Just put the Skyscale in the shop [Merged]

[AnClar.1304]

These gripey threads that start out by saying...but...but...but you mean I can't just haz a shiny just 'cuz I want it, I'll even pay RL $ for it make me wonder why these folks are even playing the game. Not being nasty here but really, IG accomplishments that require a quest chain, a bit of gold, and mats but reward a distinctive and useful mount are part of what this particular game is about. As has been said about a zillion times, GW2 is not P2W. There is a ton of content that you can get just by playing the game. Skyscale was always meant to be a prestige mount, and a QOL thing. A Skyscale is not required to play, but it does make navigating the maps easier, and is great to look at.

 

I got my Skyscale when it was first introduced, and IMO the quest for it was fun, and the sense of accomplishment I got was well worth the time and effort I spent getting it. I'd love to know how many players and what percentage of players have a Skyscale. I'd bet the numbers would be higher than many think.

 

All this to say, no, I'm not in favor of putting the Skyscale in the gem shop. If you feel the effort is too long, or too difficult, then just play without a Skyscale.

[Labjax.2465]

1 minute ago, AnClar.1304 said:

Skyscale was always meant to be a prestige mount

Would like to know where this is officially stated. I've seen multiple people say this in different places, but never heard it credited to an actual source of intention on Anet's part, so I have to assume it's players projecting their perception of it onto the quest design.

[AnClar.1304]

12 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Would like to know where this is officially stated. I've seen multiple people say this in different places, but never heard it credited to an actual source of intention on Anet's part, so I have to assume it's players projecting their perception of it onto the quest design.

Well, Kate Pfeilschiefter, one of the ANet supervisors on the Skyscale project said in a Guild Chat Twitch broadcast when Skyscale was released, around three years ago, that the Skyscale was in concept, a "heroic" mount, as opposed to the other mounts at the time Skyscale was released. So she did set it apart from the other mounts.

[Labjax.2465]

3 minutes ago, AnClar.1304 said:

Well, Kate Pfeilschiefter, one of the ANet supervisors on the Skyscale project said in a Guild Chat Twitch broadcast when Skyscale was released, around three years ago, that the Skyscale was in concept, a "heroic" mount, as opposed to the other mounts at the time Skyscale was released. So she did set it apart from the other mounts.

Interesting, I will remember that for the future.

[Ashantara.8731]

19 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

I agree with this. It was cool at first,  but I would hate to have to do all that again as a new player when the vast majority of players moved on from that content, which means players doing Skyscale now will have less help than we did back then.

That can indeed be an issue, but not just in GW2 but in any MMO. Who's late to the party often has it a lot harder.

However, the solution cannot be to just give endgame achievements away easily. That would devaluate every endgame reward.

If your work is really draining you that much, you either should go looking for another type of game which doesn't require much time investment or you should change your mindset and accept that it will take you a while to get there.

[DexterousGecko.6328]

10 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

That can indeed be an issue, but not just in GW2 but in any MMO. Who's late to the party often has it a lot harder.

However, the solution cannot be to just give endgame achievements away easily. That would devaluate every endgame reward.

So, is the solution just "well...sorry, this might not be the game for you"? That doesn't seem to be the best way to gain new players. WoW has made it clear they're not looking for new players, I wasn't sure Guild Wars 2 was at that point yet.

Edited July 5, 2022 by DexterousGecko.6328
does it matter?

[Labjax.2465]

14 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

That can indeed be an issue, but not just in GW2 but in any MMO. Who's late to the party often has it a lot harder.

However, the solution cannot be to just give endgame achievements away easily. That would devaluate every endgame reward.

If your work is really draining you that much, you either should go looking for another type of game which doesn't require much time investment or you should change your mindset and accept that it will take you a while to get there.

I think it's safe to say Anet disagrees, as evidenced by stuff like Return To, which makes a component of it easier, provided you hold onto the currency and use it for skyscale.

There is plenty of room inbetween "go away" and "hand it out." And there's plenty of justification for tweaks made inbetween those two. Not only is it about keeping new players around, it's also about the ease of doing something compared to release. Sometimes veteran players get this idea in their head that new players should have to do things "like they did," not realizing that some obstacles for new players are notably harder than they were for them (the veteran players) because of things like population difference. So sometimes it's not even about making things easier, but about making them closer to how they were for people on release.

[Ashantara.8731]

26 minutes ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

So, is the solution just "well...sorry, this might not be the game for you"? That doesn't seem to be the best way to gain new players. WoW has made it clear they're not looking for new players, I wasn't sure Guild Wars 2 was at that point yet.

These types of complaints have been a thing in GW2 only since the new flood of players (e.g., from WoW) arrived. Everyone wants everything "this second", not weeks from now.

