Mech haters - Do you really want harder builds to be stronger?

[Tyro.8237]

I don't think it is that simple and productive to just always ask to nerf a profession. 

I just play casually but for my playstyle i see that no matter which EOD elite Profession i switch to, i do quite well and the mobs melt. I see little difference between my Mech, Bladesworn, Catalysts, Virtuoso, Harbinger, Willbender, Vindicator, Untamed, Specter. 

 

They should look into core and older elite specs to bring them up to par. Lately, i really tried with Berserker and Spellbreaker. It was fun. But then i switched to Bladesworn and i felt like a super hero compared to them. 

 

I rarely used the rifle with engineer (one of my first characters) before the recent rifle upgrade. I just didn't like it. I used grenades, bomb kit, elixir gun, or the other elite weapons. Now the Mechanist has the pet tanking which is why most think it's so simple. As for utility, those who don't play engineer don't realize you lose all the toolbelt skills as a Mechanist. 

 

Those complaining about PvP. I have tried different professions there as well. Also the Mechanist. You can get stunlocled by certain professions either way no matter what class. Or melted down. People probably see that green mech and just think that's why. 

 

Catalyst was nerfed. No idea why. Mech got nerfed, then got the rifle and got nerfed right after again. 

 

All these nerfs just take away the fun of playing something. Buff others. Not always take away. You keep taking away what's left? Just keep one profession then so all are the same. 

 

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

19 hours ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

You do realize the other specs... Have 10 second weapon swaps on rotations as well as stance swaps and that any half decent player can extremely, trivially easily keep a weapon swap right?

 

Becareful what you wish for....I'd love to have weapon swap on mech. Humble request to Anet, Please make it happen.

[Nephalem.8921]

13 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

Sunchaser and Tails and Obtena write nice (long) posts, but.......... you all understand that all this thing started because i simple point out that all LI build are similar, so if one LI build can be AFK, the rest would be able to do that too and the original Lottie sayd was not that, that only Mecha could be AFK and no the other LI build?

The discussion then go on all other tracks now.......... well, some interesting info come out of it at least.

Ah, right, remember Rifle Mecha lost around 2k dps from AARocket change for Robot now, and the dps test on Snowcrow are older (20/07) then the nerfing patch (01/08), so all dps on the site that use AARocket with the robot (or flamethrower) are now around -2k dps.

Wrong...

Rifle aa got buffed by 22% in the same patch resulting in a 400 overall dps nerf. Rifle aa buff was good since it was still bad for scrapper or holo. they just forgot to nerf the mech.

[Polar.8634]

22 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Saying mech is an OP healer doesnt even make sense when as far as healing goes, you are relying on Medikit and elixir guns, which Scrapper heal also rely on.

Many classes can heal, not every has same utility and boon coverage. Scrapper - is ok healer, just not better then fb, that's why mostly fb is played as quick heal. Same for mech - his rivals as alac heal are tempest and Rene. U see them anywhere? I saw only in YouTube vids . 

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

14 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

Many classes can heal, not every has same utility and boon coverage. Scrapper - is ok healer, just not better then fb, that's why mostly fb is played as quick heal. Same for mech - his rivals as alac heal are tempest and Rene. U see them anywhere? I saw only in YouTube vids . 

druid is as good as alac heal mech. and Yes I do see it frequently on pug raid.

[Polar.8634]

15 minutes ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

druid is as good as alac heal mech. and Yes I do see it frequently on pug raid.

Only in raid because it has immob. I did not see it is fractals or strikes in months.

[Kuma.1503]

On 8/7/2022 at 12:49 PM, Ashgar.3024 said:

A pure melee build just can't compete with Mecanist, period.

Bladesworn/Condi weaver - "Am I a joke to you?"

Holo isn't pure melee, and it died because of indirect nerfs. 

 

[Deepcuts.9740]

I have a question for all the mechanist haters. A question involving logic and one I asked several times in squads without anyone actually answering.

Q: If the mechanist is so LI/easy/accessible to play and deal great DPS, why many times in squads with several mechanists we see such a large DPS difference between them? If all it takes is press 1 to win as many "knowledgeable" fellow players state, why the big DPS difference?

For people not using arcdps or for those that did not notice, the difference between top mechanist DPS and lowest DPS mechanist can be as high as 15-20K.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

3 minutes ago, Deepcuts.9740 said:

I have a question for all the mechanist haters. A question involving logic and one I asked several times in squads without anyone actually answering.

