Steam will be a hard sell

[Balsa.3951]

I showed my gf the game, she was very interested at start. Character customization all fun (even so those sliders barely changed anything often and as a mainly human player I noticed how few choices Asuras have (Also why is the Model so low texture?) Anyhow she happy.

Story starts she dont know what to do, no arrow pointers I tell her go to the green star talk with npc. 

next green star pops up she doesent see it because its in the lowest corner of the mini map something new player will not even look.

I tell her go there she does big boss robot fight about to happen! Or not other player killed loading screen.  Now what? cant continue story, just those boring hearts. press 1 press f. Slowly she loses all interest, I tell her after level 10 u will get to the story. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its so freaking boring she is a gamer herself so thats not the issue.

Nothing at start teaches u anything, story wait 10 levels but people loosing interest after reaching level 4 because pressing skill 1 over and over again is not very exciting . If u not someone who know mmos u will feel bored out of ur mind or so confused that u dont even know where to go at start.

I was lucky when i started the game 10 years ago I had the strory i could follow, it was something what gave me a purpose at start.

ps Ur low contrast mouse cursor, my gf tried click a dye she didnt succed till i explained the tip of the cursor (who touches the center of the box does not count as cursor u need go more up.... why just why)

 

BIG IF Anet cant make the start of the game more intuitive and fun people will come and go pretty quick. For ur own interest Anet let people start story at level 2, u worry about key runner? dont be 

[Luthan.5236]

I think it was pretty easy - at least back then at the original release when I started to play. Don't know if they made it harder. (I guess they actually tried to make  it easier.) Most stuff is easy to figure out.

The hardest is the different stuff that you can do in the game: dungeons, fractals, strikes, raids - and the normal open world PvE of course. And the gear and how to play efficiently there. This requires some research. (But I guess a lot of mmorpgs have this kind of problem.)

The green star ... should be figured out easily. Unless the changes from directx9 to directx 11 made some graphics bugs. (Which sure exist ... at some points.) Don't know about the skill leveling of the weapon skills. I think the slots unlock per char level now? (As opposed to the system they initially had at release where you needed to use the previous skill a number of times to unlock the next one - I prefered that.)

Then there are those scouts directing to the renown hearts and stuff. Yeah ... the only problem I see is with the bit amount of different content. (And some older stuff basically obsolete. Especially for crafting where you do the older stuff just to level - and all gear lower than exotics 80 basically useless. There some players are likely to spend more time with stuff where they actually should not focus that much on it - without prior info/help.)

For the Steam playerbase bugs and stuff like that ... will be the main problem though. Very "picky eaters" there. They basically want bug free games like the console games back then (haven't played since SNES times ... but basically there it was just putting in the cartdridge and playing without bugs and no installation required). This game has still some flaws - and bugs that are annoying. Where it easily will get impatient Steam people to write a negative review.

Edit: The story thing is a problem though. And afaik they do (or did) a/b testing on certain stuff like the leveling. (Making it faster.) Imo story should presented without level limits. Or if ... then 0/10/20.../70 ... not at 10/20/30/.../80. Those story steps actually gave a good amount of experience that also helped in leveling. When you could to them while at same level or a bit lower. If you do with level 10 the steps that originally had mobs <= level 10 in them ... it won't help that much xp-wise.

The tutorial could be made per char. Not a section where other players also are playing in it.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[SlayerXX.7138]

Well the game not holding your hostage in Cutscenes and story mission is as much a feature as it is a (perceived) flaw.

36 minutes ago, Balsa.3951 said:

I tell her

I don't get that. Just make a new character and play with the person you want to hook. Every single person complaining about not able to hook people either gives them basically homework or shows up with their 80 and trivializes the content. She doesn't find something NP just walk her to it in the game.

It is an MMO just play with the person.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Balsa.3951]

1 minute ago, Albi.7250 said:

Well the game not holding your hostage in Cutscenes and story mission is as much a feature as it is a (perceived) flaw.