GW2, like any other MMO, requires time investment. What I said before: if you can't or don't want to, MMOs are not for you. This is not GW2 specific.

17 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

So sometimes it's not even about making things easier, but about making them closer to how they were for people on release.

Sure, because "back then" no one had to invest time in the game to get their valuable endgame rewards?

I, like 99.9% of the players, got the Skyscale all by myself. There was never nor is there a need for someone to hold your hand... or "just let you buy the darn thing."

Edited July 5, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[Labjax.2465]

4 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

These types of complaints have been a thing in GW2 only since the new flood of players (e.g., from WoW) has arrived. Everyone wants everything "this second", not weeks from now.

GW2, like any other MMO, requires time investment. What I said before: if you can't or don't want to, MMOs are not for you. This is not GW2 specific.

As long as a significant portion of the western MMO community is people who are very busy, but have disposable income, this is just ideology. From a business perspective, MMOs already do and will continue to appeal with ways to speed things up. A lot of contention comes out of where to draw that line, so as not to upset too much the people with lots of free time and the people who in general rightly see it as predatory to offer nickel and diming convenience for money (yes, that last part is ideological on my part).

[bossmitch.8037]

imho they should ease out the collections. 

[Donari.5237]

1 hour ago, bossmitch.8037 said:

imho they should ease out the collections. 

What should they replace it with?  Easing something out means gradually removing it.

I understand that some of the skyscale stuff isn't as easy now without big groups routinely doing the relevant content.  But it's far from impossible.  In my guild we have two people very new to the game -- they just got into it a few months ago -- that have pushed crafting up to ascended, gotten their skyscales, explored the world and story, and rp'd.  The rp is the only part that they needed other guildies involved with.  Didn't matter how much I offered ports to difficult jp ends, assistance finding things, they just chugged through and had a blast doing it.

The only truly tedious parts of the skyscale are the starter parts with going all over Dragon's Fall twice and getting the currency for the saddle.  That currency is now super easy to acquire via the Return achieves, and working on the Returns has many other rewards and achieves along the way as well.

So I feel the skyscale continues to be in a good place, collection wise.  It takes some time, it takes doing a lot of LS4 stuff, and then it takes a little bit of xp'ing up the mastery.  And then every character on your account forever has it available from level 2.   Technically level 1 but you are 2 by the time you leave the tutorial.

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

i find it funny that complaints like these are NEVER reasonable. they always demand it be removed or skipped. 

why not ask for more exciting things to do? do things that make you go WOA FIREWORKS SO PREDDY.

no you go straight to "let us buy or delete"

to be fair tho there is ONE system that can be deleted as it was not made to spark enjoyment but was made to mitigate things for the data management side: research notes.

[Squeesidhe.4761]

Apologies for my nasty comment earlier - it was by design to stir up a bit of rage. I wanted this thread to have a chance to be seen, and after the flames died out, maybe some actual discussion. 

 

Normally I enjoy these kind unlock quest lines. I enjoy going after bite-sized mini-quests. I enjoyed the Griffin unlocks. I've been enjoying certain sub-tasks in the Skyscale unlocks. 

 

I've been struggling to put my finger on exactly what it is that's bugging me about the Skyscale though, and I think it comes down to my suspicion that... Anet, in certain ways, is just not a very good game designer.

 

Don't get me wrong, I still love the game. Sometimes I stop and take in the environments, which still hold up extremely well after a decade. I love the character classes, many of which I find to be quite creative and fun to use. 

 

But I think Anet has some significant, fundamental difficulties with things like mob density, overengineering, basic mechanics, and difficulty tuning.

 

Here's an example I just ran into. I'm doing Skyscale of Water. The last achievement requires completing the Rune-Locked Doors. I'm in the Cold Room with my Necromancer. I have to wait for some of my minions (not all - just a couple) to die on the other side of the door because they didn't come across for some reason. The room is filled from end to end with ice imps. I can kill them easily, but it takes time because there are so many of them. I'm trying to get my bearings and figure out where the runes are. By the time I get to the other end of the room, all the imps have respawned on the first side. 

 

I kill all the imps and am able to summon my griffin, get up to the bridge, and get the first rune. I don't know yet that you can't carry two runes at once, so I go down a level and clear the entire area of blobs. I find the second rune, figure out you have to carry them one at a time - OK, fine. 

 

I go back up to the main hallway, deposit my rune in the right doorway, then return to the cold room.

 

Half my minions are stuck on the other side of the door again, so I wait for them to die, then resummon them. 

 

I don't want to fight all the imps yet again--I've killed dozens and dozens of them by now-- so I run to the end of the room and drop down. But some of my minions are engaged in combat up above, so I'm in a combat state and can't summon a mount to get up to the ledge and retrieve the second rune. 