Q: If the mechanist is so LI/easy/accessible to play and deal great DPS, why many times in squads with several mechanists we see such a large DPS difference between them? If all it takes is press 1 to win as many "knowledgeable" fellow players state, why the big DPS difference?

For people not using arcdps or for those that did not notice, the difference between top mechanist DPS and lowest DPS mechanist can be as high as 15-20K.

Some mechanists have better white items than others, thus making difference in overall DPS. Also it's important where you park your character, there are some superior positions allowing glorious afking experience.

[SlayerXX.7138]

5 hours ago, Deepcuts.9740 said:

If the mechanist is so LI/easy/accessible to play and deal great DPS, why many times in squads with several mechanists we see such a large DPS difference between them? If all it takes is press 1 to win as many "knowledgeable" fellow players state, why the big DPS difference?

You may forgot that Mechs are not only Easy dps, but also decent healer with insane boom coverage. You may looked at ham dps? In Strike pugs dps mechanist are on the top of my arcdps. Sure the one who got some coffee during the encounter "only" does 20k, while Tryhards actually rotation enjoyer does 30k+. A variance of 50% is absurdly low for Pugs in Guildwars. In Strikes Profession performance generally goes from 10k to 30k not 20k to 30k+ like in the mechs case.

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Albi.7250 said:

You may forgot that Mechs are not only Easy dps, but also decent healer with insane boom coverage. You may looked at ham dps? In Strike pugs dps mechanist are on the top of my arcdps. Sure the one who got some coffee during the encounter "only" does 20k, while Tryhards actually rotation enjoyer does 30k+. A variance of 50% is absurdly low for Pugs in Guildwars. In Strikes Profession performance generally goes from 10k to 30k not 20k to 30k+ like in the mechs case.

You would think... 

20k is what I get on Cele Catalyst just lazily rotating between fire/earth while also forgetting to equip my food/utility buff. And this build comes with with might/prot for your party while being incredibly tanky. 

I don't run Empowered Empowerment, so I can make the choice between stablility or more boon uptime depending on the fight's needs. 

This also so happens to be my go to ele build for tanking since I never have to touch water during my rotation, I can use it for self heals/cleanses and I can use earth 4 for an on demand block. 

But naturally, most people don't bother theorycrafting things like this and just copy what they see other people doing. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Tails.9372]

1 hour ago, Albi.7250 said:

A variance of 50% is absurdly low for Pugs in Guildwars.

And that's the thing "in Guildwars", in other games LI builds / gameplay is way closer to HI builds / gameplay and is also often times equal or even better (e.g. the common spin2win berserker topping the DPS chart by holding down the spin button). Now I don't think that the GW2 devs are aiming for the "industry standard" but they did say, in no uncertain terms, that they want to reduce the performance gap between the higher and the lower end so I would expect to see what they did with rifle mech also with other sets across the board and in that regard rifle mechs 28k vs. 36k is actually a rather generous difference in favor of the more involved gameplay.

[MrForz.1953]

Good god, this is still going?

[Flowerpot.6025]

On 8/5/2022 at 5:37 AM, Kuma.1503 said:

For the longest time, for the 3-4 years since I've been playing this game, Engineer has been among the least desirable classes in PvE. It only excelled in the DPS role, and even at this job, it was outclassed. You never LFG'd for an engineer, we didn't have that special mechanic, unique buff, or boon that had groups looking for us. We were warm bodies to fill in space one you managed to fill all of the important roles in your group. 

 

That's what bothers me the most, tbh. I've been playing Engi since release. I never complained about how other classes felt better in pretty much every single aspect of the game. I just kept playing because I liked my class even though I knew I'd never reach the DPS output or supportability of other classes.

 

Came back recently and I've been really happy to see that the newest elite spec is what I've always wanted. A fun summoner/pet class with good DPS where I don't have to do finger gymnastics to do decent. And it's just really annoying to see so many people complain about it. And I don't even understand why. Yes, it's easy to play, yes it deals good damage. Now, what's the problem exactly? Where were your complaints when we had to manage multiple skill kits to do half the dmg other classes did? Most people never really cared about the class, only now since it's a top/good DPS class.

[Triptaminas.4789]

On 8/5/2022 at 6:37 AM, Kuma.1503 said:

I know that's what many claim. Lately Mech has been a hot topic in just about every aspect of the game. Issues mainly stem from it's ease of use and general durability, but to all the people complaining that mech is too easy and too effective, I have to ask. 

