especially if it takes long. (Renown hearts there.) Just waiting a few days until the next phase - is not really long. Skyscale barely has any time gate if you play normally splitting the stuff on different days.

Only if you hardcore want to enforce it ... doing it the wrong way. (Hint: While you wait you can play the game then you don't notice the waiting. There is other content. Maybe get some of the 250 currency of each map so you don't complain at the last step that you suddenly need them ... and are at 0 still. lol.)

Edited July 16, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Hotride.2187]

7 hours ago, bruakumfd.4817 said:

I love how so many people probably never actually looked into the gem shop because a lot of items aren't just about making your character look nice. They actually impact gameplay in some way, which is the definition of P2W.

Not really p2w, more of "pay for convenience". And the skyscale is about convenience. If anything, the new specs would be p2w but they are tied to an expansion so... not exactly the shop.

Anyway no use actually trying to discuss this topic. A lot of players apparently want to pat themselves on the back that "we are not playing that type of game". Ugh, whatever floats your boat.

[Shiina.4192]

Might as well play a P2W game if you want to buy your way around everything here.

[Dayra.7405]

Why not a skyscale for 10'000 gems. Some play the game, some pay it 🙂.

But better would be a Mount-Rental, call 100 times a mount for 1000 gems. Could be even a free one included in the base game. (Doesn't unlock the masteries)

Edited July 16, 2022 by Dayra.7405

[Zaret.1450]

On 7/2/2022 at 5:24 PM, Squeesidhe.4761 said:

The unlock quests for the Skyscale mount are beyond tedious. Just put the mount unlock in the Gem store and I'll just buy the damned thing. 

would the sir also want the legendary armor set? ad infinitum? a couple legy weapons too?

I agree skyscale is a tedious archievement, its veeerry long, but it also tells a story and its literally the best mount in the game, utility wise, there are things you have to earn by playing the game, if youre just gonna pay with gems everything in the game wheres the fun, the suffering of farming, of triing a jumping puzzle 20 times to make that one jump, and weres the rewarding feeling of archievement when you finaly have it?

Its a game, you have to play to get things, it is a game.

[Gehenna.3625]

8 hours ago, bruakumfd.4817 said:

I love how so many people probably never actually looked into the gem shop because a lot of items aren't just about making your character look nice. They actually impact gameplay in some way, which is the definition of P2W. Let's be honest. You can buy legendary weapons, which are supposed to have even worse grind than Ascended Weapons. Or do we not acknowledge that because you can download the game for free? (You'll just be bombarded with restrictions until you buy an expac.) 

The original meaning of P2W is that you can buy stuff with real money that gives you a power advantage over people who don't pay that money. So really it's about more powerful gear/stats than what you can acquire in game. Legendary weapons have the same stats as ascended gear.

Expansions are not part of that definition because that's part of the game as it expands. There is power creep in expansions usually but even though that is technically pay to win, if you want to be exact, it's not because it's part of the game itself. GW2 is unique also in the sense that expansions don't give you more levels nor more powerful gear. Once you have ascended gear you're at top stats and that will never change.

In SWTOR for example each new expansion comes with a new level cap and new tiers of gear. People also don't call that P2W. I mean you could go as far as to say that buying a game at all is P2W because you can't win in a game without buying it. So that's why the core game and expansions are excluded from the P2W definition as I know it. Don't forget that the core game had to be paid for originally. It wasn't free.

8 hours ago, bruakumfd.4817 said:

Then again, I haven't seen anybody else mention how Jim Sterling once complained about the mount skins. Yeah, throw money to play a guessing game or shell out just for nobody to comment on it.

Skins don't give you a power advantage. P2W is about stats not skins.

8 hours ago, bruakumfd.4817 said:

I also love how many people are saying that because they suffered through a grind, everybody else should do the same. I say this as somebody who bought PoF on sale, and I've been revisiting the content regularly for a few years. I just started because Descent wasn't too hard, and already it feels as though if you don't have the griffin, you're better off not doing it. And while I can't rule out the possibility of keeping at it, it's already not feeling worth it. 

MMOs need to keep you busy for longer than single-player games. That's why there is grind. How much you accept of that, is up to the individual player. But as it stands people want things, but don't want to do what it takes. What they also do is look at the whole of the effort instead of just taking it one step/day at a time. Too much instant gratification makes the game boring. People don't realize that when they're given everything easily, it ultimately will become boring. There need to be longer term goals.

8 hours ago, bruakumfd.4817 said:

Of course, I can't say that 50,000 gems is a reasonable price. I appreciate you trying to be reasonable; as somebody else pointed out that's about $600. I don't know if I don't point out how that's 2-3 paychecks or if I should call it real animal money. I do think something could done about the timegating though because Blizzard managed to pull it off. And I think this was before the merger. 

