Remove Mesmer Portal from PvP

[Razor.6392]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Mesmer portal is our very last and final mechanic. It's on a 72 second cool down. This is a learn to play issue. Portal does no damage, in contrast to Sand Swell and it's already rather heavily nerfed.

My impression is that there is a general hatred of Mesmer.

How is this a learn to play issue? How do you learn to play and counter the portal mechanic?

Stop using buzzwords please.

[Ithilwen.1529]

@Razor.6392 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Mesmer portal is our very last and final mechanic. It's on a 72 second cool down.

This is a learn to play issue.

Portal does no damage, in contrast to Sand Swell and it's already rather heavily nerfed.

My impression is that there is a general hatred of Mesmer.

How is this a learn to play issue? How do you learn to play and counter the portal mechanic?

Stop using buzzwords please.

First the skill is on a 72 second cool down. Any skill on that long a cool down is going to be hard to call OP. It's only really used in specific circumstances that are easily predicted. A skilled player should have an idea of when / where it's coming.

Second the skill has already undergone major nerfs to it's escape potential. For example, Revenant attacks will actually follow you through a portal. Oh, and the Mesmer is teleporting completely blind. They have no idea what's on the other end, Necro marks or a warrior waiting with stunlock. The exit portal changes color, alerting anyone nearby that the Mesmer is coming.

What other skill in GW2 actually gives an advantage to the enemy? OH, I know... for quite a while [Time Warp], another Mesmer skill, buffed the enemy by extending the duration of their skills.

Third this idea that it can be used for team mobility is largely a myth. In 5+ years, I've never had a PvP team actually use a portal set up for that purpose. The odd teammate, yes.. but never a team group. My team usually even ignores rescue portals. Unless you're on a full tryhard team.. this simply doesn't happen.

Fourth, Portal does no damage. It's hard to call a skill that does 0 damage or heal and no buffs OP.

This is a case of people being upset by a good play, ( or a lucky one.)

[OriOri.8724]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@Razor.6392 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Mesmer portal is our very last and final mechanic. It's on a 72 second cool down.

This is a learn to play issue.

Portal does no damage, in contrast to Sand Swell and it's already rather heavily nerfed.

My impression is that there is a general hatred of Mesmer.

How is this a learn to play issue? How do you learn to play and counter the portal mechanic?

Stop using buzzwords please.

First the skill is on a

72 second

cool down. Any skill on that long a cool down is going to be hard to call OP. It's only really used in specific circumstances that are easily predicted. A skilled player should have an idea of when / where it's coming.

Second the skill has already undergone major nerfs to it's escape potential. For example, Revenant attacks will actually follow you through a portal. Oh, and the Mesmer is teleporting completely blind. They have no idea what's on the other end, Necro marks or a warrior waiting with stunlock.

The exit portal changes color, alerting anyone nearby that the Mesmer is coming.

What other skill in GW2 actually gives an advantage to the enemy? OH, I know... for quite a while [Time Warp], another Mesmer skill, buffed the enemy by extending the duration of their skills.

Third this idea that it can be used for team mobility is largely a myth. In 5+ years, I've never had a PvP team actually use a portal set up for that purpose. The odd teammate, yes.. but never a team group. My team usually even ignores rescue portals. Unless you're on a full tryhard team.. this simply doesn't happen.

Fourth, Portal does no damage. It's hard to call a skill that does 0 damage or heal and no buffs OP.

This is a case of people being upset by a good play, ( or a lucky one.)

Just stop. I'm a mesmer main and its painful to see you throw out such baseless arguments. I don't think portal is anywhere near OP, nor should it be removed, but your comment here is awful. Moa is on a 180 sec CD, yet people still manage to complain about it being OP, so your CD argument is baseless.

Portal has not had any nerfs to its "escape potential", period. Not only is revenant not 2 years old as a class, but way back in S1 there were videos of mesmers showing you how you could use that against the Rev, to leave them stranded off the point so you can decap/cap it. Its all up to how intelligently you use portal.