 

I wait for my minions to kill the imps up above. Meanwhile, I kill the blobs around me. But my combat state doesn't reset. The game thinks I'm still fighting, even though I've put my weapon away and am standing still with all my minions around me and no enemies attacking me. 

 

So I start clearing the room of blobs again, hoping that will reset my combat state, allowing me to summon a mount to get up to the ledge. There are blobs on the ledge though that are attacking, and they're far enough away from the edge that I can't hit them back. The only way to kill them is to get up to the ledge, but Anet didn't engineer a way to just get up there that I can see. You need a mount, or maybe go all the way back to the other side of the room and try to glide. Meanwhile, in this short time, every blob has respawned.

 

I can't get rid of my minions by changing my build, because I'm stuck in the combat state. 

 

Eventually, I kill all the blobs, summon a mount, get up to the ledge, get the rune, go back up a level, dodge the imps, get back out into the hall, find the door again, and deposit the rune. 

 

At every step - every step - I'm besieged by trash mobs. They are easy to kill, and with my Necro build they can barely scratch me, but they're tiring. I'm sick of killing them. They're just... in the way. Was there a better way to navigate this challenge? Maybe, but it was hard to pause and look around when trash mobs were on my kitten every second. 

 

This is just the first step. I'm going to have to do this same thing over and over, until I've collected enough runes to unlock all the doors, and then finally get down to where I can charge my egg and complete the Water collection. 

 

And all that is fine - I don't mind the "work" involved. As I've said, I like focusing on little quests. It's all this mechanical garbage that is ruining the experience. 

 

It's one thing for Anet to have a lengthy laundry list of challenges to complete to unlock something. But when you're also fighting against the game at every step - that's where my annoyance is coming from. 

 

Actually, not true - the OTHER annoyance is Anet's weird design fetish for environmental puzzles. So much of this unlock chain so far has been trying to figure out how to "get up there." Again, that fine when it two or three times, but when its thirty or more  times in a row, then it gets tedious, and I wonder if Anet actually has people on staff to play test this stuff to determine if it's actually fun. Fundamental stuff about breaking up quest flow that, again, seems to elude them. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

46 minutes ago, Squeesidhe.4761 said:

Normally I enjoy these kind unlock quest lines. I enjoy going after bite-sized mini-quests. I enjoyed the Griffin unlocks. I've been enjoying certain sub-tasks in the Skyscale unlocks. 

Of course you've enjoyed it, it's predominantly gold sink, which you could skip with gems -> gold conversion, so something you still want in this thread. Meanwhile the skyscale collection was intentionally made to include more gameplay, even if you're eager to throw your wallet at it.

[Taclism.2406]

As someone who did the whole thing, I wouldnt care if you could purchase it as long as the free option remains available.

I find the argument of "It'd spit in the face of those who earned it legit" so bad and lowkey disparaging to even play. If all you can say about a feature is "I went through XX hours of tedious chores to enjoy it, so you should too", the vast majority that doesn't play multiple hours a day will simply leave for another game that is immediately enjoyable. This is kinda the equivalent of "it gets better after 100h of gameplay"

 

Plenty of people hate jumping puzzles, and the "p2w" options are already there, they're just needlessly convoluted : Pay for sausages to skip jumping puzzles, use teleport to friends on a commander camping at the end of JPs, quartz frags being tradeable but not charged quartz, ... So either gold or gem items, which you can both pay for, or earn ingame.

The few parts you can't "p2w" your way through are the most annoying ones : Find a needle (drake/eggs) in a haystack (99% just follow a guide or add-on because we all consider roaming aimlessly for hours a waste of time), and "challenges" that are more busy work than challenging in any capacity. 
 

The only real downside of allowing the skyscale as a gemstore purchase is then some will cry because they'd need to buy PoF (/ Season 4) for its mastery points, spawning threads like "U greedy anet, I paid for skyscale and now I still gotta pay for LW to enjoy it?!". 

[Linken.6345]

2 minutes ago, Taclism.2406 said:

As someone who did the whole thing, I wouldnt care if you could purchase it as long as the free option remains available.

I find the argument of "It'd spit in the face of those who earned it legit" so bad and lowkey disparaging to even play. If all you can say about a feature is "I went through XX hours of tedious chores to enjoy it, so you should too", the vast majority that doesn't play multiple hours a day will simply leave for another game that is immediately enjoyable. This is kinda the equivalent of "it gets better after 100h of gameplay"

 

Plenty of people hate jumping puzzles, and the "p2w" options are already there, they're just needlessly convoluted : Pay for sausages to skip jumping puzzles, use teleport to friends on a commander camping at the end of JPs, quartz frags being tradeable but not charged quartz, ... So either gold or gem items, which you can both pay for, or earn ingame.