I don't get that. Just make a new character and play with the person you want to hook. Every single person complaining about not able to hook people either gives them basically homework or shows up with their 80 and trivializes the content. She doesn't find something NP just walk her to it in the game.

for comparison EOD starts strong, gives u a story insight. than let u go to the instance direct into action. Imagine EOD start and another player kills the first big boss when u just arrive and u get rewarded

[SlayerXX.7138]

17 minutes ago, Balsa.3951 said:

for comparison EOD starts strong, gives u a story insight. than let u go to the instance direct into action. Imagine EOD start and another player kills the first big boss when u just arrive and u get rewarded

You are not everyone. Plenty of people want to explore on their own and not be shackled by cut scene and instances. If they do the may be more at home at final fantasy. But that is beside the point. Why are you not playing with your friend? Make a new character and go out on a adventure. Throwing them alone into a 10 old MMO and acting as a voiced guide wont hook people. It is an MMO.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Albi.7250

[SlayerXX.7138]

48 minutes ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

She's a "gamer" yet she can't follow directions? What does she usually play?

 

44 minutes ago, vanfrano.1325 said:

I heard FFXIV is great for "gamers" like her, you get a "QUEST ACCEPTED" prompt taking half your screen every time you accept a quest and you pretty much never need to use your brain. Which, I'll admit, we're not too far off here either.

Lol guys tone down the snark. Unpopulated MMO are more or less just bloaty, bad designed single player Games. I wouldn't fault a Person to not realizing UI blink #12 is actually important. Remember kids: games are for fun:).

[Gehenna.3625]

To be honest, for me the leveling experience as a whole was boring and that's why I quit initially. I tried again, but it was still boring. Then, after HoT was already out for a few months I tried again. The leveling was still boring but at least there were some means to skip ahead. 

Nowadays, when I make a new character, I use a birthday thingy to get my new character to level 40-60 instantly and do the rest with tomes. In my view the leveling experience just isn't fun, because of a number of reasons (please note, this is my personal opinion):

• Superfluous levels. At some point I feel like I've reached maximum level (or should have) and after that it's just a matter of getting more Hero Points but just spread out over too many levels. This is around level 35 for me. So to me level 40 would've been a good level cap. And when you see then, what you have to put into the 40 levels story wise and Hero Points wise retroactively, it would probably have been a much better leveling experience with much more story to go through per level.
• Boring zones. One zone is very much like another. Now visually they can be very different, but as to what you actually do there it's pretty much the same. I noticed that after a few zones: what sort of things you do in a zone is just like what you did in the previous zone. Just think of the Gift of Exploration and how many people hate doing that.
• Unnecessarily complex story boss fights. I think that they should chosen for a simpler solution than overtuning these fights so that new players do not understand them and get frustrated with all the stuff they have to dodge. Instead of making story bosses more transparent and not have a lot of hit points, Anet's solution is that you can self-ress and continue where you left off. For new players this means that a boss fight that should only take 5-10 mins takes half an hour or more, but you'll get there in the end. 
• Terrible vanilla story. Now, it might've been because I play humans and norn mostly, but for humans the vanilla story (imo) is completely cringe. Female characters sound like moms and not in a good way. Very, ehh, matronizing. I turned off the sound because of that cause I just couldn't take anymore of it. Also what happens in the story and the conversations are of an extremely different tone, so I never felt that the threats were taken seriously by my character and the npc's. And then around level 30 instead of you being the hero, you end up in a support role for Trahearne (who uses too many words and speaks too slowly).

So I still skip levelling to this day. After vanilla the story did get more serious, more in line with the events that were going on story-wise. But I still only play them on my main, aka they have no replay value to me. The story is decent (after vanilla) but the boss fights are still yawn but also frustrating because of how they are scripted. The thing is that I just don't care enough to remember the mechanics.

I know, I know...people will not agree at all or some of it. But to me this is a lot of things that you can encounter as a new player, that can be very frustrating. In my view level 80 as a cap was a bad idea from the start. It stopped your story each time you completed a story quest and you then were relegated to unrelated stuff like hearts and I never felt like there was a flow in the story. And yeah, for me, the vanilla story was terribad as it was. But I think that levels would've been more meaningful if they'd stuck to 40 levels instead of doubling it.

[Lottie.5370]

Why are there 50 posts about Steam a week? The game is surviving just fine without being on Steam, it will survive just fine after.