Not knowing whats on the other side of the portal? Well marks and traps you can't know, but you can see on the minimap if a player is hanging around, waiting for you to pop out of the portal.

I'm really not sure how TW is even relevant to this discussion. Period.

Team mobility via portal is all about team coordination. Obviously if no one is on teamspeak/discord, then teh potential for the team as a whole to use portal effectively is pretty much nil.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Morwath.9817 said:First they came for the Diamond Skin, and I did not speak out—Because I was not an Elementalist.

Then they came for the Deathly Chill, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Necromancer.

Then they came for the Ventari Healers, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Revenant.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

~Martin Niemöller

I can't believe you left out turrets. And gyros.

[Ithilwen.1529]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@Razor.6392 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Mesmer portal is our very last and final mechanic. It's on a 72 second cool down.

This is a learn to play issue.

Portal does no damage, in contrast to Sand Swell and it's already rather heavily nerfed.

My impression is that there is a general hatred of Mesmer.

How is this a learn to play issue? How do you learn to play and counter the portal mechanic?

Stop using buzzwords please.

First the skill is on a

72 second

cool down. Any skill on that long a cool down is going to be hard to call OP. It's only really used in specific circumstances that are easily predicted. A skilled player should have an idea of when / where it's coming.

Second the skill has already undergone major nerfs to it's escape potential. For example, Revenant attacks will actually follow you through a portal. Oh, and the Mesmer is teleporting completely blind. They have no idea what's on the other end, Necro marks or a warrior waiting with stunlock.

The exit portal changes color, alerting anyone nearby that the Mesmer is coming.

What other skill in GW2 actually gives an advantage to the enemy? OH, I know... for quite a while [Time Warp], another Mesmer skill, buffed the enemy by extending the duration of their skills.

Third this idea that it can be used for team mobility is largely a myth. In 5+ years, I've never had a PvP team actually use a portal set up for that purpose. The odd teammate, yes.. but never a team group. My team usually even ignores rescue portals. Unless you're on a full tryhard team.. this simply doesn't happen.

Fourth, Portal does no damage. It's hard to call a skill that does 0 damage or heal and no buffs OP.

This is a case of people being upset by a good play, ( or a lucky one.)

Just stop. I'm a mesmer main and its painful to see you throw out such baseless arguments. I don't think portal is anywhere near OP, nor should it be removed, but your comment here is awful. Moa is on a 180 sec CD, yet people still manage to complain about it being OP, so your CD argument is baseless.

The fact that non Mesmers complain about Moa, despite it's CD, actually supports my point. Moa is not OP. It's been nerfed so hard that it's seldom seen. Yet, it still draws complaints. Clearly, the complaints are not truly based on the skill being OP. Rather it's the simple dislike of the skill. I'd argue that the same is true here.

Portal has not had any nerfs to its "escape potential", period. Not only is revenant not 2 years old as a class, but way back in S1 there were videos of mesmers showing you how you could use that against the Rev, to leave them stranded off the point so you can decap/cap it. Its all up to how intelligently you use portal.

Revenant, ( and if I'm not mistaken, ranger pets, ) being able to follow through the portal and continue to attack was a direct nerf to portal and it's escape potential. What do you mean?

Not knowing whats on the other side of the portal? Well marks and traps you can't know, but you can see on the minimap if a player is hanging around, waiting for you to pop out of the portal.

The mini map doesn't show enemy players if they are not within sight of a team mate. This is sophistry. They know you're coming, ( the portal changes color, ) and you don't know they're there. That's how an intelligent player works around portal.

I'm really not sure how TW is even relevant to this discussion. Period.

Another example of a skill that helped the enemy,( by prolonging skills such as Mesmer main hand sword 2.) Portal actually helps the Revenant or Ranger in many cases. Your last resort escape fails.

Team mobility via portal is all about team coordination. Obviously if no one is on teamspeak/discord, then teh potential for the team as a whole to use portal effectively is pretty much nil.

