Untamed - Fervent Force nerf suggestion

[anduriell.6280]

5 hours ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

Except the game isn’t balanced and not all classes are welcome in all content. 

that happens only with the favorites: scrapper has the unique effect to convert  conditions. Anet should remove that too.

Ranger seems the only profession in the game where they need the “trade offs” and “no unique effects” in the game, such a joke of design and balance team.

Druid cannot target the team with the staff, a weapon which main feature is to heal. Meanwhile the new thief elite has not problems giving that. Such a disgraceful joke

but this happens because the devs despise the ranger class and because on their ignorance they ask for feedback from other oblivious of the profession which they also hate. 
 

even if Anet wants to have the rest of the classes to have no unique effects, ranger has to be the exception. right now  because of the pet mechanic and ranger getting less  on the boons duration, condition duration and damage output there is not a reason to bring any rangers.

Why tempest get to have 7s of alacrity on a 6s cd skill with very little investment, while the Druid has to put everything on it to get a miserable 4s applications on a 20s cd skill.

Such a garbage of balance and design.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by anduriell.6280

[Rysdude.3824]

17 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

that happens only with the favorites: scrapper has the unique effect to convert  conditions. Anet should remove that too.

Such a garbage of balance and design.

 

 

Agreed.  Nerf the unique necro boon corruption also! It goes against their vision of unity, equality and justice for all.

[Whiskers.7346]

Do not nerf Fervent Force. Buff Ferocious Symbiosis if Anet wants a more "accessible" build. Keep Fervent Force for people who find it fun.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

7 hours ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

Maybe we have 2 differing opinions but I'd rather a game that is balanced where all classes are welcome to all content in the game.

The untamed change is like if only one class had alacrity, quickness, might, fury, etc. Nobody wants to feel forced to play a specific class (although people do still demand specific classes, which is due to effectiveness and not uniqueness).

 

What content is Untamed welcomed in currently?

It surely isn't organized PvE (open world metas or endgame) because the pet nets you a loss of DPS and does all kinds of other unwelcome things in terms of aggro, etc.  It surely isn't WvW for same reasons.  Maybe it has a niche use in sPvP if the player is highly skilled? 

Also, shared FF is no different than shared OWP, except shared FF actually would take CC'ing something (i.e. effort).  The share duration obviously wouldn't be 100%, so allies would get maybe 1-2s CD on their skills per ranger CC, as it doesn't even apply to the pet CC's.  

Finally, let's not forget the topic is started by someone with 7 posts that has contributed nothing to it since, and most likely has never played ranger....

[Abyssisis.3971]

8 hours ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

Like I said we have 2 differing opinions. Though yours seems defeatist.

I’m a realist. I see things for what they are.

[BumboJumbo.1308]

45 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

What content is Untamed welcomed in currently?

It surely isn't organized PvE (open world metas or endgame) because the pet nets you a loss of DPS and does all kinds of other unwelcome things in terms of aggro, etc.  It surely isn't WvW for same reasons.  Maybe it has a niche use in sPvP if the player is highly skilled? 

Also, shared FF is no different than shared OWP, except shared FF actually would take CC'ing something (i.e. effort).  The share duration obviously wouldn't be 100%, so allies would get maybe 1-2s CD on their skills per ranger CC, as it doesn't even apply to the pet CC's.  

Finally, let's not forget the topic is started by someone with 7 posts that has contributed nothing to it since, and most likely has never played ranger....

Untamed is welcome in instanced content like strikes and raids because of its utility, cc, boon application, and damage.

It is welcome in pvp and wvw roaming.

However, untamed isn't welcome in wvw zergs (even though untamed was advertised as a frontline/team fighter wvw elite spec).

"Also, shared FF is no different than shared OWP, except shared FF actually would take CC'ing something (i.e. effort)."

Sure but I'd rather not have a trait that is like chronomancer back in heart of thorns where it was the only one that could apply alacrity.  Even if the internal cooldown changed what would the point of the fervant force cooldown share functionality serve? Flavour? Class identity? 

[MajinSoul.4512]

I really don't see the need for a Fervent Force nerf. It's the one thing that makes Untamed actually stand out since the Unleash mechanic is incredibly lackluster. Nerf Fervent Force and you basically have like a second core ranger spec

[Abyssisis.3971]

7 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

CCing cools down ALL of your skills. How is that not OP? It's alacrity, but better.

I know what it does… 🤦‍♂️ What game mode are you using it in? Pve?

[BumboJumbo.1308]

5 minutes ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

I’m a realist. I see things for what they are.

I don't see how submitting to the idea that because other classes are 'mandatory' means that untamed has to be changed to become actually mandatory like a chronomancer back in heart of thorns.

"Except the game isn’t balanced and not all classes are welcome in all content."