There are legitimate criticisms to be made about the game, there are lots of things that would make the game better, but why the kitten does it have to be about Steam?

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, Balsa.3951 said:

I showed my gf the game, she was very interested at start. Character customization all fun (even so those sliders barely changed anything often and as a mainly human player I noticed how few choices Asuras have (Also why is the Model so low texture?) Anyhow she happy.

Story starts she dont know what to do, no arrow pointers I tell her go to the green star talk with npc. 

next green star pops up she doesent see it because its in the lowest corner of the mini map something new player will not even look.

I tell her go there she does big boss robot fight about to happen! Or not other player killed loading screen.  Now what? cant continue story, just those boring hearts. press 1 press f. Slowly she loses all interest, I tell her after level 10 u will get to the story. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its so freaking boring she is a gamer herself so thats not the issue.

Nothing at start teaches u anything, story wait 10 levels but people loosing interest after reaching level 4 because pressing skill 1 over and over again is not very exciting . If u not someone who know mmos u will feel bored out of ur mind or so confused that u dont even know where to go at start.

I was lucky when i started the game 10 years ago I had the strory i could follow, it was something what gave me a purpose at start.

ps Ur low contrast mouse cursor, my gf tried click a dye she didnt succed till i explained the tip of the cursor (who touches the center of the box does not count as cursor u need go more up.... why just why)

 

BIG IF Anet cant make the start of the game more intuitive and fun people will come and go pretty quick. For ur own interest Anet let people start story at level 2, u worry about key runner? dont be 

In fairness, GW2 unlocks weapon skills fairly quickly.  By level 10 you have your weapon swap and can choose any two weapons available to your class.  That's quite a few skills to play with.  Compare to an MMO like FFXIV where you're basically pushing the same 3 buttons in sequence for the majority of your "rotation" for 50+ levels.

Having said that, I agree the lack of guidance is problematic.  The game would feel a lot better if you were always working on something relating to the story instead of being left to wander aimlessly around the world doing hearts and map completion.  It's very boring and doesn't really do the later game justice, in my opinion.

[Farohna.6247]

19 minutes ago, Lottie.5370 said:

Why are there 50 posts about Steam a week? The game is surviving just fine without being on Steam, it will survive just fine after.

There are legitimate criticisms to be made about the game, there are lots of things that would make the game better, but why the kitten does it have to be about Steam?

It makes it click bait-y.  Gets all the Steam homies fired up and they get their pitchforks out.  This post really had nothing to do with Steam. It has to do with a boring leveling experience for a new player who expects to be pointed to everything they need to do or go.  Since GW2 requires a little more reading, this can be confusing for someone who plays Candy Crush.  And yes, it will survive with or without Steam.  The posts have just become silly at this point.

[Tinker.6924]

I certainly agree that an optional intro/tutorial zone that taught you the mechanics of the game would be a major improvement over the current into zones.  If you're not familiar with MMO's everything is very confusing in gw2 at first.  

 

Not sure what this all had to do with steam.

Edited July 17, 2022 by EmmetOtter.8542

[SinisterSlay.6973]

Quick answer.  Pop your mentor tag and hang out in starter zones and give new players a tour.  That works way better than any game can do itself with dialogs, and makes it feel populated and engaging and spreads the positivity of this community.

 

I know on steam release I will mentor people.

Edited July 17, 2022 by SinisterSlay.6973

[Xerxez.7361]

2 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I know, I know...people will not agree at all or some of it. But to me this is a lot of things that you can encounter as a new player, that can be very frustrating. In my view level 80 as a cap was a bad idea from the start.

 

Never actually considered Level 80 as a cap and more of a tutorial because the real content that the game offers doesn't even start until your character is level 80.

[Farohna.6247]

3 minutes ago, SinisterSlay.6973 said:

Quick answer.  Pop your mentor tag and hang out in starter zones and give new players a tour.  That works way better than any game can do itself with dialogs, and makes it feel populated and engaging and spreads the positivity of this community.

 

I know on steam release I will mentor people.

Great suggestion!  I see people in the starting maps frequently with a mentor tag to answer questions or help out.  If anyone isn't committed to anything or just feeling generous, pop over to one of these maps and follow this suggestion.  Maybe new players will feel more welcomed, less confused, and enjoy some tips and pointers that the games does not explain.  Did you know that typing /wiki....