The few parts you can't "p2w" your way through are the most annoying ones : Find a needle (drake/eggs) in a haystack (99% just follow a guide or add-on because we all consider roaming aimlessly for hours a waste of time), and "challenges" that are more busy work than challenging in any capacity. 
 

The only real downside of allowing the skyscale as a gemstore purchase is then some will cry because they'd need to buy PoF (/ Season 4) for its mastery points, spawning threads like "U greedy anet, I paid for skyscale and now I still gotta pay for LW to enjoy it?!". 

Its the Ikea effect you value the things you have to work for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect

[Taclism.2406]

 

16 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

you value the things you have to work for.

 

Well ... value is in the eyes of the beholder.  Its also why I don't care about it becoming a gemstore transaction. If you think cutting game time (that isnt fun in itself, but grind / searching infos outside of the game) is worth XX $, so be it. That's more money for the devs and doesn't affect me as a player.
I bought 250g to get my griffin about 6 weeks after I started playing, I "worked" for skyscale and got it a few months later.
I still infinitely prefer griffin for its speed and "high risk high reward" feel, whereas I mostly use skyscale to get over annoying walls bunny cant climb / skip most daily jumping puzzles combining scale's dash and bond of faith

Edited July 5, 2022 by Taclism.2406

[Izzy.2951]

No.

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

1 hour ago, Taclism.2406 said:

 

 

Well ... value is in the eyes of the beholder.  Its also why I don't care about it becoming a gemstore transaction. If you think cutting game time (that isnt fun in itself, but grind / searching infos outside of the game) is worth XX $, so be it. That's more money for the devs and doesn't affect me as a player.
I bought 250g to get my griffin about 6 weeks after I started playing, I "worked" for skyscale and got it a few months later.
I still infinitely prefer griffin for its speed and "high risk high reward" feel, whereas I mostly use skyscale to get over annoying walls bunny cant climb / skip most daily jumping puzzles combining scale's dash and bond of faith

the beholder is your literal basic animalistic instinct you can not just turn off because you are a human.
and the last sentence is EXACTLY why it should not be a Gemstore item what so ever. you get literally an advantage over another mount, several even. COMBINED 
In fact one might say skyscale is the firebrand of mounts. it does nothing masterfully but it does EVERYTHING. 
Firebrand heals, has all boons on button press, not the best but top 3 dps condi OR power, even if you lean into either aspect more you STILL provide more then enough utility to the group.
And skyscale? does the same. its not the fastest like raptor or beetle but it get around quickly enough as it is not bound to the terrain, it get high enough to latch on a wall and go even higher than springer, it flies and STAYS in the air unlike the griffon which also needs height to even get that fast in flying in the first place. ( heck even riding a griffon itself is a form of ikea effect as mastery of riding it does provide satisfaction).
The only thing it can't do is having a co pilot and firing cannons, which will be buffed eventually since it pointless outside suu won meta. and then the turtle is the healscourge of the mounts.

[Taclism.2406]

1 hour ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

the last sentence is EXACTLY why it should not be a Gemstore item what so ever. you get literally an advantage over another mount, several even. COMBINED 

Literally no, I could do both with griffin aswell, it would just requiere more ellaborate maneuvers.
But I like the firebrand comparison : Both are crutches for laziness / low skill.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Taclism.2406

[Ashen.2907]

20 hours ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

Sir, this is not Guild Wars 2 : Immortal, your wallet gives you no advantage here.

You can buy legendary weapons, via the gemstore, with real money. Not an insurmountable advantage over exotic geared players but an advantage even so.

[Artemis.8034]

Hey lets put everything in the shop,legendary armor sets weapons trinkets too, I mean why play the game when you can buy it right? No how many times does it need to be said, it anet goes the p2w route im done  and im sure many others will be also 

[Linken.6345]

34 minutes ago, Artemis.8034 said:

Hey lets put everything in the shop,legendary armor sets weapons trinkets too, I mean why play the game when you can buy it right? No how many times does it need to be said, it anet goes the p2w route im done  and im sure many others will be also 

Yea I'll add my voice into that pile of people

[Rhingeim.3974]

49 minutes ago, Artemis.8034 said:

Hey lets put everything in the shop,legendary armor sets weapons trinkets too, I mean why play the game when you can buy it right? No how many times does it need to be said, it anet goes the p2w route im done  and im sure many others will be also 

I've actually bought one legendary with real money by gem to gold convert.... 

[Dante.1508]

On 7/3/2022 at 11:36 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

It is a known issue. The issue is: you are not paying attention to how you are supposed to do the mission. Slow down, read what is being told, make use of mechanics presented in the mission. If that doesn't work, read/watch a guide.

 

 

Is that that insane Blish arm quest.. holy hell that was pain in the kitten.

2 hours ago, Rhingeim.3974 said:

I've actually bought one legendary with real money by gem to gold convert.... 

I've bought 5.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Dante.1508