And team mobility is one of the primary complaints against portal. Thank you for agreeing.

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

Getting number advantage using portal is kinda meh in GW2, and really daredevil or class with good mobility can get similar number advantage or shut down mesmer. Heck before spellbreaker got nerfed you have useless mesmer portals and thieves because double spellbreaker nullify the whole point of +1.

On other note you can still see plenty of streams where the mesmer will use portal for teammate to get OOC etc. But in practice whenever I use that I literally have to type "ooc" when seeing a critically low teammate, and chances are they die before they hop in :/

Its not really a skill that can be balanced, as it can be both a terrible and a great skill. All depends on what happen during that match and how well your teammate/enemy goes, so its unpredictable. But its also because of this unpredictable that made matches interesting, turning PvP into more than just "1 home, 4 mid" or whatever.

[Razor.6392]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@Razor.6392 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Mesmer portal is our very last and final mechanic. It's on a 72 second cool down.

This is a learn to play issue.

Portal does no damage, in contrast to Sand Swell and it's already rather heavily nerfed.

My impression is that there is a general hatred of Mesmer.

How is this a learn to play issue? How do you learn to play and counter the portal mechanic?

Stop using buzzwords please.

First the skill is on a

72 second

cool down. Any skill on that long a cool down is going to be hard to call OP. It's only really used in specific circumstances that are easily predicted. A skilled player should have an idea of when / where it's coming.

Second the skill has already undergone major nerfs to it's escape potential. For example, Revenant attacks will actually follow you through a portal. Oh, and the Mesmer is teleporting completely blind. They have no idea what's on the other end, Necro marks or a warrior waiting with stunlock.

The exit portal changes color, alerting anyone nearby that the Mesmer is coming.

What other skill in GW2 actually gives an advantage to the enemy? OH, I know... for quite a while [Time Warp], another Mesmer skill, buffed the enemy by extending the duration of their skills.

Third this idea that it can be used for team mobility is largely a myth. In 5+ years, I've never had a PvP team actually use a portal set up for that purpose. The odd teammate, yes.. but never a team group. My team usually even ignores rescue portals. Unless you're on a full tryhard team.. this simply doesn't happen.

Fourth, Portal does no damage. It's hard to call a skill that does 0 damage or heal and no buffs OP.

This is a case of people being upset by a good play, ( or a lucky one.)

I know how portal works. I'm still waiting on the counterplay and l2p tips. Can this be avoided? Can you work around it if they have a mesmer and you don't?

Note that I don't want it nerfed, it's just that maybe you shouldn't use big words if you don't know how to properly back them up.

[Ithilwen.1529]

@Razor.6392 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@Razor.6392 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Mesmer portal is our very last and final mechanic. It's on a 72 second cool down.

This is a learn to play issue.

Portal does no damage, in contrast to Sand Swell and it's already rather heavily nerfed.

My impression is that there is a general hatred of Mesmer.

How is this a learn to play issue? How do you learn to play and counter the portal mechanic?

Stop using buzzwords please.

First the skill is on a

72 second

cool down. Any skill on that long a cool down is going to be hard to call OP. It's only really used in specific circumstances that are easily predicted. A skilled player should have an idea of when / where it's coming.

Second the skill has already undergone major nerfs to it's escape potential. For example, Revenant attacks will actually follow you through a portal. Oh, and the Mesmer is teleporting completely blind. They have no idea what's on the other end, Necro marks or a warrior waiting with stunlock.

The exit portal changes color, alerting anyone nearby that the Mesmer is coming.

What other skill in GW2 actually gives an advantage to the enemy? OH, I know... for quite a while [Time Warp], another Mesmer skill, buffed the enemy by extending the duration of their skills.

Third this idea that it can be used for team mobility is largely a myth. In 5+ years, I've never had a PvP team actually use a portal set up for that purpose. The odd teammate, yes.. but never a team group. My team usually even ignores rescue portals. Unless you're on a full tryhard team.. this simply doesn't happen.