[Tinker.6924]

2 hours ago, SinisterSlay.6973 said:

Pop your mentor tag and hang out in starter zones and give new players a tour. 

That assumes that a new player would understand what that tag meant and it also assumes that they would feel comfortable asking.  Many game communities have bad reputations for treating new players terribly and while I agree gw2 isn't one, it takes time for a new player to understand that and feel comfortable taking the social risk in asking random people for help.

 

It would be better for the game to have a tutorial mode or at least info on where to get help in and out of game.  

 

[SinisterSlay.6973]

23 minutes ago, EmmetOtter.8542 said:

That assumes that a new player would understand what that tag meant and it also assumes that they would feel comfortable asking.  Many game communities have bad reputations for treating new players terribly and while I agree gw2 isn't one, it takes time for a new player to understand that and feel comfortable taking the social risk in asking random people for help.

 

It would be better for the game to have a tutorial mode or at least info on where to get help in and out of game.  

 

Tutorial would just need a picture of the Apple and tell the player to find those to ask for help

[Farohna.6247]

23 minutes ago, EmmetOtter.8542 said:

That assumes that a new player would understand what that tag meant and it also assumes that they would feel comfortable asking.  Many game communities have bad reputations for treating new players terribly and while I agree gw2 isn't one, it takes time for a new player to understand that and feel comfortable taking the social risk in asking random people for help.

 

It would be better for the game to have a tutorial mode or at least info on where to get help in and out of game.  

 

This is true, and yes the initial leveling needs some improvements as has long been discussed, but most mentors on the starting maps are good about explaining what they are and if anyone needs help to ask.  Some simply announce different things new players would like to know or go to areas where they can help.

[kharmin.7683]

2 hours ago, EmmetOtter.8542 said:

That assumes that a new player would understand what that tag meant and it also assumes that they would feel comfortable asking.

 

 

When someone named "Mentor [character name]" shows up in map chat, it should be rather apparent that the player is there to help.  I can't think that it would take a lot of understanding.

[Ashen.2907]

7 hours ago, Balsa.3951 said:

for comparison EOD starts strong, gives u a story insight. than let u go to the instance direct into action. Imagine EOD start and another player kills the first big boss when u just arrive and u get rewarded

You mean endgame content designed for veterans of the game plays differently than the tutorial?

Sorry, but you are off base with your comparisons.

 

[itspomf.9523]

Big same, for me, OP.

 

I miss the original leveling "experience" when the story literally started at Lv. 2, the level you were guaranteed to have once you finished the introductory encounter.  Each subsequent step was no more than one or two levels away, if even that, so there was never this dry spell of waiting 10 levels for the next "chapter" to unlock.  You just made your way to the next thing, optionally doing content and leveling up along the way, and were ready to go by the time you got there.

 

What we have now is an absolute dumpster fire of design, and I say that as someone who used to enjoy the leveling process.

[Labjax.2465]

The leveling experience is pretty awful and the historically poorly received NPE made it distinctly worse in some ways. Level gating skills and abilities, level gating story, tossing you into the beginning of the game with nothing to do other than map completion.

Yeah, it's rough. I'm pretty sure they've said they're revisiting the leveling experience. To what extent, I don't know. I know they already made a small tweak to make the gear awarded through level up to be salvageable (it was inconsistent that it wasn't, while most gear is) so that's something.

I know the old "unlock weapon skills through killing enemies" thing had its flaws, but it sure gave you some variety to look forward to, instead of waiting on arbitrary level up. Surely there's a better way to do skills than 111ing as the main introduction to the game until the designers decide you've reached a level where they think your brain can handle more now. I think it's worse somehow in GW2 because 1 continues auto-casting if you're positioned right, so it feels even less like active playing if that's all you have.

RPGs in general I find make this mistake sometimes of starting you out with too little to work with for too many encounters. Like it's one thing if the game wants to start out slow and all you gotta do is take out one room of enemies, but the way it is now, you're looking at map completion, which is a lot of enemies across different levels before you get much of anywhere. And yeah, you'll unlock a couple more abilities as you go, but you're not going to be getting much of anything that allows strategy or forethought other than dodge for a while. Like maybe if you're lucky, your class will get a combo field and finisher, but that's about it.