Where were all of you during PoF?

For the longest time, for the 3-4 years since I've been playing this game, Engineer has been among the least desirable classes in PvE. It only excelled in the DPS role, and even at this job, it was outclassed. You never LFG'd for an engineer, we didn't have that special mechanic, unique buff, or boon that had groups looking for us. We were warm bodies to fill in space one you managed to fill all of the important roles in your group. 

And sitting comfortably at the bottom of the barrel in the list of "Warm bodies" to choose from, was Core condi engineer. 

A high intensity, high APM, high skill build. 

With mediocre dps. 

It was also so undesirable, that snowcrows eventually dropped it from their benchmark list. Despite the effort that went into playing it, it wasn't considered worth the effort. 

 

Yet everyone complaining about Mech today were more than happy to go about their day, ignoring this dead build, happily out dpsing the enigneer players attempting to play it despite the fact that their build was not only easier, but provided far more value. 

To this day, core condi engineer is still a dead build, and even condi holo has fallen out of favor, but I don't hear people arguing how that's a problem, how either of these high intensity builds should be rewarded for the effort they put in.

So for people who want Mech nerfed, ask yourself, are you so upset about it because an easy build is outperforming a harder build? Or is it because you're upset that YOUR build isn't able to be top dog on the DPS charts as often as you'd like? 

 

Lemme pontificate a bit on topic at hand, and while i should probably just create new thread for this, yet i will post here and forget. 

 

It be bit lengthy, english is not my native tongue and in order to actually share my take on engineer sheanigans there is need for some context : 

