I just have to ask... why

[cyberzombie.7348]

Why is that every time a server gets spawncamped in EBG, people refuse to use the other two exits to flank around? I tried explaining in map & team chat, I tried commanding to at least retake camps and towers, I even manage to open up a keep from behind yet people still choose to go out the front exit dozens of times expecting different results.

[Chaba.5410]

Ever consider that maybe they don't want to retake camps and towers?

[Sleepwalker.1398]

I'm guessing you are fighting Mag.

What good is using those exits if you don't have the numbers.

Chances are that both opponents of Mag are getting spawn camped and as soon as they know a bunch of you took a camp or went for a tower, a bunch of flares will be set off and all the flies will attract to the poop.

[Dawdler.8521]

16 minutes ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

a bunch of flares will be set off and all the flies will attract to the poop.

Not sure if you described taking an objective or tagging up.

[cyberzombie.7348]

16 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Ever consider that maybe they don't want to retake camps and towers?

I wouldn't doubt that possibility if a sum of people weren't complaining about getting spawncamped.

14 minutes ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

What good is using those exits if you don't have the numbers.

7 times out of10 the numbers are there to at least sneak around to take out a camp or open an objective before someone notices. It just needs everyone to be on-board to pull it off, not 4 out of 30 players.

[cyberzombie.7348]

33 minutes ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

Mag are getting spawn camped and as soon as they know a bunch of you took a camp or went for a tower, a bunch of flares will be set off and all the flies will attract to the poop.

If one area is for sure going to be lit up then it gives way for another opening to pressure. A server can have only so many players on 1 map. Its all about outsmarting and out-pacing them.

Edited July 16, 2022 by cyberzombie.7348

[Labjax.2465]

People who spawn camp are truly the dregs of PvP modes in online games. It's like that line in Spaceballs, "If there is one thing I despise, it is a fair fight."

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

So you make it out of spawn by the sides, then what? Are you going to go take their T3 keep with five players? Its not that you can't avoid spawncamping, is that there's no point to.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[cyberzombie.7348]

1 minute ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Are you going to go take their T3 keep with five players?

No, start off with smaller objectives like camps & towers. It's temporary but it forces the campers to stay spread out in return, and if the momentum can be maintained it creates more possibilities for them to slip up.

[cyberzombie.7348]

Any other option is better than just aimlessly running out the front where you know it's where the bulk of the campers are at.

Edited July 16, 2022 by cyberzombie.7348

[ArchonWing.9480]

The game as a whole doesn't really create players that take their own initiative. In any given situation, you have a bunch of players that don't know what to do unless someone leads.

A good experiment to do is to simply stand at a wall or gate and not throw any siege. Most of the time, people will simply just stand there and stare at you until you do.

So it is no surprise that when there is no leader, the whole thing falls apart and there are only chickens with their heads cut off. 

They simply won't think of things like alternate exits or leaving the map, because nobody told them to.

And for some, they just won't leave EB no matter what happens. I only kick people for 1 of 2 reasons: Either they're being annoying in chat, or it's been like 20m and they still haven't swapped  maps. Sometimes they're just following whatever is tagged even if it's not the right squad. Needless to say, not exactly people you can rely on.

There are some players that do take advantage of the legendary defenders to get some cheap kills though. But that doesn't seem to be the majority.

Granted, it probably is a better idea to change maps. Most people will get lost if you try to go around the sides or become a straggler.

 

Back then, I used to just tag briefly on EB for a few motions and then send everyone to another map.  To my memory, nobody's ever complained that they weren't still in EB getting farmed, so they seemed pretty happy about it.

Edited July 16, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[cyberzombie.7348]

13 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

They simply won't think of things like alternate exits or leaving the map, because nobody told them to.

The thing is even when I do tag the majority keeps doing the same thing. There were times where I managed to down a t3 tower lord with several people but couldn't secure it since my group got rushed while 80% of the players was still trying to push the mid route.

 

There are also times where I manage to sneak into inner keep 2-3 times, tag up, then explain that I could port people in. Despite of that, most of the players were still going straight towards the gate.

[Labjax.2465]

21 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

The game as a whole doesn't really create players that take their own initiative. In any given situation, you have a bunch of players that don't know what to do unless someone leads.

A good experiment to do is to simply stand at a wall or gate and not throw any siege. Most of the time, people will simply just stand there and stare at you until you do.

So it is no surprise that when there is no leader, the whole thing falls apart and there are only chickens with their heads cut off. 

They simply won't think of things like alternate exits or leaving the map, because nobody told them to.

And for some, they just won't leave EB no matter what happens. I only kick people for 1 of 2 reasons: Either they're being annoying in chat, or it's been like 20m and they still haven't swapped  maps. Sometimes they're just following whatever is tagged even if it's not the right squad. Needless to say, not exactly people you can rely on.

There are some players that do take advantage of the legendary defenders to get some cheap kills though. But that doesn't seem to be the majority.

Granted, it probably is a better idea to change maps. Most people will get lost if you try to go around the sides or become a straggler.

 

Back then, I used to just tag briefly on EB for a few motions and then send everyone to another map.  To my memory, nobody's ever complained that they weren't still in EB getting farmed, so they seemed pretty happy about it.

I think this speaks to how overwhelming WvW can be without direction. Could just be me projecting my own views on it, idk, but you think about someone unfamiliar with it, it's these huge maps, there's not a lot of indications of what you should be doing or why, and if you run off on your own, there's a good chance you got curbstomped and sent back halfway across the map with nothing to show for it. Like I think that's why so many prefer to follow a commander or just follow the crowd, wherever they happen to be going. By comparison, I don't see the same level of lacking initiative in open world PvE. If anything, people are more apt to ignore guidance there and do their own thing.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

2 hours ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

If one area is for sure going to be lit up then it gives way for another opening to pressure. A server can have only so many players on 1 map. Its all about outsmarting and out-pacing them.