Fourth, Portal does no damage. It's hard to call a skill that does 0 damage or heal and no buffs OP.

This is a case of people being upset by a good play, ( or a lucky one.)

I know how portal works. I'm still waiting on the counterplay and l2p tips. Can this be avoided? Can you work around it if they have a mesmer and you don't?

Note that I don't want it nerfed, it's just that maybe you shouldn't use big words if you don't know how to properly back them up.

I have just given a counterplay method, ( beyond the long CD and the fact that the skill won't be used often.) Let me repeat for you:

The teleport is blind. It's also likely to be used in a predictable fashion. Here's an oversimplified scenario; The Mesmer is contesting far and needs or wants to withdraw, perhaps to support Mid. They leave a portal behind. It is now available for 60 seconds.

Now, very likely, the Mesmer is hoping you'll leave the point and they can pop back and decap. You will know if they open a second portal, because the one near the point will glow brightly. The Mesmer now has 10 seconds maximum to use the portal or it's gone and the CD wasted.

Shortly before the Mesmer arrives the portal will change color, giving you more than enough time to execute your aoe rotation and/or gain might etc. In addition, the Mesmer is likely to be low on cd's and / or health when they arrive and they have no idea whether you're there. You may well one-shot them. You know exactly where they'll be in a moment,( the center of the portal.)

You simply have to make a decision, based on circumstances. Is it better to guard the point or does your team need you elsewhere? This is a "learn to play" situation.

I don't know how to be much more explicit. I do, however, recommend that you read my responses. I don't use words that I don't understand.

[Lighter.5631]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@Razor.6392 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@Razor.6392 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Mesmer portal is our very last and final mechanic. It's on a 72 second cool down.

This is a learn to play issue.

Portal does no damage, in contrast to Sand Swell and it's already rather heavily nerfed.

My impression is that there is a general hatred of Mesmer.

How is this a learn to play issue? How do you learn to play and counter the portal mechanic?

Stop using buzzwords please.

First the skill is on a

72 second

cool down. Any skill on that long a cool down is going to be hard to call OP. It's only really used in specific circumstances that are easily predicted. A skilled player should have an idea of when / where it's coming.

Second the skill has already undergone major nerfs to it's escape potential. For example, Revenant attacks will actually follow you through a portal. Oh, and the Mesmer is teleporting completely blind. They have no idea what's on the other end, Necro marks or a warrior waiting with stunlock.

The exit portal changes color, alerting anyone nearby that the Mesmer is coming.

What other skill in GW2 actually gives an advantage to the enemy? OH, I know... for quite a while [Time Warp], another Mesmer skill, buffed the enemy by extending the duration of their skills.

Third this idea that it can be used for team mobility is largely a myth. In 5+ years, I've never had a PvP team actually use a portal set up for that purpose. The odd teammate, yes.. but never a team group. My team usually even ignores rescue portals. Unless you're on a full tryhard team.. this simply doesn't happen.

Fourth, Portal does no damage. It's hard to call a skill that does 0 damage or heal and no buffs OP.

This is a case of people being upset by a good play, ( or a lucky one.)

I know how portal works. I'm still waiting on the counterplay and l2p tips. Can this be avoided? Can you work around it if they have a mesmer and you don't?

Note that I don't want it nerfed, it's just that maybe you shouldn't use big words if you don't know how to properly back them up.

I have just given a counterplay method, ( beyond the long CD and the fact that the skill won't be used often.) Let me repeat for you:

The teleport is blind. It's also likely to be used in a predictable fashion. Here's an oversimplified scenario; The Mesmer is contesting far and needs or wants to withdraw, perhaps to support Mid. They leave a portal behind. It is now available for 60 seconds.

Now, very likely, the Mesmer is hoping you'll leave the point and they can pop back and decap. You will know if they open a second portal, because the one near the point will glow brightly. The Mesmer now has 10 seconds maximum to use the portal or it's gone and the CD wasted.

