Vindicator in raids?

[Deathleecher.8532]

How is "Vindicator" in raids? Imean when i look at https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks i cant find them :S?

[Baudrillard.4612]

Everything is simple: it’s just not there 🤔

 

There are three Rev builds that are viable in raids: quickness Herald/condi Rene/sup Herald. 
 

Vindicator brings nothing valuable to the table, so we’re basically keep sitting on Herald for the …th year in a row. At least something constant here 😅

[soul.9651]

Its super mediocre in raids, its viable but everything else is just way better if played properly

I mean its supposed to be a selfish dps but compared to other dps choices it just sucks, well after tomorow tho its gonna feel better but still its not gonna be where it should, and the heal option on vindicator just doesnt exist since it cant give quickness nor alac, its just useless.

Edited August 22, 2022 by soul.9651

[Nephalem.8921]

8 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

Its super mediocre in raids, its viable but everything else is just way better if played properly

I mean its supposed to be a selfish dps but compared to other dps choices it just sucks, well after tomorow tho its gonna feel better but still its not gonna be where it should, and the heal option on vindicator just doesnt exist since it cant give quickness nor alac, its just useless.

Its not even mediocre. Its just bad. No cc. reaper level dps on small hitbox. mediocre cleave. no range.

A skill like gs 5 is too limiting. 3k dps difference between big and small hitbox.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 8/23/2022 at 3:49 AM, Nephalem.8921 said:

Its not even mediocre. Its just bad. No cc. reaper level dps on small hitbox. mediocre cleave. no range.

A skill like gs 5 is too limiting. 3k dps difference between big and small hitbox.

Anything that doest tend to provide key perma boon is not playable for the meta standards.

That's because Anet carries to much with the boons and the classes that cant do it are stated "as weak or useless classes", rather than players try to find other team comp that could be as good has meta carry .

The only way to fix this would be pack idiotic boons to stack with the party like theres no tomorow.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

That's because Anet carries to much with the boons the classes that cant do it are stated "as weak or useless classes", rather than players try to find other team comp that could be as good has meta carry .

   Don't fool yourselves with excuses. Currently Willbender doesn't rely in providing quickness/alacrity to team mates, yet works extremely well in both goups/solo as condition dps. You can be a selfish spec and still be practical, instead of just being a Vindi. My condi WB in  Dire + TB kills things ~35% faster than my power Vindi (Dragon + zerk) despite as average only stacks ~18 might compared to 25 with Vindi. It also has 1K more HP (~20.5K and 900+ armor (~3.3K). It also has better mobility, cc and much more versatility in skill selection. Plus two dodges.

   For the sort of things Vindi gives up, it should hit like a nuke. Instead is just a worse core Revenant.

[Aeolus.3615]

10 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Don't fool yourselves with excuses. Currently Willbender doesn't rely in providing quickness/alacrity to team mates, yet works extremely well in both goups/solo as condition dps. You can be a selfish spec and still be practical, instead of just being a Vindi. My condi WB in  Dire + TB kills things ~35% faster than my power Vindi (Dragon + zerk) despite as average only stacks ~18 might compared to 25 with Vindi. It also has 1K more HP (~20.5K and 900+ armor (~3.3K). It also has better mobility, cc and much more versatility in skill selection. Plus two dodges.

   For the sort of things Vindi gives up, it should hit like a nuke. Instead is just a worse core Revenant.

Vindicator also can have perma quickness yet no one cares, on a more serious note  the main issue with vindicator is Viktor legend.

It is just most players are blinded to everything that puts a ton of conditions on target with low effort  or anything that has lots of boons if team share the better, since game is already overloaded with boons.

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

On 8/22/2022 at 9:59 AM, Deathleecher.8532 said:

How is "Vindicator" in raids? Imean when i look at https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks i cant find them :S?

After the recent buffs should be around 34k small hitbox and 37k huge hitbox. It's certainly "good" and definitely viable to play, especially if you know what you're doing with the spec. However, it's not top tier competitive still (and it should be considering what it offers), so it really needs another 2k damage. They just need to buff the Alliance damage skills.

