Downstate is being wrongfully blamed.

[solemn.9608]

On 7/5/2022 at 10:03 AM, Karagee.6830 said:

No down state for whoever is fighting outnumbered people. End of. If I kill you despite being greatly outnumbered on the map (which almost invariably means greatly outnumbered in fights also) you should run from the nearest waypoint, not wait for the other million extra players to revive you or rally, maybe off a guard or a critter.

Rip gvgs

Not like we had any to begin with I suppose

[Xenesis.6389]

19 minutes ago, solemn.9608 said:

Rip gvgs

Not like we had any to begin with I suppose

Not like they have arenas for those or anything...

[Dralor.3701]

It’s a win more mechanic, still haven’t seen a good counter argument. It’s super easy to revive someone in a blob and even easier with certain traits/utilities.

[Quench.7091]

2 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

No. Rally hasn't been an issue since it got changed to one per death.

The issue with downstate and ressing is, that it's overpowered in relation to the dmg and sustain of "alive" players/stomping and how well it scales with superior numbers. Rally has nothing to do with all of this.

Fact is - finishing leaves the player in a just as vulnerable position as ressing, except it takes longer, can't be sped up and is easier to counter, since any interruption will cancel the entire progress. Cleaving has it's limits too, unless you have an entire zerg, due to dmg nerfs, high rez speed (that's far higher than any other form of "healing" while requiring zero investment), tankyness of downed bodies (free invuln and full cleanse, huge hp pool) as well as potential counter pressure from both downed (with unnerfed dmg!) and alive enemies.

I think that people that want to specifically address downstate should try to make that case when they make a thread. Whenever I see a thread, it's usually about death rallies. In the game, I also hear complaints about pugs rallying the enemy team and therefore wanting to remove downstate. It is a reoccurring theme that I'm bumping into in relation to the subject.

If people think that resurrecting is too powerful, perhaps there is an alternative to removing downstate as a solution that these people would be happy with? They've added things like a number of resurrectors cap to it, to prevent a player from getting up too quick. There's no cap to the number of people who can damage a downed player, so the people on the damaging end should be at a huge advantage in that alone.

[Dawdler.8521]

52 minutes ago, Quench.7091 said:

If people think that resurrecting is too powerful, perhaps there is an alternative to removing downstate as a solution that these people would be happy with?

Last time we had this discussion after the event, the conclusion was pretty much this:

- People in favor of downstate are willing to meet halfway and compromise on the functionality.
- People that want to remove downstate dont accept anything else.

Any kind of discussion between the two sides is completely one sided. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Last time we had this discussion after the event, the conclusion was pretty much this:

- People in favor of downstate are willing to meet halfway and compromise on the functionality.
- People that want to remove downstate dont accept anything else.

Any kind of discussion between the two sides is completely one sided. 

I mean I never understood why they removed the feature of warclaw to killed downed people. I dont recall anyone ever complaining about that. In fact it was one of the best features for small groups to fight blobs.

[Chaba.5410]

3 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I mean I never understood why they removed the feature of warclaw to killed downed people. I dont recall anyone ever complaining about that. In fact it was one of the best features for small groups to fight blobs.

People were complaining about it.  You just never paid attention?

Large groups would always have a few players hanging in the back on their warclaw ready to instant-stomp downs.  Think of it like having Battle Standard with no cooldown.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[kash.9213]

15 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I mean I never understood why they removed the feature of warclaw to killed downed people. I dont recall anyone ever complaining about that. In fact it was one of the best features for small groups to fight blobs.

I might have been the only one to complain about that warclaw stomp and it was for a stupid reason. Every time I'd almost see an awesome fatality like five derpy warclaws would flop into the scene and ruin the moment. 

It also changed how blobs were approaching each other, for better or worse I guess, but it wasn't a huge deal. The warclaw might finish the downed but everyone else was still there and ready to blast you.

I'll throw my Interrupt Well under revivers or something and maybe get a good pile on started. Might as well go for everyone suddenly scrambling for it instead of just the downed. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by kash.9213

[Salt Mode.3780]

18 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

People were complaining about it.  You just never paid attention?

