Reason why classes suck

[ManaPotato.3279]

New systems like quickness, alacrity and barrier were introduced and game became built around them, meanwhile classes made prior were left out and became outdated.

 

It's obvious that classes need to be remade around these new systems to compete again. And not the other way around like its now.

 

So unless new systems and boons are given to everyone or removed entirely, this mess will last.

 

And for this to happen, devs need to re-learn how classes other than guardian, engineer and necro work.

Edited August 5, 2022 by ManaPotato.3279

[Valisha.8650]

Nerf scourge's dps and give it alac on shades.

[Chips.7968]

52 minutes ago, ManaPotato.3279 said:

New systems like quickness, alacrity and barrier were introduced and game became built around them, meanwhile classes made prior were left out and became outdated.

 

It's obvious that classes need to be remade around these new systems to compete again. And not the other way around like its now.

Woah there, now slow down cowboy! Lets change the perspective on this slightly...

We play the game, but the company Anet is about making money. You are looking from a players perspective ONLY.

How can you make cash? Gems and expansions. How best to sell expansions (specifically, the latest one). Why, you make prior classes "obsolete" - well, not quite obsolete else people wouldn't follow an upgrade path from free to fully paid up whale with 1200 minis, mount skins, weapon skins, unnecessary boosters and more. But you make them uncompetitive in the competitive environment; well, largely anyway. But you get my drift. Start looking with that mindset and perhaps things will be clearer.

So what possible motivation would *they* have to ugprade old stuff which isn't worth any financial incentive or gain, and may reduce or remove upgrade temptations... and probably cause complaints by people suddenly not dominating on the new stuff.

[Valisha.8650]

19 minutes ago, Chips.7968 said:

So what possible motivation would *they* have to ugprade old stuff which isn't worth any financial incentive or gain, and may reduce or remove upgrade temptations... and probably cause complaints by people suddenly not dominating on the new stuff.

People who main old elite specs can still make purchases in gem store. In fact, sales of DLCs made exclusively because of new elite specs are most likely a minor % of anet's overall income. Most people buy EoD for its actual content, not to obtain some overpowered new spec. In some cases, the new ones are outright inferior to the old ones, such as willbender vs firebrand, vindicator vs renegade, and so on.

Besides all of that - Do I REALLY have to explain to you why planned obsolescence in an MMORPG game is a huge gunk of a business plan, that would backfire immensely sooner or later?

[Dadnir.5038]

Quickness isn't anything new thought. Worse, originally it gave +100% attack speed instead of +50%.

In the vanilla game, the average time for killing your average "end game" boss in a daily dungeon group was, what? Maybe 20s...

One have to keep in mind that in the vanilla game there were basically 1 role: dps (as the dps provided all the support necessary to finish the fight quickly anyway). Since then the devs started to actually have players look for something else than just plain and boring damage. Sure, this is changes that gradually take place over more than 7 years but this is certainly not a bad thing compared to what the game's PvE meta was in the vanilla game.

[otto.5684]

I am calling bull kitten. PvP aside, which balance wise has been garbage since Feb 2020, every class has at least 1 power dps and 1 condi build that is at least decent in pve. Most classes have multiple viable dps builds. And most of them have at least 1 support build.

 

There are balance issues. Significant balance issues for some builds/elites. But far from sucks.

[Voyant.1327]

You can see the difference between classes with good development and after thoughts easily.

There are so many trait lines that are near non-existent or counter intuitive. Two classes can have a near identical ability but one classes version is far superior. Abilities taken from other classes, etc.

It be nice to be able to play what you want to because things are well balanced. We were a lot closer before the Jun 28th patch but when they introduced the "boons for all" it definitely set us further from that goal. 

Everyone sits here and emphasizes the dps but there's so much more to it. People want classes with uniqueness and competitive balance. Sure untamed is killing it in dps right now, but they'll get a nerf, and then its all these dps mixed in with Firebrand doing almost the same dps with support. 