 

``` Engineer has been among the least desirable classes```

 

Exceptionalism is an exception, people dont like to be challenged intellectually or emotionally, in every game most players play easy classes like warriors for example, by default its easy rotations, and least effort for casual players to be decent.

Complex classes while producing way higher outputs in endgame, by default is undesirable, it simply requires too much effort to master, yet yields intellectual gratification and exceptional performance in case of compulsive gaming. 

 

From day i started playing gw2, which first time was 9 years ago, till recent changes, i had impression that lil eng and fragile glass cannon aka mesmer is hardest to play, needing lot of game time to even keep up with avg player that randomly clicks skill buttons, either dps is way too low, or linear relationship between getting hit few times and spamming 4th button afterwards to mitigate routine journey from nearest waypoint. 

 

My struggle bit different than engineer main, but also kinda the same. 

 

I was dying all the time, getting tilted by other players killing same mobs way faster than i do, without even checking their hp bars, and while i could build sturdy build, damage output would make playing into pure pain.

 

So i played, avoiding group activities to not drag party down for prob first 500h.  

Fast forward... im not sure how tanky meta classes with serious survival feats, cope with me remaining last man standing or ressing whole squad and saving the run. 

 

I rarely seen engineers, but i was well aware its rarest of classes for complexity and struggle needed to make it decent, was suppose to be second class i really sink time into. 

..............

Light/medium/heavy makes no difference whatsoever, yet i maintained an impression that game still have character and focus for each class, why else the class system would be in place? 

Archdps and its statistic's bursted my bubble, and i came to realization we just playing total kitten classes here, and never be main dps/support, because there is classes that is top support/heal/dps and tank with single build, gods of GW2, we just mare mortals here, its bit tilting that said classes have it so easy, but life isnt fair, so its normal its not fair in game's too. 

 

My issue with Engineer is that it completely lost the last bits of its character, became braindead class that is now suggested for new players to play.

From hardest and most complex to easiest and most straightforward, cant make this kitten up. 

I used to see eng once a blue moon, and nowdays i end up with SM composition that have 5 mechs in one squad. 

 

Yesterday i seen two mech's pulling casually pulling 42k sustained dps, 3am, friday night, hall of judgment, cant make this kitten up, had to recheck archdps logs to confirm im not tripping from sleep deprivation or smtg (p.s this is only reason i came back to rant in forums now)

 

Lads was skilled, never seen such sustained output before, most never pull those numbers, but that's not the point im trying to make here, point is that class system is completely broken, there is no MMORPG with such detachment's between supposed class roles and actual gameplay as in here, new players will have their mind blown. 

.................

 

So to finish this as i started... Exceptionalism is an exception

 

While my interest lays on complexity and intellectual gratification, i dont think thats the case for 99% of casual players, so congrats for engineers on becoming easiest to play, and most frequently seen class in game.

 

And while i think its completely broken, in both class "lore"/"role"/overall rpg logic, game kinda need an stupid class that 5 year olds can play without dying and at same time feeling powerful. 

 

P.S anet should limit class population per map, its bit ridiculous now because visual noise from those green bots is absurd while half of squad is mech's 

 

[Atticus.7194]

17 hours ago, Flowerpot.6025 said:

 

That's what bothers me the most, tbh. I've been playing Engi since release. I never complained about how other classes felt better in pretty much every single aspect of the game. I just kept playing because I liked my class even though I knew I'd never reach the DPS output or supportability of other classes.

 

Came back recently and I've been really happy to see that the newest elite spec is what I've always wanted. A fun summoner/pet class with good DPS where I don't have to do finger gymnastics to do decent. And it's just really annoying to see so many people complain about it. And I don't even understand why. Yes, it's easy to play, yes it deals good damage. Now, what's the problem exactly? Where were your complaints when we had to manage multiple skill kits to do half the dmg other classes did? Most people never really cared about the class, only now since it's a top/good DPS class.

"Decent damage" uh me thinks you're intentionally downplaying the amount and ease of pMechs do "decent damage". That's like 30k where you're not blowing up the meters but you're not being ostracized but pMechs do more than that incredibly easily which brings me to what the "problem" is, it's that it's so much easier to achieve high DPS with pMechs compared to other classes and specs that overwhelmingly players choose this spec over everything else. It stifles player diversity which is key to this game continuing to be fun creating an environment where everyone isn't the same thing. 

 

Also spare me the "engi's had it so hard for so long" sobstory I've played holo for years and we dont have a right to a persecution complex to the determent of the whole game. I don't want to be "better" than any other class I want a fun class that's comparable and rewards effort with effectiveness and there's no reason pMech can't become just that. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Atticus.7194

[anbujackson.9564]

To be honest, I dont know whats worse.