Large groups would always have a few players hanging in the back on their warclaw ready to instant-stomp downs.  Think of it like having Battle Standard with no cooldown.

I mean regardless large groups can just nail you down with AOEs this was never an issue for large group to finish off downs. However on the other side of things this allowed smaller groups to defend and secure kills on blobs which slowly lowered the enemy numbers for them to finally finish them off.

So I dont understand this mindset of blob v blob when it was always about smaller groups fighting larger groups. Warclaw being able to finish off downstate mostly benefitted smaller groups rather then large blobs. Esp in this meta where revive is rampant. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Zyreva.1078]

3 hours ago, Quench.7091 said:

They've added things like a number of resurrectors cap to it, to prevent a player from getting up too quick. There's no cap to the number of people who can damage a downed player, so the people on the damaging end should be at a huge advantage in that alone.

There is a cap on how many players you can hit tho. And with downstate invuln soaking up a good chunk of dmg and the fast rez speed, multiple players can pretty much instantly pick someone up without much opportunity to punish. Unless you outnumber them ofc. Which just reinforces the point that managing downstate is mostly about numbers. It's hard to take advantage of when outnumbered but carries superior numbers hard (when players shouldn't go down to begin with).

Edited July 7, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Quench.7091]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Last time we had this discussion after the event, the conclusion was pretty much this:

- People in favor of downstate are willing to meet halfway and compromise on the functionality.
- People that want to remove downstate dont accept anything else.

Any kind of discussion between the two sides is completely one sided. 

I'm not even meeting them halfway. If there's a problem with rallying, address rallying. If there's a problem with revivals, address revivals. If one bad apple spoils the bunch, remove the one bad apple. See the dirty bathwater, keep the baby and throw out the bathwater. See the issue, address it. That's why it's kind of surprising to me. It's like there's something they don't like about downstate specifically that gets them fixated on it, but their suggestion isn't as fixated as they are.

[Justine.6351]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I mean I never understood why they removed the feature of warclaw to killed downed people. I dont recall anyone ever complaining about that. In fact it was one of the best features for small groups to fight blobs.

I think when it came out people complained because a large group would just engage with warclaw and wipe out a lot of pugs at the onset of a fight.

[Salt Mode.3780]

6 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

I think when it came out people complained because a large group would just engage with warclaw and wipe out a lot of pugs at the onset of a fight.

I mean if that was the case remove any damage warclaw does on the initial pounce and just allow it to insta kill downs. Like i said blobs are going to do blob stuff regardless of warclaw or not, just smaller groups have NO chance to fight larger blobs.

[Dralor.3701]

I think there are plenty of people willing to meet halfway or explore different options. Coming out and saying the other side isn’t willing to compromise so it isn’t worth trying is not a great way to have a discussion. (Next it will be why are we so defensive? 😂)

[Ronin.4501]

18 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

You mean like abusing server overstacking after relinks have happened?

It would acually be interesting when guilds that want to fight outnumbered against no downstate blobs would populate empty servers.

If it led to guilds transferring to lower-pop servers to take advantage, that would actually be great...but I don't see that happening.  I was thinking more along the lines that you'd have guilds and/or large open-tag squads pulling off a map just to give their side the buff.  It could also likely lead servers back to employing spies in every match-up trying to determine which server/map might have the ON buff so they could avoid fighting on those maps and losing their downstate.

 

If we're going to remove downstate (which I'm 100% on board with), just do for it everyone.

[Quench.7091]

2 hours ago, Dralor.3701 said:

I think there are plenty of people willing to meet halfway or explore different options. Coming out and saying the other side isn’t willing to compromise so it isn’t worth trying is not a great way to have a discussion. (Next it will be why are we so defensive? 😂)

If a person's course of action does not reflect their stated motivations, it is usually a sign that something else is up. The best way to find if there's something strange going on is to make a beeline towards their goal. If they try to hook around to another destination not along the beeline, then that is probably another one of their goals. The only thing I feel Dawdler is wrong with is him stating that I'm meeting them halfway. I'm meeting them at their destination. They want to go beyond their destination. Something else is up.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Quench.7091

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, Quench.7091 said:

The only thing I feel Dawdler is wrong with is him stating that I'm meeting them halfway. I'm meeting them at their destination. They want to go beyond their destination. Something else is up.