Balance its nowhere close right now. Just look at a t4 fractal: Firebrand, Necro, Untamed, Mech maybe a Mesmer. Repeat. Maybe 5 specs represented in the most casually accessible endgame content. 

There is no clear direction on what this game is trying to do for class balance. It all seems reactionary without understanding how things work together on most specs. Latest patch: Warrior/Mesmer changes make very little sense. Mechanist changes in depth with logical decisions because they understand the spec in and out.

It is painfully obvious to the point where it feels near intentional shade to the player base. 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Voyant.1327

[DeceiverX.8361]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Quickness isn't anything new thought. Worse, originally it gave +100% attack speed instead of +50%.

In the vanilla game, the average time for killing your average "end game" boss in a daily dungeon group was, what? Maybe 20s...

One have to keep in mind that in the vanilla game there were basically 1 role: dps (as the dps provided all the support necessary to finish the fight quickly anyway). Since then the devs started to actually have players look for something else than just plain and boring damage. Sure, this is changes that gradually take place over more than 7 years but this is certainly not a bad thing compared to what the game's PvE meta was in the vanilla game.

I mean it also used to not be a boon and concentration/boon duration increases weren't a stat outside of doubloons, either.

Quickness is also "just damage" in the end by doubling animation speed.  If you're under the effects of permanent quickness, it's more or less the same as having all attacks deal 50% more damage.

Honestly boon stacking defeats the purpose of the boons themselves.  These effects could be made fields/finishers or static buffs and also not utterly break the game wherein the only things that will ever matter are capping offensive boons and raw damage afterward.

[JTGuevara.9018]

7 hours ago, ManaPotato.3279 said:

New systems like quickness, alacrity and barrier were introduced and game became built around them, meanwhile classes made prior were left out and became outdated.

 

It's obvious that classes need to be remade around these new systems to compete again. And not the other way around like its now.

 

So unless new systems and boons are given to everyone or removed entirely, this mess will last.

 

And for this to happen, devs need to re-learn how classes other than guardian, engineer and necro work.

True, but you're not getting to the heart of the matter. The reason classes suck is because they don't have consistent roles. There's no established overall baseline on what classes should do and should not do. And overall, there's no established combat design or philosophy to dictate how classes should interact with one another. This has been the flaw of the game since its inception. And whatever "role" is pitched at players, it all ends up being changed anyway with the next elite spec or developer team that's hired!

For example, warrior's recent update for banners. This has generally been received well. Warriors now have a baseline for a support role. But then that brings more questions: What is warrior's current role and place in a game that's already over-saturated with boons?

And that's what's worrying. BECAUSE there is no consistent combat design in this game, Anet is just throwing darts at the wall and seeing what sticks. And you got players CONSTANTLY meandering and debating about systems and darts being thrown at the wall.

That's why I say that the de-facto philosophy of gw2 is "everybody does everything at their own expense" which leads pretty much to barely distinguishable if not homogenous classes. It feels less of an RPG.

Edited August 5, 2022 by JTGuevara.9018
typo

[Dadnir.5038]

37 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

I mean it also used to not be a boon and concentration/boon duration increases weren't a stat outside of doubloons, either.

Quickness is also "just damage" in the end by doubling animation speed.  If you're under the effects of permanent quickness, it's more or less the same as having all attacks deal 50% more damage.

Honestly boon stacking defeats the purpose of the boons themselves.  These effects could be made fields/finishers or static buffs and also not utterly break the game wherein the only things that will ever matter are capping offensive boons and raw damage afterward.

If they made them field/finisher or even static buff, the players would just do their utmost to get the best uptime. You'd still have the "best providers/generators" favored over the less effective. All in all we would be in nearly the same situation than the current one, except these buffs wouldn't be "boons". I say nearly because professions that are lacking the proper finisher or relying on skills laying "parasite fields" would just be kicked out of the groups. All in all, the playerbase would experience a peak of toxicity.