That's the thing. They will always stack EBG and not on any borderlands.

You are better off doing some PVE if can't get enough numbers to take your stuff back.

[ArchonWing.9480]

37 minutes ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

The thing is even when I do tag the majority keeps doing the same thing. There were times where I managed to down a t3 tower lord with several people but couldn't secure it since my group got rushed while 80% of the players was still trying to push the mid route.

 

There are also times where I manage to sneak into inner keep 2-3 times, tag up, then explain that I could port people in. Despite of that, most of the players were still going straight towards the gate.

At least you tried. Nothing more can be done.

34 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I think this speaks to how overwhelming WvW can be without direction. Could just be me projecting my own views on it, idk, but you think about someone unfamiliar with it, it's these huge maps, there's not a lot of indications of what you should be doing or why, and if you run off on your own, there's a good chance you got curbstomped and sent back halfway across the map with nothing to show for it. Like I think that's why so many prefer to follow a commander or just follow the crowd, wherever they happen to be going. By comparison, I don't see the same level of lacking initiative in open world PvE. If anything, people are more apt to ignore guidance there and do their own thing.

Nature of the game modes. A lot of Open World is just a glorified single player game where failure doesn't mean much. But even when you get into more complicated meta events, you can get similar chaos and people getting mad over easy stuff. Like people raging over Dragonfall. Really?

In WvW, you have to either be self sufficient or be a team player, and probably both for the best experience. It's actually an MMO here.

There is of course much to be said about the new player experience in WvW. Namely, it's pretty bad. But while I don't blame new players for struggling, some people just don't have that excuse if they keep doing it for years.

I will say it's a bit annoying sometimes to be a new player in an already established game. People often don't remember what it was like to be newer and expects everyone to have the same deal of experience.

That being said, I think most would learn after the 10th or so time.

This is my own bias. My server has some really awful and toxic players that never learn and worst of all, they give new players crap, and new tags crap for even trying. It's no surprise nobody wants to lead these people. I don't really get why they would play a game to be so bitter but whatever gets them through their days.

tl;dr WvW needs a tutorial. At least that'd be "Content"

Edited July 17, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[LetoII.3782]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

People who spawn camp are truly the dregs of PvP modes in online games. It's like that line in Spaceballs, "If there is one thing I despise, it is a fair fight."

On Mag theres a different Spaceballs quote: Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.

[Xenesis.6389]

53 minutes ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

There are also times where I manage to sneak into inner keep 2-3 times, tag up, then explain that I could port people in. Despite of that, most of the players were still going straight towards the gate.

lol I love it when I'm standing on a wall saying I'm going to port and you get the one dummy that decides to run 10 ft away instead of come stand under the wall... port goes down and then they come hurrying for the port. 🤦‍♂️

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

i bet a lot of it is ppl not trusting your tag. most wvw'ers only follow tags they trust and will just log off when they're not on. its one of wvw's biggest flaws imo.

[Riba.3271]

1 hour ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

i bet a lot of it is ppl not trusting your tag. most wvw'ers only follow tags they trust and will just log off when they're not on. its one of wvw's biggest flaws imo.

it is because the balance was changed to favor defenders so hard that any outdated "selfmade" builds or inexperienced players become useless the moment you go near enemy tower or keep.

Unless your commander makes absolutely 0 mistakes, there are only 2 ways to play the game these days: Defend things or run in superorganised squads. Following random commander and trying to take things on equal timezone tends to be just suicidng.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Riba.3271

[Stand The Wall.6987]

1 hour ago, Riba.3271 said:

it is because the balance was changed to favor defenders so hard that any outdated "selfmade" builds or inexperienced players become useless the moment you go near enemy tower or keep.

Unless your commander makes absolutely 0 mistakes, there are only 2 ways to play the game these days: Defend things or run in superorganised squads. Following random commander and trying to take things on equal timezone tends to be just suicidng.

theres a bunch of cowards in wvw

[Riba.3271]

11 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

theres a bunch of cowards in wvw

You are corrrect, short term this is often the answer but in the end it comes down to whetever it is fun or not as people overcome their fears. And WvW gamers have moved towards just staying away from capping things and most are avoiding joining non tryhard groups. The nerfs to fun and fair fights are real.

More accurate claim would be that they are not good enough to feel useful without having a strong group to back them up. But it isn't reasonable to ask for person to be much better than their opponent to win.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Riba.3271

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

If it's EBG then they might not have much of a choice.  Last time my server got camped there they held every single tower and just loitered there.  It didn't matter which exit you ran out from, because they were swarming all over the place.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

If you're outnumbered, you still shouldn't run out the front door and get farmed because you're outnumbered.  

Also, Maguuma can't hurt you if you leave EBG.  

Finally, not much can be expected from a game mode where most build as tanky as possible to survive, can't think on their own, and have no idea what CC is.

Finally, the number of plat+ players that have no idea how to pull an EWP, have no idea what tricks are, and again, have no idea what CC is, is frankly astounding.  

It's not a new player thing.

 

[Chips.7968]

Challenge... unless you want specific objectives, it's about fighting. So take on the challenge or... go do whatever specific objective via the side exit. 

[cyberzombie.7348]

But  what's the end goal of that challenge, and is there any progression involved? Because to my understanding its not a fight, its headbutting a brick wall expecting it to magically shatter.

 

 Hell, camp defenders bring more reasonable fights because both sides are committing to a goal.