Returning player. What is up with HoT exploring?

[Einsof.1457]

11 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Obviously yes. But it is horrible design. Most masteries feel like an artificial problem was created so the mastery can be the solution. Especially frustrating when people on mounts ignore path entirely different over the map anyway. Same with the POF masteries getting easier to some place with full powered springer is nice. Having a mastery Point gated on a Pillar that is impossible to reach otherwise feels like kitten.

So don't do the masteries.

Players: we want horizontal progression systems 

Anet: gives horizontal progression 

Players: surprised Pikachu

Edited July 11, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Labjax.2465]

FWIW, you def aren't the only one to be bothered by this. It does get more enjoyable if you're gonna play alts at all since you only have to do the masteries once, but that kinda feels like saying "it gets better after the 1st 100 hours" trope.

My recommendation would be if you have PoF and aren't super concerned about doing the story in order, go get Raptor and Springer mount from PoF and that may help you explore HoT in a way that bypasses some of the restrictions.

HoT in general isn't the easiest thing to explore without a mount even with the HoT masteries, on account of all the spammy mobs that want to end you on sight and are deeply serious about making it happen. I think it's generally agreed upon that it's the hardest expansion zones in the game. PoF and EoD are much more forgiving by comparison. So in terms of difficulty too, you might enjoy doing the others first (again, if you aren't bothered about doing things out of order). Keep in mind PoF does have a little bit of blocking you off of its own based on the mount you have, but it becomes a non-issue fairly quickly once you have Raptor and Springer, and after that Skimmer and Jackal come pretty easily as well.

[voltaicbore.8012]

9 hours ago, Piccolo.7296 said:

Thank goodness that GW2 is a B2P game and I can stop playing and pick it back up whenever.

I mean this wholeheartedly, with zero malice, snark, or salt - this statement right here is The Truth, and it is the best response to your current displeasure. If the game isn't fun, there's really no sense in trying to force fun out of it. Take a break.

I myself took a few long breaks from the game over a period of 6 years, and I came back each time appreciating the game's strengths a bit more, and some things that previously bothered me no longer stung as badly. Of course something like OCD doesn't just go away with time, but perhaps your currently low tolerance for the mastery gating might be somewhat blunted after a break.

Edited July 12, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[JayHog.3280]

15 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

Fortunately the masteries required for the story and to map complete are very easy to get. You can even bypass needing some of the ones for map completions if you have mounts. 

At least a chunk, but rest needs them. You can't kitten like the poison covered mastery. I've tried with Jackal. If you try to do it without the mastery, it stuns you, preventing you from getting it.

[AIex.4105]

2 minutes ago, JayHog.3280 said:

At least a chunk, but rest needs them. You can't kitten like the poison covered mastery. I've tried with Jackal. If you try to do it without the mastery, it stuns you, preventing you from getting it.

yup, you need waste mastery points only to get 1 mastery point, Arenanet logic

[JayHog.3280]

3 minutes ago, AIex.4105 said:

yup, you need waste mastery points only to get 1 mastery point, Arenanet logic

It's more than that, but yeah, they won't let you cheese things. Frustrating.

[Labjax.2465]

Oh, I thought of another thing you could do IF you have LW season 3 and you're missing mastery points (assuming XP itself isn't a big issue). You could skip ahead to some LW3 maps and get mastery points from there. If I remember right, some of them are relatively easy to get and you can spend them on the HoT masteries rather than the LW3 masteries (which you can fill out later).

[mythical.6315]

3 hours ago, JayHog.3280 said:

At least a chunk, but rest needs them. You can't kitten like the poison covered mastery. I've tried with Jackal. If you try to do it without the mastery, it stuns you, preventing you from getting it.

Hence why I said ‘some’. 

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

On 7/10/2022 at 7:32 PM, Piccolo.7296 said:

I'm someone that when I visit a new map, I want to explore it and 100% the map before I continue with the story. The core GW2 map, Tyria, I was easily able to do that. So why are the HoT maps making it extremely difficult to do this? I was able to 100% the first map, but the second map I'm hit with "Can't go here. You need this or that mastery" WTF? Just let me explore the full map without kittenblocking me with required masteries. I don't know why this irritates me, but I guess it does.

That's how it's supposed to work. You just shipwrecked into hostile jungle where 50% of it is the jungle dragon himself (huge vines) and his minions. Were you expecting drinks and sandy beaches?

You're supposed to feel gated and overwhelemed. And mastery system is there to lift you up from being at the bottom of the food chain to apex predator. But not before you pay the price in sweat, tears and lotsa downstates.

Oh, and you're just adorable with that 100% map completion.
Forget all you knew from core Tyria. You can fill the map completion bar to 100% sure.
But if you think you've seen or experienced 100% of a HoT map after doing that.... well, this jungle is bigger than you think.
Far bigger..

[Kadsik.9281]

We are only asked to the masteries one time. Is it really that difficult?

[Redfeather.6401]

😢 I liked how heart of thorns maps couldn't all be explored the first visit. Felt like I had to remember areas to come back to. Was fun.