[itspomf.9523]

Let's go down the rabbit hole:  nerf all boons back to 2014 levels.

[Angesombre.4630]

I think some people will disagree with me, but removing quickness and alac would make it much easier to balance CDs or attack speed of classes.
It would even make it easier to have a variety of classes in the HL content.

If some people think that this is not possible, Anet has already removed retaliation and modified resistance and torment ok it's an alteration, but it's still a change.

[otto.5684]

6 hours ago, itspomf.9523 said:

Let's go down the rabbit hole:  nerf all boons back to 2014 levels.

Why? So we have slow kitten boring game play? No thanks.

[GWstinkt.6094]

20 hours ago, ManaPotato.3279 said:

So unless new systems and boons are given to everyone or removed entirely, this mess will last.

They have been working on giving all classes access to healing, boons and dps for a while now. They are still working on it.

Just recently we had:

 - Alac for Ranger
 - Quickness for Revenant
 - Quickness for Warrior
 

Guild Wars has 3 distinct roles. DPS, Boons, Healing. Having these roles is great, because it gives everyone reasons to build for different gear, different traits, different skills and weapons being used. But there are indeed some classes that have historically been quite one dimensional in their role, that fell behind current trends. But Anet is clearly trying and already actively working on giving everyone access to multiple play and build styles.

[Dadnir.5038]

3 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

Why? So we have slow kitten boring game play? No thanks.

Don't want 100% attack speed burst from quickness and unlimited stab stacks until your stab duration run out? You don't miss retaliation damage? All condi immunity with resistance? 66% CD reduction with alacrity? 100% endurance regeneration rate from vigor?

People just have no clue what they wish, many boons have been watered down quite a bit since they were released, In fact I don't think any boon have been buffed.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Karagee.6830]

solar

[draxynnic.3719]

21 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

I mean it also used to not be a boon and concentration/boon duration increases weren't a stat outside of doubloons, either.

Quickness is also "just damage" in the end by doubling animation speed.  If you're under the effects of permanent quickness, it's more or less the same as having all attacks deal 50% more damage.

Honestly boon stacking defeats the purpose of the boons themselves.  These effects could be made fields/finishers or static buffs and also not utterly break the game wherein the only things that will ever matter are capping offensive boons and raw damage afterward.

Technically speaking, it doesn't even increase damage by a flat 50% (unless you're just autoattacking) because any cooldown skills you're using for cooldown won't be available any faster. You'll get more autoattacks in and you'll fit more damage skills into any burst windows you might have, but generally the effect will be less than 50% (but still a lot).

[anbujackson.9564]

Without meaningful utility that spreads you from the masses, your class or build is unlikely to be played.

You are always playing what is better.

Its the same for dps. I just experienced it myself. I really enjoy power holosmith. And out of boredom I compared my dps on the golem with mech, while not really having any clue about power mech (not that you need it anyway). I performed better half clueless than tryharding holo. Even if builds work, seeing the difference is just frustrating.

Edited August 6, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[ManaPotato.3279]

On 8/6/2022 at 5:58 AM, Angesombre.4630 said:

I think some people will disagree with me, but removing quickness and alac would make it much easier to balance CDs or attack speed of classes.
It would even make it easier to have a variety of classes in the HL content.

If some people think that this is not possible, Anet has already removed retaliation and modified resistance and torment ok it's an alteration, but it's still a change.

 

I am all down to complete removal of quickness and alac. These two boons are incredibly toxic and pose balance nightmare.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Classes suck because everything looks like this:

Example A: Knock down your opponent, duration: 1sec, casting time: 0.5sec, cooldown: 60sec. (Has a bug where it doesn't function properly.)

Example B: Blow your opponent across the map, immobilise them in place until they use an emote then mark everyone around you for death. If they're using a skill then apply all conditions to them and all boons to yourself. duration: 30sec, casting time: instant, cooldown: 15sec. (Does damage in PvP due to an oversight.)

 

Devs: "These are the same skills".

 

Real examples:

Engineer signets vs signets from any other class.