So at that point why even try to achieve balance? Because it's never going to be possible?

[Abyssisis.3971]

1 minute ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

I don't see how submitting to the idea that because other classes are 'mandatory' means that untamed has to be changed to become actually mandatory like a chronomancer back in heart of thorns.

"Except the game isn’t balanced and not all classes are welcome in all content."

So at that point why even try to achieve balance? Because it's never going to be possible?

I don’t think changing FF to group share is a good idea, I just don’t think it’s a bad idea and anything switching up the current meta can’t be all that bad.

You don’t achieve balance by having certain classes standing over the rest for years at a time.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

25 minutes ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

Untamed is welcome in instanced content like strikes and raids because of its utility, cc, boon application, and damage.

It is welcome in pvp and wvw roaming.

However, untamed isn't welcome in wvw zergs (even though untamed was advertised as a frontline/team fighter wvw elite spec).

"Also, shared FF is no different than shared OWP, except shared FF actually would take CC'ing something (i.e. effort)."

Sure but I'd rather not have a trait that is like chronomancer back in heart of thorns where it was the only one that could apply alacrity.  Even if the internal cooldown changed what would the point of the fervant force cooldown share functionality serve? Flavour? Class identity? 

 

There's like one snowcrow's build that includes untamed because of Fervent Force and Alacrity--but the hardest strike clear was done using a soulbeast.  So that tells me in general, you're going to be asked to run Soulbeast over anything for high end content (and it has been my personal experience too). 

I've seen maybe two untamed in WvW roaming.  You may be right about PvP as I don't play that mode.

And ya I think FF would become class identity of sorts, very much like Chrono was.  If they move away from that to 'everyone can do everything' people will continue taking the Guard/Nec/Engi because they were built to be supporting classes in the first place.

[BumboJumbo.1308]

1 minute ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

There's like one snowcrow's build that includes untamed because of Fervent Force and Alacrity--but the hardest strike clear was done using a soulbeast.  So that tells me in general, you're going to be asked to run Soulbeast over anything for high end content (and it has been my personal experience too). 

I've seen maybe two untamed in WvW roaming.  You may be right about PvP as I don't play that mode.

And ya I think FF would become class identity of sorts, very much like Chrono was.  If they move away from that to 'everyone can do everything' people will continue taking the Guard/Nec/Engi because they were built to be supporting classes in the first place.

Fair point

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

18 minutes ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

I know what it does… 🤦‍♂️ What game mode are you using it in? Pve?

The only reason why it doesn't make Untamed OP is because of how bad Untamed is. The trait is OP, and it makes Untamed viable. Somehow. If something with a higher value cooldown, or better traits to mesh with it, or basically anything that hits harder than an Untamed, it would easily make them broken OP.

[BumboJumbo.1308]

14 minutes ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

I don’t think changing FF to group share is a good idea, I just don’t think it’s a bad idea and anything switching up the current meta can’t be all that bad.

You don’t achieve balance by having certain classes standing over the rest for years at a time.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. In one hand you don't think the fervant force share is a good idea but you also think it's not a bad idea? Could you clarify this?

Maybe you mean that the idea of changing up the meta isn't bad, so you want to see skills/traits updated to change the meta. But the new unique fervant force ally share doesn't seem to be a good idea in changing the meta. Is that right?

[Abyssisis.3971]

10 minutes ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

The only reason why it doesn't make Untamed OP is because of how bad Untamed is. The trait is OP, and it makes Untamed viable. Somehow. If something with a higher value cooldown, or better traits to mesh with it, or basically anything that hits harder than an Untamed, it would easily make them broken OP.

I’m just not seeing it as being OPed, strong yes, but not to the point where I have to take it to be viable, but then again, I don’t pve with untamed because it’s just easier to use soulbeast or guardian.

[Abyssisis.3971]

19 minutes ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. In one hand you don't think the fervant force share is a good idea but you also think it's not a bad idea? Could you clarify this?

Maybe you mean that the idea of changing up the meta isn't bad, so you want to see skills/traits updated to change the meta. But the new unique fervant force ally share doesn't seem to be a good idea in changing the meta. Is that right?

I don’t think it’s a good suggestion, but if it breaks up the anet fav class meta, then it’s not a bad idea.

In the grand scheme of things, even changing it, similar to the suggestion to change stances to full ally share won’t really change the meta because ranger just doesn’t bring the tools that other classes can as easily and without the drawbacks. Basically it’s just shaving down the edges of a square to fit in a circle slot.

[anduriell.6280]

35 minutes ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

I don’t think it’s a good suggestion, but if it breaks up the anet fav class meta, then it’s not a bad idea.

In the grand scheme of things, even changing it, similar to the suggestion to change stances to full ally share won’t really change the meta because ranger just doesn’t bring the tools that other classes can as easily and without the drawbacks. Basically it’s just shaving down the edges of a square to fit in a circle slot.