[Ashen.2907]

On 7/10/2022 at 3:42 PM, Gibson.4036 said:

And it’s in their best interest to keep people playing even if they don’t spend money. Non-paying players help the game feel populated, which is something the paying players expect.

This.

In a free to play game, if you are not paying you are content.

[HowlKamui.5120]

On 7/11/2022 at 9:39 PM, Albi.7250 said:

Obviously yes. But it is horrible design. Most masteries feel like an artificial problem was created so the mastery can be the solution. Especially frustrating when people on mounts ignore path entirely different over the map anyway. Same with the POF masteries getting easier to some place with full powered springer is nice. Having a mastery Point gated on a Pillar that is impossible to reach otherwise feels like kitten.

I disagree. I like metroidvania games where you run into areas that you cant access yet, so you put a pin on it, and come back when you unlock new stuff.

There's something about the mystery of "what's past this door? I have to come back later"  or "I'll get that treasure next time" that's really appealing to me. If maps were just "flat" and fully accessible at the start, it gets boring fast for me.

Which is why HoT is still the best expansion, at least in terms of exploring the maps, for me. The expansion begins with us losing and being stranded in the enemy's territory. The map isn't ours to explore just yet, and we have to fight for it. Getting "stronger" because of these masteries is pretty cool for a horizontal progression game.

I understand your frustration though. I also have a friend who came from base game, and quit when he couldnt solo explore the jungle. To be fair, it IS such a jarring change from base game, and yeah not everyone signed up for it, since GW2 is a pretty casual mmo. My recommendation for you is to join hero point trains. They happen often (until now), and following the group unlocks most if not all of they waypoints of a map, which would make it easier for you to explore once you're on your own again.

Edited July 13, 2022 by HowlKamui.5120

[Voyant.1327]

Its a divisive topic but yeah the pointless roadblocks feel punishing to new or returning players.

We can all agree it wasn't fun, but that doesn't seem to be the priority. There's a lot of great game locked behind these brickwall experiences that unfortunately pushes players away.

If this game got rid of the grind for all time system though, it'd fall apart. They completely built everything on this principle. I think this was the biggest turn off to the game for a lot of people. Instead of gameplay being rewarding initially towards harder content its suffer thru grindy content first to then have fun later.

Seen worse though, just unfortunate design choices. 

[Dante.1508]

On 7/11/2022 at 3:32 AM, Piccolo.7296 said:

I'm someone that when I visit a new map, I want to explore it and 100% the map before I continue with the story. The core GW2 map, Tyria, I was easily able to do that. So why are the HoT maps making it extremely difficult to do this? I was able to 100% the first map, but the second map I'm hit with "Can't go here. You need this or that mastery" WTF? Just let me explore the full map without kittenblocking me with required masteries. I don't know why this irritates me, but I guess it does.

Sorry mate its terrible design its always been terrible design.. Its something you will come to understand.. Ignore hot until you get most of your mounts and the glider upgrades (which sadly need Hot to master) even with all that its still a most horrible place to play in..

On 7/13/2022 at 6:44 AM, Kadsik.9281 said:

We are only asked to the masteries one time. Is it really that difficult?

Tedious.. frustrating and annoying. Not difficult till the real last few..

On 7/12/2022 at 9:38 AM, Einsof.1457 said:

So don't do the masteries.

Players: we want horizontal progression systems 

Anet: gives horizontal progression 

Players: surprised Pikachu

I would have preferred vertical over that grind..

Edited July 14, 2022 by Dante.1508

[mythical.6315]

On 7/11/2022 at 5:39 AM, Albi.7250 said:

Most masteries feel like an artificial problem was created so the mastery can be the solution.

That's how it's been in RPG games since like forever.

[Bladestrom.6425]

10 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

That's how it's been in RPG games since like forever.

Exactly, except its not a problem ofc, it is the essence of RPG, and GW2 is the best implementation of it in any AAA MMORPG.  In a nutshell GW2 gives short term goals, medium term goals and long term goals, none of which involve power creep.  Masteries are a mix of all 3 objective types, and  often give a meaningful reward, depending on what the player is interested in. 

 

In HOT maps it's an explorers dream, you see an area you cannot reach, and it grabs your curiosity (as with OP) , so in doing so Anet has given a goal you are interested in and a progression track you can follow with a reward that is meaningful to you.  If you could just instantly get to the area then it would just be another dull bit of map you pass through,

 

 

[Bladestrom.6425]

12 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

I would have preferred vertical over that grind..

 

Careful what you ask for:

Horizontal - do what you like when you like.  Many layered objectives and reward systems, no time limit on achieving goals.  Grinding is optional and relative, you can often gather resource A while targeting objective B, instead of targeting resource A Exclusively.

Vertical - grind for ever bigger numbers, to be able to kill things with ever bigger HP pools and so on forever.  If you don't Grind you fall beyond the power curve.  So you MUST grind efficiently. 

'Grind' is a subjective assessment of a repeat activity.  Vertical progression demands repeat grinding or you become relatively weak. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Labjax.2465]

24 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 

Careful what you ask for:

Horizontal - do what you like when you like.  Many layered objectives and reward systems, no time limit on achieving goals.  Grinding is optional and relative, you can often gather resource A while targeting objective B, instead of targeting resource A Exclusively.