Firebrand mantras vs Mesmer mantras.

Dragonhunter traps vs Ranger traps and Thief "preparations".

Pre-buff Warrior banners vs Ranger spirits.

 

There's many, many more, and its not just old classes, it affects newer classes sometimes too, which is what makes some specs better than others.

 

There seems to be two conflicting design priciples in the game being put forth into balance:

Either that each skill, trait, weapon, etc. should do only one thing, do it well and have noticeable tells, counterplay and so on, or a skill should just be spammy whammy damage, CC and boon jammy and should make up 90% of the functionality of a kit.

 

Let's take a look at Scourge. Its a very, very good class, and has excellent support that can carry groups easily. But all it gives is barrier, cleanses and some Might. Machinist can do all those things plus high DPS, boon spam (including a key boon) and so on at the same time. Literally the only reason Scourge is still taken by groups i because Machinist can't play the mercy role because their Elixer R toolbelt AoE revive skill isn't accessible while specced into Mach. One single tradeoff in a seas of endless benefits.

 

Why does this duality in class design exist? Why does it keep being put forth into the game?

Edited August 8, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[ThunderX.6591]

Scourge even in support mode (sand give barrier, done support mode) can outdps a support Mecha, but noone say anything about it cause you need to "target" with the sand.......

I mean, i see always people asking only nerfs all the time instead of asking to buffs the "not so good classes"......... why? Who know..........

Oh right, as the last buff to Soulbeast demonstrate, you simple need to up some weapons coefficient for a fast fix to some "not so good classes", so i don't think asking for buffs is so "hard to code or exceptionally time consuming".

Edited August 8, 2022 by ThunderX.6591

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

3 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

Scourge even in support mode (sand give barrier, done support mode) can outdps a support Mecha, but noone say anything about it cause you need to "target" with the sand.......

I mean, i see always people asking only nerfs all the time instead of asking to buffs the "not so good classes"......... why? Who know..........

Oh right, as the last buff to Soulbeast demonstrate, you simple need to up some weapons coefficient for a fast fix to some "not so good classes", so i don't think asking for buffs is so "hard to code or exceptionally time consuming".

Players don't ask for buffs anymore because every time the devs just give us more damage powercreep. They don't seem to understand the game is about utility, not DPS, but the more players ask for good utility kits to go with their class, the more the balance team just buffs damage instead, leading to the current situation where DPS is out of control and most content is trivalised even without bringing much utility.

 

I mean, the current meta for 5man is 4 DPS with one providing Alacrity or Quickness and then 1 healer providing the other boon that the rest of the party didn't bring, that's it. Your damage players don't have to do anything, anymore besides press buttons and watch the numbers go up.

 

Your healer is also expected to be a quasi-DPS in Harrier or similar gear.

 

We ran Arah with five Machinists recently, with no skips whatsoever. We didn't have to bring any utility, no stealth, no one had to spec into Alacrity or healing, it just wasn't necessary. We just targetted enemies and shot them all to hell and 100% cleared all paths in under an hour. Nothing left alive. Melee enemies were dead before they could even attack a player, because the damage output was just that high.

 

"But that's the same as back in Core!", but no, clearing this content in the core game with all DPS required using lots of combos, lots of utility and lots of melee-only tactics. (That's why Mesmer was meta.)

Edited August 9, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Serephen.3420]

16 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Classes suck because everything looks like this:

Example A: Knock down your opponent, duration: 1sec, casting time: 0.5sec, cooldown: 60sec. (Has a bug where it doesn't function properly.)

Example B: Blow your opponent across the map, immobilise them in place until they use an emote then mark everyone around you for death. If they're using a skill then apply all conditions to them and all boons to yourself. duration: 30sec, casting time: instant, cooldown: 15sec. (Does damage in PvP due to an oversight.)

 

Devs: "These are the same skills".

 

Real examples:

Engineer signets vs signets from any other class.

Firebrand mantras vs Mesmer mantras.