The people who still defend this performance or the people who cant even do proper dps with this build. It blows my mind how you can possibly fail this. You dont even need grenades. Just your rifle skills and your elite off CD and be top dps (and your F skills if you are not lazy). Then again you get surprised all the time in this game.

Cant blame people to spam pmech everywhere though, especially in OW and raids/strikes. Its so easy and effective that you actually have to try NOT to play it everywhere because your value is just so much higher in most cases. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[Styopa.2538]

On 8/4/2022 at 10:37 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

Yet everyone complaining about Mech today were more than happy to go about their day, ignoring this dead build, happily out dpsing the enigneer players attempting to play it despite the fact that their build was not only easier, but provided far more value. 

Nope.  Day 1 engineer here, and I've always been FINE with being a mediocre dps spec, not LFG'd.  I like playing and having people even occasionally say "wow, thanks - that was a lot easier than expected. " obviously surprised that Engineer didn't intrinsically suck as much as they'd heard.

 

So maybe don't use the word 'everyone'?

[Zaret.1450]

the thing is, balance is a difficult still simple thing.

For suports getting access to certain boons that sre better than others, alac, quick, power, stab, aegis, classes with those boons will be better sups than classes without them, as we have seen for years now, what this means is, if fb and mec have those boons while others lack stab for example, fb and mec will forever be better, also people allwais look for the easyest way to win, in most content bringing stab and aegis just makes your group do bosses faster, win more fights in wvw etc, thus people will stop playing other things that lack, and so suports should have kind of a standard set of boons, this way even if everything is a bit too good, at least everyone gets the spot.

For dps is different, as i see it the range of dmg good for raids and strikes would be between 35 and 40k on golem, making more difficult classes do 39k wile simpler classes get 35-36k would mean a dif of 3k, enought for "elitist" or better said players that like to optimize to play the 39k classes, while more casual players can use a 36k class and find a spot without much trouble, of course the access to cc, combo fields and finishers and similar can be counted, a selfish dps without cc can go 38k, and a dificult class that has tons of cc and so being also 38k, one is better but both end up being good and noone will conplain about not finding a spot.

[Kuma.1503]

9 minutes ago, Styopa.2538 said:

Nope.  Day 1 engineer here, and I've always been FINE with being a mediocre dps spec, not LFG'd.  I like playing and having people even occasionally say "wow, thanks - that was a lot easier than expected. " obviously surprised that Engineer didn't intrinsically suck as much as they'd heard.

 

So maybe don't use the word 'everyone'?

If you want to really blow people's mind. Try playing core power engi today. Especially post patch. It's already a decent build, and will likely reach around ~33k dps post buff. People's reaction to a core rifle engi dealing good damage in a squad is priceless. 

If you want to take the meme further you an use golemancer rune, then target it and say "I'm a mechanist see. Here's my robot".

Core engi needs a lot less crit chance to so you're free to equip pieces of dragon or valk gear without losing dps as well. 

 

 

 

[SleepyBat.9034]

On 8/5/2022 at 9:51 PM, Sunchaser.9854 said:

The thing is, class balance is more about giving up one thing in a class up, and more about a sum of parts.

When i was a kid, i was in both shoes, there was a class that i played as a kid that could do literally 2-3x the dps of most other players, all just for pressing 1-3 buttons. It was arcane mages. I had been playing wow for a long time tired of being ganked by rogues and silenced by priests. But the build literally let you kill people in 3 seconds in pvp by waiting for someone to cast a spell, counterspell them to silence them for 4 seconds, cast one arcane blast and then trigger a rune for a second instant blast that'd LITERALLY 2-3 shot other players in a silence.

 

To say it was balanced was a understatement, yet the wow dps gap of practical results was more like +50%, like 10k-13k WoW dps vs 15k arcane mage dps. And it had a mechanic where each time it was cast, it pretty much doubled the damage but tripled the mana cost. it was a spec balanced around the mana costs of the next Expansion, and all i'd say is "but mage is squishy, or we have trade offs. it costs more mana each time!" (But, we had so much mana, as well as a 60% mana regeneration ability, as well as a raid trinket that could provide near 100% nonstop mana discounts and free casting it didn't really matter.

 

When other classes talk about balance, it can be easy to think of it as "THEY WANT TO make my class weaker! I have to defend it, why shouldn't i be rewarded, i do top dps, so it's therefore skilled gameplay, etc!", and while it can be true performing high can be a sign of good play. The problem is, many players who perform 2-4k on other specs can literally perform at 28k-35k levels. The spec basically plays itself, just like a infamous meme of the 'faceroll' origin. Where a arcane mage in wow keybound every button to arcane blast by outdpsing most practical peers. Gw2 takes that one step further by adding ridicolous hidden features past break bars. Invisible cast time cancels that clip your dps on specs. Mechanist is literally balanced around afking to 35k-37k dps results while providing might and potential for 100% alacity while having 4 button rotations and often practical raid results putting 20-25k dps as a top raider with years raiding, 25k dps as a afk mechanist autoing, and 35k-37k for a mechanist using 4 buttons.