[Aeolus.3615]

16 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

After the recent buffs should be around 34k small hitbox and 37k huge hitbox. It's certainly "good" and definitely viable to play, especially if you know what you're doing with the spec. However, it's not top tier competitive still (and it should be considering what it offers), so it really needs another 2k damage. They just need to buff the Alliance damage skills.

Viktor elite should do what the urn does in gw1 for a starter.

Imagine if Victor instead of having stuff that scales with support stats Viktor becomes diferent, the less health u have more damage u do while holding the urn based on https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Urn_of_Saint_Viktor_(skill) 

When droping the urn  creates something arround this mechanics https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shield_of_Saint_Viktor, make Viktor a boonless defender/offense gameplay, while Arch woud be very very offensive gameplay.

@Buran.3796  i know pretty much that a class dont need all the boons to be good class,  it can even be boonless if the mechanics involved are rewarding enough, but that's not the kind of design Anet does nor the overal playerbase mentality.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Buran.3796]

16 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Vindicator also can have perma quickness yet no one cares, on a more serious note  the main issue with vindicator is Viktor legend.

   You need to be full Diviner (except boots or gauntlets or shoulder armor pieces) + to have Superior Sigil of Concentration in the weapon to reach 100% boon duration (with Fireworks runes). With Scholars runes you won't even reach 100% (maybe with food?).

   That 100% will grant you 8 seconds of quickness via Scavenger Burst, leaving you with 16K HP, 2.2K armor and less than stellar power, crit chances and crit damage values. And the need to spam your jump to generate damage, in a mele build.

  Also disagree about people only caring about big stats of condition damage: power Mechanist (in both mace and rifle variants) is currently extremely popular, whithout the need to deal with wonky gameplay, lack of ranged damage, or cc, or team support.

   But why would a designer care about a profession which doesn't play if the ones they main work well?

[Aeolus.3615]

49 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

(snip)

   But why would a designer care about a profession which doesn't play if the ones they main work well?

That is not a good thinking, i understand that there are priorities but that is not good, with that in mind i would see them just buffing some skills across the board  for pve and vindicator would stay the same in other game modes.

 

[Buran.3796]

29 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

That is not a good thinking, i understand that there are priorities but that is not good, with that in mind i would see them just buffing some skills across the board  for pve and vindicator would stay the same in other game modes.

 

   As sad as it sounds, having a niche to fill with a specific specialization is a bless: a lot of the 27 specs in the game does fulfill 0 roles. Think about it: Firebrand is mandatory in WvW zerging and godlike in instanced PvE, but at PvP is REALLY BAD (I still play it sometimes, I think is a kink on mine).  Mechanist has 2-3 variants which are top tier at PvE, yet is not that good at PvP (since balancing pet classes at that game mode is a mess). Now tell me at what game mode are Chronomancer or Deadeye meta.

   Before EoD only two core professions (Guardian and Necro) were meta at PvP; currently the number of core builds that have a role in PvP is 0: core Guardian is still good, but Tempest auramancer is just better at that role due how much  ranged attacks are used. 

   I don't have any hopes/interest in seing "viable" PvP/WvW versions of Vindicator, the same as Willbender, being designed to lose team support and being a selfish spec, has 0 chances to be "a thing" in WvW zergs, or a PvE healer. Which is fine: not every spec has to have builds which are meta at everything. But seems reasonable to thaink that every spec should have at least a niche in which is good. Vindicator, by nature, is bad at dealing condition damage, ranged damage, and dealing with unpredictable attacks or cc saturatio, so since is already bad suited to fight vs players, or to provide support, why not at least make it to shine as a power PvE dps? That would set Renegade as condi dps for PvE, Vindicator as power dps for PvE, and Herals as best Revenant spec for WvW/PvP and team support. 

   Currently Vindicator does nothing, is only good for roleplaying a schyzo since the voices inside the head...

[Angesombre.4630]

I think we should start by reviewing the features of the vindicator and see for a redesign of the alliance.

I think there are a lot of things to review on it.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[otto.5684]

6 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

After the recent buffs should be around 34k small hitbox and 37k huge hitbox. It's certainly "good" and definitely viable to play, especially if you know what you're doing with the spec. However, it's not top tier competitive still (and it should be considering what it offers), so it really needs another 2k damage. They just need to buff the Alliance damage skills.