Shortly before the Mesmer arrives the portal will change color, giving you more than enough time to execute your aoe rotation and/or gain might etc. In addition, the Mesmer is likely to be low on cd's and / or health when they arrive and they have no idea whether you're there. You may well one-shot them. You know exactly where they'll be in a moment,( the center of the portal.)

You simply have to make a decision, based on circumstances. Is it better to guard the point or does your team need you elsewhere? This is a "learn to play" situation.

I don't know how to be much more explicit. I do, however, recommend that you read my responses. I don't use words that I don't understand.

?....wait on empty point for 60 seconds in hope of mesmer coming back, while your team is having one less man for team fight is "counterplay"?.....jesus

[MyPuppy.8970]

Oh I had a mesmer in solo q dropping a portal at my feet while I was stomping 2 downed in a storm of aoes. I Could safe stomp fine and nicely. I hate fighting mesmers, but I think portal is fine.

[Arheundel.6451]

I am not mesmer and I dislike fighting mirage/chronos...but portal is fine given its CD...I am tired of unjustified nerfs driven by L2P issues and personal drama and I am tired of seeing pointless witchhunting that delete professions from any kind of competition.

NERF DOES NOT MEAN REDUCED TO USELESSNESS

It's a tactical utility : Play around it! For god sake the playerbase in this game good only for zerg play......

[Arheundel.6451]

@Morwath.9817 said:First they came for the Diamond Skin, and I did not speak out—Because I was not an Elementalist.

Then they came for the Deathly Chill, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Necromancer.

Then they came for the Ventari Healers, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Revenant.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

~Martin Niemöller

I wish diamond skin would have been the only unjustied nerf ele received..sadly it's not and those who wanted to see ele out of pvp, got their wish granted in the end after few years

[rank eleven monk.9502]

Here we go again.

[Mr Godlike.6098]

I am against nerfing/removing portal. Let's stop asking for nerfs for skills that require player with IQ and healthy brain cells to use themeffectively.

[Chaith.8256]

Mesmer was very different in the past. Teams that ran Mesmer were required to use Portal to get value from Mesmer equal to other professions. Mesmers had less fighting ability than combat dedicated classes with less mobility and utility. Mesmer was very n00b unfriendly as they required cooperation and rotational knowledge. You REALLY had to be a student of the game to play Mesmer effectively in PvP, which is why it was such a rarity for players to excel at it in high end competition, like World Tournament Series. There were 1-2 EU teams who built their entire strategies around weaving portals and using them to rotate, and it was competitive - the darkside was that it was at times less room for mis-rotations than maximizing your team's fighting ability.

After HoT, Chronomancer gained top tier individual fighting ability. The teams that had the most experienced Mesmers & could portal rotate as easy as breathing had gained an insanely huge advantage, as Mesmer gave big rotational advantage on top of winning fights. Mesmers whos portals had little to no impact on the game were still viable and I feel as soon as Mesmers could impact fights as equally as less mobile, less utility professions, this would have been a great time to address the eventual truth that portal was a must-have to remain competitive.

In PoF, Mirage still possesses top tier fighting ability, portal is still picked by every team, yet portal plays aren't necessary to run the best fighting strength comps. Portal is mostly used now to allow the side-node watching Mesmer to not need awareness of when they can be decapped (portal back when it gets contested). This usage is insanely lower than its true aggressive value potential. Since you easily win without building around portal rotations, people run Mesmer and engage whatever fight without even worrying about controlling the matchups in their favor with portal, or maximizing their rotation speed.

Now that we're at this point where the Mirage profession is just a head to head fighter, it's time to just embrace that, in my subjective opinion.

My Proposal:

Portal Entre/Exeunt: Re-named to "Lesser Portal Entre". Cooldown reduced from 72s to 30s. Range Threshold decreased from 5,000 to 1,200. When Lesser Portal Exeunt is placed out of range of Portal Entre, send Portal Exeunt on a 4 second cooldown.