And 30k-39k for specs that often provide no group boons, are melee range, and often practically drop to 10k-15k raid dps due to mechanics or downtime or the fight having adds or invulnerability / boss swap phases where all condi damage gets clipped. When 90% of your damage is dots that take 10-15 seconds to deal damage,  and mobs can be shot from 1200 range away for instant power damage. Often times that 39k on a golem becomes 5-10k when the 39k over 10 seconds becomes a 4k in 1 second clip.

There are 8 other classes in the game, and all have to compete with mechanist literally afking itself to top raider results while providing might, 100% alacity vs 50% of other specs. Accessibilty itself isn't a problem, balancing it is.

In overwatch for instance, certain characters like Winston, Tombjorn and symmetra are given auto aiming abilities to help any player do decent damage and contribute. However, the OW devs are well aware that balancing auto aimed classes around 0.1% of gameplay would have greatly warped consequences. Imagine if a tf2 pyro, for instance, could headshot you with a flamethrower 100 miles away for pressing w+m1, at 95% of the dps of a tf2 aimbot. Sure, the 'aimbot' would have higher dps. But it'd warp the meta because one class would achieve 95% of a 0.1%'s results for 0-20% of the effort. One of the reasons tombjorn's turret was never buffed to say, be as strong as a Bastion or Tf2 turret was they just didn't want gameplay to revolve around a person pressing one button, going afk. and requiring 5x more effort put in than to counter a afk player. 

  

When people compare rewards without costs, they compare stuff like other classes have to give significant portions of dps as well as perform a 10-20 button rotation to provide 50% alacity or one boon. While mechanists can often provide: Might, 2x more alacity (100% vs 50% in a dps alac role OR healing role), which means they flat out just have 2x the payoff. While still keeping most of their dps or barely changing a rotation. 

Some of the low intensity builds listed on youtube also can make impractical trade off just to auto or use 1-4 buttons for 18k-23k dps, such as abilities that literally self damage themselves that would self down themselves without regeneration boons, or removing their only dodge for 1 dps ability (vindicator). The trade offs people are talking about aren't having every piece of cake in a set, but having boons on top of stellar dps and support while also having 1200 range which means in practical terms, nearly every open world arcdps is filled with screens of 1 player in the top 10 being a non mechanist in the 20k range. while 90% of top 10s are.. afk mechanists in the 25k-35k autoattack range. 

Mechanist by design, is balanced on 0.1% player benchmarks on a immobile golem that 90% of gw2 players are drastically below. (The average player, does about 2-4k bottom 25%, 4-10k middle 50%, 10-20k upper 20%, 20-30k upper 5%. 30-35k top 1%) Mechanist literally afks to the routine top #1-10 of every 50 man squad while one lone player might stand out. That's 2% of the population being next to mechanist's autos on a soo won meta.. That's just ridiculous. Now before you say skill issue, i've seen plenty of the same 2-4k dps players switch to mechanist and literally have 25k-35k dps instant results with mechanist. It's the spec, not the player that makes it so powerful. Because it nigh nearly plays itself off autos that often outdpses 10 average Dragon End's open world players doing 2-4k dps.

 

IMO Auto attacking should be balanced around 90% of the average players, not the 0.1% if they wanted to balance the spec. If they wanted to keep the 35k dps on a high effort rotation so it could afk to maybe 15k-20k and do a 5-10 button rotation to 25-35k, that'd be fair. And if they wanted to avoid nerfing core engi, they could easily nerf the mech itself or strip away it's option to provide 100% alacity to 50% to equalize it with other builds, or buff other 50% alacity dps specs to 100%. I think that'd be fair design. But right now, the afk power and performance seem a bit overtuned imo for a 35k dps 1-4 button build with free might and 100% alacity dps builds that provide twice as much alacity for half the effort. 

 

But as of right now, mechanist is a build tailored to autoattack at the benches of the top 1% of other specs.. for 0-20% of the effort. Just like wow arcane mage could be by spamming one button. But it didn't also double it's group's damage by +25% as well too while being able to autocast itself too if it wanted. 

TLDR: You're saying Mechanist does more damage then it should compared to how easy it is to play and how much utility it has?

[Sunchaser.9854]

Kinda in a summary, in a sense.

I don't think rewarding entry level classes are bad, but mechanist is often in a tuned spot where 98% of players playing complex builds don't or on average don't outperform it. Thus making it feel like those classes feel unrewarding to play by comparison.

Even for a game like starcraft where you can have a player at 200-400 apm and another player at 20-50 apm, a massive x20 input difference, you don't have players doing 10% the dps with their marines unless they click 20x more buttons per second to chamber each bullet and stim each marine individually or deal 10% damage.

Thus i feel like for feedback, Mechanist by comparison almost feels like a game of competitive chess where a person is hooked up to a robot that can use autocalculate to 'play' the game for them, often dramatically outperforming most average players, and even sometimes for all that work, it's someone trying to compete just to break even with a afk dps in practicality which is a horrible feeling for the other player. 

 

The build also has many portions that translate directly into raid dps very well with 1200 range, and in the intro what's neat is the first 2-10 seconds, the meter isn't reading 35.5k, but 50-100k first few second burst damage. Which seems to indicate the build which is also bursty, also likely does even better in raid scenarios where say, a boss goes invincible for 5 seconds, a condi has to re ramp 5k to 10k to 20k to 30k dps to re apply all their dots.