Vertical - grind for ever bigger numbers, to be able to kill things with ever bigger HP pools and so on forever.  If you don't Grind you fall beyond the power curve.  So you MUST grind efficiently. 

'Grind' is a subjective assessment of a repeat activity.  Vertical progression demands repeat grinding or you become relatively weak. 

Most MMOs are vertical, saying careful what you ask for is pretty odd here, considering anyone who has played any MMO beyond this one prob has experienced vertical progression and would know what they are asking for.

[Linken.6345]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Most MMOs are vertical, saying careful what you ask for is pretty odd here, considering anyone who has played any MMO beyond this one prob has experienced vertical progression and would know what they are asking for.

Me and I think alot of other people are here because its not vertical progression game.

[Dante.1508]

On 7/14/2022 at 11:36 PM, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 

Careful what you ask for:

Horizontal - do what you like when you like.  Many layered objectives and reward systems, no time limit on achieving goals.  Grinding is optional and relative, you can often gather resource A while targeting objective B, instead of targeting resource A Exclusively.

Vertical - grind for ever bigger numbers, to be able to kill things with ever bigger HP pools and so on forever.  If you don't Grind you fall beyond the power curve.  So you MUST grind efficiently. 

'Grind' is a subjective assessment of a repeat activity.  Vertical progression demands repeat grinding or you become relatively weak. 

At least in vertical grind you somewhat feel like you've achieved something.. This is just boring after level 80.

[SlayerXX.7138]

On 7/13/2022 at 9:31 AM, HowlKamui.5120 said:

I disagree. I like metroidvania games where you run into areas that you cant access yet, so you put a pin on it, and come back when you unlock new stuff.

Yeah if you play like that it is probably fine. But mmorpg are way more Sandboxy in nature, with a wider expectation from the player base. I for example don't like most story missions so instead of "i come back later" it is "i have to do hours of content i don't like to get there" which is fine if it is something end gamey or optional like map completion, but it does really sting if it is Masteries or HPs. The nature of being a multiplayer games doesn't help. If you get blocked by snorlax in a Pokémon game it is fine. It would be less fine when pokemonlover69 just bunny hops over it while your stand there watching him.

On 7/14/2022 at 4:32 AM, mythical.6315 said:

That's how it's been in RPG games since like forever.

Not all. But when they do they generally feed into themselves. Exploration into Exploration. Story into Story. Even if they don't they are more focused. Something like Zelda has a cross between story and exploration but that is all the game is. Not like GW 2 where you have multitude of Reason to play the game and story my be none of them. Or you want to do just story and the big cool events.

That is way people are so split depending how you play that system can range from good to slightly annoying to down right evil.

[ASP.8093]

On 7/10/2022 at 1:32 PM, Piccolo.7296 said:

I'm someone that when I visit a new map, I want to explore it and 100% the map before I continue with the story. The core GW2 map, Tyria, I was easily able to do that. So why are the HoT maps making it extremely difficult to do this? I was able to 100% the first map, but the second map I'm hit with "Can't go here. You need this or that mastery" WTF? Just let me explore the full map without kittenblocking me with required masteries. I don't know why this irritates me, but I guess it does.

HoT is designed to be less of a "straight through, done forever" experience. The maps are big and some of them are _COMPLEX_, and you benefit greatly from unlocking the masteries, sticking around for meta events, &c.

 

If you find that you are starting to hate the maps, just focus on getting through the story — you can revisit HoT later with mounts to help you round out map completion faster.

[Bladestrom.6425]

2 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

At least in vertical grind you somewhat feel like you've achieved something.. This is just boring after level 80.

Which simply means GW is the wrong game for you, you think bigger numbers are rewarding, I prefer long term goals and being able to plan my own progression, and not have to run on a hamster wheel every day to avoid being beaten in a BG by someone who simply has bigger numbers.

 

 Horses for courses however, its healthy for the MMORPG genre to have both.  I am sure you will agree it would be poor consumer choice  if every single mmorpg was vertical (or vice versa)  If you want vertical - go WOW etc, if you want horizontal then GW2/Eve etc.

Edited July 16, 2022 by vesica tempestas.1563

[HowlKamui.5120]

On 7/16/2022 at 2:39 PM, Albi.7250 said:

Yeah if you play like that it is probably fine. But mmorpg are way more Sandboxy in nature, with a wider expectation from the player base. I for example don't like most story missions so instead of "i come back later" it is "i have to do hours of content i don't like to get there" which is fine if it is something end gamey or optional like map completion, but it does really sting if it is Masteries or HPs. The nature of being a multiplayer games doesn't help. If you get blocked by snorlax in a Pokémon game it is fine. It would be less fine when pokemonlover69 just bunny hops over it while your stand there watching him.

 

 

Yeah I get what you're saying. But I guess that's one of the reasons why GW2 is the only MMORPG where I did the PVE outside instanced content extensively. In the other MMOs I play, open-world content is pretty boring in that there's nothing to do and it's usually too easy.  

But here in GW2, I found myself actively doing DLC map completion (not base game though, core tyria is boring AF), and looking for achievements to do.