Mesmer granted new F5 Skill: Portal Entre/Exeunt.

Added text update to Mirage Adept Minor: "Mirage Cloak": Gain Mirage Cloak instead of dodge rolling. Forego greater portal weaving to gain access to ambush skills while under the effects of Mirage Cloak. Chronomancer's F5 will obviously replace Mesmer's F5.

I'd be keen to see that if with a few more tweaks to the defenses of core Mesmer (Chaos?) if it could return to being the rotational based, high utility spec that it once was. A lesser and greater portal would certainly allow the Mesmer to both allow their team (downstate Eles) to escape fights with lesser portals and control rotations to other far away parts of the map.

[rwolf.9571]

It's always egg on my face when a DH camps my portal with all his traps down XD. Sometimes thief, but not as successful.

Id say portal be less of an issue of players actually held points. But these days it's usually zerging point to point.Id also say portal is only effective half the time. As I usually forget about it, and the portal has expired after those 60 seconds.

I see alot of mesmers in matchmaking these days on both teams. Sometimes 2 v 2 mesmers more often than not. So why should this be an issue now? Both sides have potential ports.

[Khaliel.3918]

Dear ANet,

Please remove ____ it's too hard to play against :bawling:

Sincerely,-Your true pvp players

[OriOri.8724]

@Chaith.8256 I get what you are trying to do, but moving portal to F5 would be huge powercreep to core mesmer. I don't think this would be a good idea.

[Ashgar.3024]

I have no love for Mesmers but i don't think remove classes unique utility skills is a good idea. They could maybe look at its range but beyond that, it shouldn't be nerfed to uselessness.

Mirage's damage output on top of everything else they have is what's making them an issue at the moment.

[Crinn.7864]

@OriOri.8724 said:@Chaith.8256 I get what you are trying to do, but moving portal to F5 would be huge powercreep to core mesmer. I don't think this would be a good idea.

Because core Mesmer is clearly meta.

Power Creep only occurs if something is buffed beyond current power level of the game. Buffing trash specs is not power creep.

[Dreams.3128]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:@Chaith.8256 I get what you are trying to do, but moving portal to F5 would be huge powercreep to core mesmer. I don't think this would be a good idea.

Because core Mesmer is clearly meta.

Power Creep only occurs if something is buffed beyond current power level of the game. Buffing trash specs is not power creep.

That's like buffing Renegade or Weaver and saying it power creep.

Is there some secret op mechanics about these specs I wasn't aware about :^]

[OriOri.8724]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:@Chaith.8256 I get what you are trying to do, but moving portal to F5 would be huge powercreep to core mesmer. I don't think this would be a good idea.

Because core Mesmer is clearly meta.

Power Creep only occurs if something is buffed beyond current power level of the game. Buffing trash specs is not power creep.

Powercreep is adding new functionality without nerfing or removing older functionality. Moving portal to an F5 skill is pure powercreep, by definition. Just because core mesmer hasn't kept up with the powercreep of the rest of hte game doesn't change that fact

[Chaith.8256]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:@Chaith.8256 I get what you are trying to do, but moving portal to F5 would be huge powercreep to core mesmer. I don't think this would be a good idea.

Because core Mesmer is clearly meta.

Power Creep only occurs if something is buffed beyond current power level of the game. Buffing trash specs is not power creep.

Powercreep is adding new functionality without nerfing or removing older functionality. Moving portal to an F5 skill is pure powercreep, by definition. Just because core mesmer hasn't kept up with the powercreep of the rest of hte game doesn't change that fact

By definition? Google it, power creep is introducing content that makes old content underpowered. It's not the same definition as 'buff', as you say. Crinn used the proper definitions and facts on his first response to you, you're using alternate definitions lol

[serialkicker.5274]

Just remove PvP, they will never be happy there.

[Chaith.8256]

@serialkicker.5274 said:Just remove PvP, they will never be happy there.

We'd have deleted Necromancers and WvW long ago too if the happiness of their respective forum posters is what we're going off of