Dragonhunter traps vs Ranger traps and Thief "preparations".

Pre-buff Warrior banners vs Ranger spirits.

 

There's many, many more, and its not just old classes, it affects newer classes sometimes too, which is what makes some specs better than others.

 

There seems to be two conflicting design priciples in the game being put forth into balance:

Either that each skill, trait, weapon, etc. should do only one thing, do it well and have noticeable tells, counterplay and so on, or a skill should just be spammy whammy damage, CC and boon jammy and should make up 90% of the functionality of a kit.

 

Let's take a look at Scourge. Its a very, very good class, and has excellent support that can carry groups easily. But all it gives is barrier, cleanses and some Might. Machinist can do all those things plus high DPS, boon spam (including a key boon) and so on at the same time. Literally the only reason Scourge is still taken by groups i because Machinist can't play the mercy role because their Elixer R toolbelt AoE revive skill isn't accessible while specced into Mach. One single tradeoff in a seas of endless benefits.

 

Why does this duality in class design exist? Why does it keep being put forth into the game?

This

 

2 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Players don't ask for buffs anymore because every time the devs just give us more damage powercreep. They don't seem to understand the game is about utility, not DPS, but the more players ask for good utility kits to go with their class, the more the balance team just buffs damage instead, leading to the current situation where DPS is out of control and most content is trivalised even without bringing much utility.

 

I mean, the current meta for 5man is 4 DPS with one providing Alacrity or Quickness and then 1 healer providing the other boon that the rest of the party didn't bring, that's it. Your damage players don't have to do anything, anymore besides press buttons and watch the numbers go up.

 

Your healer is also expected to be a quasi-DPS in Harrier or similar gear.

 

We ran Arah with five Machinists recently, with no skips whatsoever. We didn't have to bring any utility, no stealth, no one had to spec into Alacrity or healing, it just wasn't necessary. We just targetted enemies and shot them all to hell and 100% cleared all paths in under an hour. Nothing left alive. Melee enemies were dead before they could even attack a player, because the damage output was just that high.

 

"But that's the same as back in Core!", but no, clearing this content in the core game with all DPS required using lots of combos, lots of utility and lots of melee-only tactics. (That's why Mesmer was meta.)

And this

[Sahne.6950]

Anyone remember Quickness and alac being a "chrono-only" thing.... you know... class identity... manipulating time....

 

class identity is non existent....   thats why it sucks.

back in the day, certain professions would shine, because they were the only one being able to do certain things... Thiefs were stealthy and mobile... Elementalist was god of combofields... Ranger went BRRRR

 

but nowadays... your getting chased by guardians as thief...     The thief then popps into shroud....  meanwhile a Ranger is teleporting on you.....   And chrono is just like...... wait... why does a engineer provide "my boon, alac" better than i can!?

 

nowadays we have this unionized...glob... of specialisations... that all want to be able to provide the same boons... while doing the same damage...... and fill the same roles.

The "state of balance" is reached, when every profession can deal the exact same dps in all the diffrent scenarios, and every class can be played as power/condi/support...  which is just outright utopia.

back in the day specs were doing diffrent dps... and that was okey, because you needed diffrent specs to have a solid comp. Nowadays almost any profession can fill the holes the group needs, thus it has condensed down to: how deals the most dps, and who is doing that the easiest and most consistent.

the design philosophy is completly gone. People just chase some weird "golem-benchmarks" and anything that can deal 1k dps more than the rest needs a hefty nerf.... zZzZzZ

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Dadnir.5038]

On 8/9/2022 at 10:09 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

Anyone remember Quickness and alac being a "chrono-only" thing....

This is true for alacrity but not for quickness. Guardian could already provide quickness before chrono was released while every professions could already get quickness by themself through various mean (when they released guardian's group quickness, 'feel my wrath!" there was the symbolic avenger's short lived bug where each symbol gave an additional damage increase... I've never seen tequatl melt that fast... It was awesome!).