I think that 8000 gems would be more reasonable. That would put it on the same level of cost for gen1 legendaries (when you buy gold with gems). However, I'm against putting this in the gem store, because it cheapens the game experience. Also note that if they would put it in the gem store, there will be fewer and fewer people in the maps trying to complete tasks for the skyscale. So it'll be even harder to find people to do this with.

WoW is an entirely different MMO. You can't really compare the two. There are very different business models, budgets and development philosophies in play. MMOs do copy stuff from each other but ultimately MMOs shouldn't be too much alike imo. I'm not really a fan of time-gating either but I also realize that GW2 has very limited time gating, which can be annoying at times, but for me it's acceptable. That's me of course but in the end, you can whine here on the forums about something you only have to do once (if you want to do it) or you can get one with it and take it a day at a time. 

[Nekro.3096]

Honestly, I didn't mind the "grind" it took to get the Skyscale. Unlocking flight in WoW the past few expacs... Now that's a grind.

[Smoky.5348]

7 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

MMOs need to keep you busy for longer than single-player games. That's why there is grind. How much you accept of that, is up to the individual player. But as it stands people want things, but don't want to do what it takes. What they also do is look at the whole of the effort instead of just taking it one step/day at a time. Too much instant gratification makes the game boring. People don't realize that when they're given everything easily, it ultimately will become boring. There need to be longer term goals.

The reason someone like me looks at the whole of the effort is because I could spend that time playing aspects of the game l actually do enjoy. Why would l do something l don't enjoy for weeks to obtain something that offers nothing but convenience? Especially when l could get a skyscale transmog for a fraction of the effort? The "prestige reward" of the skyscale mount doesn't feel worth it to me to go out of my way to follow a checklist of directions.

l mean, maaaaybe it'd be better if this stuff had more of a focused UI like story steps instead of just hiding on a specific map and in the cheevos panel? 'Cause that's another facet of my own issues with this: l don't know where to start, and then l don't care to look it up because l don't feel the reward is worth it. Sounds like a me-problem, but that's where I'm coming from as someone who doesn't like the typical MMO grind.

[Labjax.2465]

10 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

MMOs need to keep you busy for longer than single-player games. That's why there is grind. How much you accept of that, is up to the individual player. But as it stands people want things, but don't want to do what it takes. What they also do is look at the whole of the effort instead of just taking it one step/day at a time. Too much instant gratification makes the game boring. People don't realize that when they're given everything easily, it ultimately will become boring. There need to be longer term goals.

People like to drag this reasoning out in defense of standard MMO design, but the fact is, there are single player games that get played by people a heck of a lot and a large part of what makes them work is:

1) sandbox (when non-linear), ex: skyrim

2) replay value (when linear), ex: mass effect

And that's with games that get little to no content updates after launch. MMOs regularly do content updates and yet this excuse is still made as to why they have to stretch everything out into infinity. I don't buy it. I think it's one of those things that's more "this is how we've always done it" than people want to admit, i.e. it's not as necessary as it seems, it's just people are afraid to break the mold and not have it work.

I mean, in some ways, GW2 did break the MMO mold and fans of it regularly praise it for that, yet in the ways it didn't, it gets defended as if it was necessary not to in those areas. Ain't that a contradiction?

[Silent.6137]

If I know that every time a somewhat difficult to achieve item crop up in the game, it'll be put in the Gem Store if a small vocal minority complains, the incentive to do it as the game intended will be lost. One item may not mean much but cumulatively, it'll just add up. It'll just cheapen the game.

Something is too grindy, too restrictive, time-gated, hidden behind Raids/WvW/PvP, requires learning a skill, etc., etc., etc. Let's put them all in the Gem Store or remove all these restrictions. Make them all so vanilla that there's no reason to even do any events. Just show up and press skill 1, or buy the items from the Gem store.

[Gibson.4036]

4 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

 

1) sandbox (when non-linear), ex: skyrim

2) replay value (when linear), ex: mass effect

 

Except those games are known because they were so exceptional. And even Skyrim doesn’t get played a thousand hours by most people.

But MMOs come with an expectation that someone can stay occupied for that kind of time from expansion to expansion.

[Labjax.2465]

3 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Except those games are known because they were so exceptional. And even Skyrim doesn’t get played a thousand hours by most people.

But MMOs come with an expectation that someone can stay occupied for that kind of time from expansion to expansion.

Ok and how many MMOs don't have that big of a playerbase who invest those kind of hours, despite following the same formula as the last one? How many WoW clones that fizzled out or had a niche audience, but that was it.

I don't see how exceptional status is a counterpoint here.