Edit: This is off the top of my head, I'm not claiming it's well thought out, but if I were thinking about making it more engaging, I'd think about putting introduction to the talent trees way earlier. Get people presented with a simple choice on a default 1st tree, so they can start doing something that changes their experience. Encourage them to set it one way, try it, and then set it another, so it's clear they can change it at any time. And give them a second ability to start with that isn't auto-cast, so they have something active to look at and do.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Radina.6057]

Is GW2s FreeToPlay model still locking you out of Hero Points?

I remember playing through someone I knew from another MMO. She wanted to give it a shot. I was just sitting with my eyes wide open in disbelief when she told me getting hero points was impossible for her because of some restrictions.

Not only does that slow down your character progression, it also kills a fast way to level up your character. Map completions.

 

She stopped by the time she got close to 30. I know lots and lots of people play GW2 as a Maverick, but if you are interested in playing an MMO, having the first dungeon locked behind level 35 is kind of kittened up. If GW2s focus was on story/solo play that would be okay I guess. But its not. Its much more diverse than that, and has amazing group content to offer. But 99% of it is locked behind level 80.

 

SWTOR doesnt only give you full access to the complete base game as an F2P, with a minor exp malus that still easily lets you level up via story and planet quests, but also tosses you into your first dungeon by the time you leave the tutorial area. You know. Like its actually an MMO.

 

Well. After all some of the devs know that their leveling experience is everything but the dream. Why else would you gift everyone a max level boost with the purchase of an expansion. 
The only problem with that approach is that alot of people are really stubborn when it comes to recommending those boosts. Like you couldnt replay the story, and focus on what you like, instead of being locked into GW2 uncomfortable leveling experience. 
There are just too many people that tell you, no matter what, to level your first character "the good old way".

[Randulf.7614]

People need to stop being fearful over steam. Without steam GW2 would just continue on as normal, but this idea the game is in trouble if everything isn’t perfect is bizarre. Either they will love it or they won’t. I get some of the sharpening up of the game ready for more players, but to be honest the early game is pretty intuitive, and generally regarded as fun. It’s later on many of the more serious issues start to pile up.

I don’t want the whole game overhauled for steam. As big a market as it is, it’s also not necessarily one which will promote a player to be in one game for another ten years. 
 

I do think the original early game was better though. It was clearer where you had to go to follow the next story step. When they changed it to its current form, it made it worse imo. But it’s not a major issue or anything. 

[Linken.6345]

22 minutes ago, Radina.6057 said:

Is GW2s FreeToPlay model still locking you out of Hero Points?

I remember playing through someone I knew from another MMO. She wanted to give it a shot. I was just sitting with my eyes wide open in disbelief when she told me getting hero points was impossible for her because of some restrictions.

Not only does that slow down your character progression, it also kills a fast way to level up your character. Map completions.

 

She stopped by the time she got close to 30. I know lots and lots of people play GW2 as a Maverick, but if you are interested in playing an MMO, having the first dungeon locked behind level 35 is kind of f*cked up. If GW2s focus was on story/solo play that would be okay I guess. But its not. Its much more diverse than that, and has amazing group content to offer. But 99% of it is locked behind level 80.

 

SWTOR doesnt only give you full access to the complete base game as an F2P, with a minor exp malus that still easily lets you level up via story and planet quests, but also tosses you into your first dungeon by the time you leave the tutorial area. You know. Like its actually an MMO.

 

Well. After all some of the devs know that their leveling experience is everything but the dream. Why else would you gift everyone a max level boost with the purchase of an expansion. 
The only problem with that approach is that alot of people are really stubborn when it comes to recommending those boosts. Like you couldnt replay the story, and focus on what you like, instead of being locked into GW2 uncomfortable leveling experience. 
There are just too many people that tell you, no matter what, to level your first character "the good old way".

The hp are locked for everyone it was part of the npe.

If I remember right you have to level your character to 13 for the hero points to pop up on maps and be interactable.

[Linken.6345]

dubble post delete

Edited July 17, 2022 by Linken.6345