The front loaded dps of the mechanist would probably allow them to burst with all the dps in loaded cds (Pausing the timer on the first 2 press has a 1/10th second snapshot of '160k dps' at the first ability use at 0:09, stabalizing to '60k' dps with 130k damage dealt in under 2 seconds. taking about 7 seconds at 350k damage before it falls under 50k burst dps.) The numbers are of course, not sustained, But this probably is why it translates so well into raid mechanics where condi is slowly ramping up 5-15 seconds of torments.

Because it can burst for about 50k dps for the first 7 seconds of combat, (and this is post 'patch/ post nerf' by the way), it seems likely what's going on is mechanist has dps that very easily transfers into real mechanics, while other classes might only be good at hitting a immobile target that does not move or dramatically vary a rotation or have invulnerability phases that clip condi's +5% edge lead with -90-50% torment clips on quick adds kills, or lose 40% of their golem's dps if a boss moves (as it goes 16k to 10k). So balancing on a golem vs raid logs might be also what's leading to the performance gap.

Especially since many challenging gw2 raid mechanics often require full attention on both screen and rotation. And being able to press a rotation that basically amounts to 4 buttons off cd makes it easier to do mechanics. 

In the same video above, there's a scene where golem dps translates into raids. The top dps are 3-5 mechanists once more, but if you take a look, the highest engineer is pulling 35k to 38k to 40k dps. The highest non engineer is a mesmer pulling 20k-25k dps while routinely losing 75% of their health in encounters while the boss is frequently moving out of range likely dipping torment ticks for the revenant if mallyx is used. There's even a spot at 2:16 where the elementalist Bajo, just dies and is one shotted and downed by a mechanic that leaves all the other players 20% alive, potentially indicating they might have major survivalbility issues surviving basic raid aoe the mechanists seem to also be facetanking(?), as well as frequently losing 75% of their hp to unknown mechanics that aren't even hurting the mechanists. I don't play a mech, but is their barrier really that strong that not only is the rotation easier, but they can ignore the one shots that are meant to kill other classes or just mesmers/squishies in general(?). 

It seems like for other classes, there's more than rotation, there seems to be parts when paying attention the piano rotation can kill you, looking away from a mechanic can kill you, and it feels like of all the mmorpgs, gw2 has one of the most fluid combat systems but punishes it the most and one of the most commonly overperforming builds is a class that afks it.

But a real question is. Do you buff all the other classes to simplify the rotations or buff performance gaps / auto attacks / dps loss abilities in general or nerf the top class to balance, or leave it as is so 90% of players feel a soft urge to all switch to one of 9 classes in the game to provide 70-90% of a 10 man's 7-9 mech, 1-2 firebrand/druid raid comp? 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Sunchaser.9854

[soul.9651]

17 hours ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

 

But a real question is. Do you buff all the other classes to simplify the rotations or buff performance gaps / auto attacks / dps loss abilities in general or nerf the top class to balance, or leave it as is so 90% of players feel a soft urge to all switch to one of 9 classes in the game to provide 70-90% of a 10 man's 7-9 mech, 1-2 firebrand/druid raid comp? 

If they gonna make this game easier and easier they might aswell just rename this game "Mech wars 2 mobile". All of the veteran players who play anything else but mech will leave and all of the mech enjoyers will finally have fun with their autoplay mode on :')

[DaKillaOfHell.5907]

On 8/7/2022 at 12:38 AM, Zok.4956 said:

I have a different perception: There have been many complaints and criticisms about poor balancing in GW2 for years. Bad balancing is also the reason why the (quit big at the time) PvP szene left the game several years ago when Anet still had E-sports ambitions with the game. etc. etc.

Maybe this criticism is now just more focused and visible for some because of Mechanist LI build beeing such an outlier (and because of the other things I wrote about previously).

 

I think the point goes way deeper than just "balancing".

 

Overall, the trait design, especially for Elite specs, just broke all the game content thoroughly.

 

Totally new mechanics and "not" overworked core classes won't work out well. In some cases, we have very underperforming classes, while in other cases, like with Mech, we have totally overperformance with ZERO tradeoffs. 

Assume there wouldn't be Mech, what you can see clearly at gw2 wingman before EoD came out.

 

It doesn't change the fact that > 2/3 of popularity only consist of some very few specs while others are quietly obliterated with every new update where Anet pulls out the nerf hammer while other classes are buffed extremely. I played since GW 2 Beta, but still think the Balance in core game was far better than everything else as when HoT came out, though it wasn't perfect at all.

[Voyant.1327]

On 8/14/2022 at 8:40 AM, Deepcuts.9740 said:

I have a question for all the mechanist haters. A question involving logic and one I asked several times in squads without anyone actually answering.

Q: If the mechanist is so LI/easy/accessible to play and deal great DPS, why many times in squads with several mechanists we see such a large DPS difference between them? If all it takes is press 1 to win as many "knowledgeable" fellow players state, why the big DPS difference?

For people not using arcdps or for those that did not notice, the difference between top mechanist DPS and lowest DPS mechanist can be as high as 15-20K.

Gear.