No, what I'm saying is that its a straight track and the only destination is the removal of downstate. Are you saying you want to remove downstate?

Edited July 7, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Quench.7091]

1 minute ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

No, what I'm saying is that its a straight track and the only destination is the removal of downstate. Are you saying you want to remove downstate?

Their stated goals are to address revivals among other things. Their route is to plow through downstate. I beeline towards addressing their issues, yet they're not happy. Seems like their goals aren't what they've stated they are and that the route they are taking is the goal.

[Dawdler.8521]

3 minutes ago, Quench.7091 said:

Their stated goals are to address revivals among other things. 

Haha no thats what I'm saying. Their goal is to remove downstate, period.

You are preaching to your OWN side of the argument, those willing to compromise.

[Quench.7091]

37 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Haha no thats what I'm saying. Their goal is to remove downstate, period.

You are preaching to your OWN side of the argument, those willing to compromise.

Yeah, I'm saying that I didn't extend an olive branch, I gave them the tree. Turns out they didn't want the tree, they wanted the deed to the land that the tree was upon. I don't think they're being honest with their end goals. How can the integrity of the discussion that Dralor wants to preserve be kept when people are omitting their own intentions in favor of things that sound more noble? It feels like the integrity has been breached long before this thread even started.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Quench.7091

[Dralor.3701]

I mean saying stuff like the above is really not helping. 
I never said anything about straight removal, there are plenty of nobs for them to turn to adjust how downstate and revives function in WvW/PvP. I’m not getting paid to design their game for them but I’d be happy to see what creative ways they can tweak it.

Going from a mechanic being implemented to straight removal is generally not a good idea, gradual adjustments would be the way to go.

[Flow.2947]

i agree it is being wrongfully blamed. Ressing a downed person can be when executed wrong the worst punishment for a group. 

because you give your opponent the ability to free cast. 

ppl forget about the power of poison in wvw. it is stopping a signet a banner... so many others a well. (but who want to play some condis in wvw 🤮)

Just think of how many resources you need to get a downed person mid combat up.

 

I find the idea of the outnumbered buff someone wrote interesting that you finish ppl of in an instance when you have that buff but puhh that will lead to soo many more snipers.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Flow.2947

[Quench.7091]

4 minutes ago, Dralor.3701 said:

I mean saying stuff like the above is really not helping. 
I never said anything about straight removal, there are plenty of nobs for them to turn to adjust how downstate and revives function in WvW/PvP. I’m not getting paid to design their game for them but I’d be happy to see what creative ways they can tweak it.

Going from a mechanic being implemented to straight removal is generally not a good idea, gradual adjustments would be the way to go.

You seem to have an open-minded approach to the subject. I take no issue with that.

It was a good idea to test no downstate, because now we know the results of such an approach. Removing 2nd chances does up the stakes! There's nothing wrong with a player that wants something like that. There are pacing issues and revival abilities that need to be addressed with such a change if something good were to come of it, but it is one approach that they could take. I hope nobody takes me as an extremists towards one position. I've played FPS games with instant kill headshots and MMORPGs with in combat battle resurrections for dead players. It's really a matter of wanting good game design and being direct with each other.

[Labjax.2465]

58 minutes ago, Flow.2947 said:

i agree it is being wrongfully blamed. Ressing a downed person can be when executed wrong be the worst punishment for a group. 

because you give your opponent the ability to free cast. 

ppl forget about the power of poison in wvw. it is stopping a signet a banner... so many others a well. (but who want to play some condis in wvw 🤮)

Just think of how many resources you need to get a downed person mid combat up.

 

I find the idea of the outnumbered buff someone wrote interesting that you finish ppl of in an instance when you have that buff but puhh that will lead to soo many more snipers.

Yeah, trying to rez someone mindlessly can lead to you getting downed too, if you aren't careful. Things always look easier from the other end.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

there was no "positive change". the main issue is that downstate has far too much HP. all sources of damage outside of condi got gutted by a ton, so it plainly takes zergbuilds too long to cleave, while on the cheesy/smallscale side it didn't really impact anything, obviously