I am neither saying it is the best solution to the unplayed, it is just the easiest one to achieve and not as broken as some main mechanist and guardians in this thread are saying it is.

in WvW and pvp the cd reduction is only 2 seconds, so having in mind you can get up to 1 cc per weapon ( hammer has 2) , additionally CC does 0 damage and if the ranger wants more CC it has to invest in not so useful utilities like spike trap or the storm spirit I think is a good solution.

in PvE with 4 seconds CD Is still fine as a 100% alacrity uptime tempest will reduce more than that in high cd skills.

but peeps here must think the ranger must have a barrage of ccs to their disposal.

Definitely fervent force can use the buff of sharing the CD reduction with friendlies, and ranger definitely needs their unique buffs back unless Anet decides to bring the damage, boon and condi duration to the same level of other classes.

As a side note, isn’t unplayed the lowest dps in raids? And brings 0 utility to the group?

[enkeny.6937]

FF can be nerf simply by lover reduction, like pvp version.
but for cc, we don't have too many instant cc as utility
I mean: warhorn, short bow, great sword 5, hammer 5, 3. 
axe 4 is delayed, 
spike trap is delayed 
storm spirit is delayed
exploding spores is delayed, AND it has TINY area for cc...

Still works of course, but make a gap between high apm playes and low apm playesr. (and I have slow hands, so I will loose dps 😞 )

[xXxOrcaxXx.9328]

I guess now is a good time to bring this thread back to the forefront. If Fervent Force won't be changed to be a completely different trait, I think my suggestion would be a good tradeoff.

[Soilder.3607]

11 hours ago, xXxOrcaxXx.9328 said:

I guess now is a good time to bring this thread back to the forefront. If Fervent Force won't be changed to be a completely different trait, I think my suggestion would be a good tradeoff.

When you had first posted this thread I agreed with you that Fervent Force would likely be the target of a future nerf provided that Untamed received significant buffs.

 

It seems that our intuition has proven true now that Arenanet, during the Nov 29th balance stream, stated they would be looking into nerfing Fervent Force after they get Untamed into a better state.

 

It was obvious from the start that this trait was going to get nerfed. Hopefully, though, arenanet does the right thing and nerfs it in a way that it is still viable, yet not domineering.

[Shaogin.2679]

On 11/11/2022 at 11:51 AM, Double Tap said:

Fervent Force is a trait that we're likely to bring down in a future update, but we want to improve other options for untamed before doing so.

No, I'd rather wait and let Anet handle this one. Their balance has actually been slowly improving and headed in the right direction. It is way too soon to suggest nerfs when we do not know what other plans they have for the spec yet.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Shaogin.2679

[Dadnir.5038]

21 minutes ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

You predict, or you just literally read what they've stated?

And no, I'd rather wait and let Anet handle this one. Their balance has actually been slowly improving and headed in the right direction. It is way too soon to suggest nerfs when we do not know what other plans they have for the spec yet.

Please look at the date of those quotes. The OP predicted this in July 2022 and the devs you quote say it's line in november 2022.

[Mell.4873]

On 7/14/2022 at 8:00 AM, xXxOrcaxXx.9328 said:

I predict ANet to be looking into nerfing Fervent Force, and for when that time comes, I'd like to make a suggestion as to not completely ruin or change the trait.

Fervent Force nerf suggestions:

1. Add an internal cooldown
   1. The length of that cooldown is up to the dev's discression, but let's go with 10 seconds as an example
2. Add an 'Ammo' mechanic and two charges to the trait

 

With these changes, Fervent Force can't be freely spammed anymore. Simulataneously, the Ammo mechanic will forestall player frustration, by giving leeway when timing the internal cooldown. If you were to misjudge the internal cooldown and use a CC skill too early, the CC won't be wasted, as the second charge of Fervent Force is still ready to proc.

First Overbearing Smash which has a two stuns 1 second apart so increasing the internal cooldown would really ruin this skill with Fervent Force.

The real problem is Path of Scars and the Weapon trait that lowers the cooldown by 20%. Essentially 12 seconds for a stun can easily be reset via another stun.
If they remove the cooldown redction from the trait or just increase the Path of Scars cooldown this would fix most of Untames FF problem.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Shaogin.2679]

10 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Please look at the date of those quotes. The OP predicted this in July 2022 and the devs you quote say it's line in november 2022.

Oh my, you're absolutely right. 

[Kodama.6453]

I am really glad that Fervent Force has been acknowledged as a problem, even if they don't immediately do something against it.

Has been the best case scenario for me. They see the problems with Fervent Force, but also that it is basically the only thing keeping Untamed alive, so they will work on giving Untamed better tools to work with and then address Fervent Force.