I do think it will get another 2k damage. Anet seems to movint everyone below 40k. It is highly unlikely that a power AoE spec will be hitting on the end of the spectrum. What it needs, IMO is 2 things:

 

1) damage on small and large hit boxes should be the same and = 37k. Anet needs to change GS5 to pulses instead of the kitten random aoe.

2) one source of support. Revears rage, instead of being a solo stability it is now a group stability. Nothing crazy like 2 secs.

 

IMO this should give the viability it needs.

[Aeolus.3615]

11 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   As sad as it sounds, having a niche to fill with a specific specialization is a bless: a lot of the 27 specs in the game does fulfill 0 roles. Think about it: Firebrand is mandatory in WvW zerging and godlike in instanced PvE, but at PvP is REALLY BAD (I still play it sometimes, I think is a kink on mine).  Mechanist has 2-3 variants which are top tier at PvE, yet is not that good at PvP (since balancing pet classes at that game mode is a mess). Now tell me at what game mode are Chronomancer or Deadeye meta.

   Before EoD only two core professions (Guardian and Necro) were meta at PvP; currently the number of core builds that have a role in PvP is 0: core Guardian is still good, but Tempest auramancer is just better at that role due how much  ranged attacks are used. 

   I don't have any hopes/interest in seing "viable" PvP/WvW versions of Vindicator, the same as Willbender, being designed to lose team support and being a selfish spec, has 0 chances to be "a thing" in WvW zergs, or a PvE healer. Which is fine: not every spec has to have builds which are meta at everything. But seems reasonable to thaink that every spec should have at least a niche in which is good. Vindicator, by nature, is bad at dealing condition damage, ranged damage, and dealing with unpredictable attacks or cc saturatio, so since is already bad suited to fight vs players, or to provide support, why not at least make it to shine as a power PvE dps? That would set Renegade as condi dps for PvE, Vindicator as power dps for PvE, and Herals as best Revenant spec for WvW/PvP and team support. 

   Currently Vindicator does nothing, is only good for roleplaying a schyzo since the voices inside the head...

Chrono and spellbreakers should be the counter meta towards boon balls and perma quickness groups in, actually in fact quickness should be targeted in 1st place by spellbreakers domes, guess what, warrior dome was nerfed and aoe boons  were increased in game.

Deadeye should be decent at pve damage and picking targets in a pvp enviroment by surprise, the issue is still the same weak class concepts from the developers in terms of diferencing the mechanics of the classes, if i was a class dev i would give deadeye a freaking real  sniper oportunity window strong  trait but with a long ICD something that worths a real 300sec ICD.... contrary to warriors that  since are melee Anet had to remove them even on WvW they are minstrells shout healers with the new elite spec, what a awfull gameplay.

About Herald, yes is way better on team support that many think but shield 5 needs to be a aoe to compensate the heal output lost (was a kinda of a big hit on herald due centaur changes, IMO was a overal nerf  in exchange  tablet free movement) wich was one of the things a power+heal Herald could do quite decent. The recent changes towards Herald were a big heal output  cut in favor of papega quickness share to carry boon balls and players with the boon stacking.

Back to vindicator, it can become an acepted spec out of memezone in every gamemode like u said and well a roleplaying schyzo specialization, Anet just needs to remove Victor from being suppot wanabe and make make Urn work like worked in gw1, vindicator is a joke due the stats conflict of the aliance legends, its another class design mistake, Revenant already has  hybrid power specs Vindicator dont need the skills that scale from healing power, thats actually what is retarding its damage output.

Vindicator dont need to become meta, but needs to become accepted ok spec and  Anet will never buff that much Vindicator cause that will make vindicator have more damage when playing hybrid roles and Having to much discrepancy between pvp pve and wvw skills is somethign that Anet canot afford can u imagine a spec that gets killed by every other spec but in another gamemode is one of the best dps roles??? Having to much descrepancy between gamemode is actually very bad shows how bad the game balance and care* is done.

Care* -  this things should be thinked during class proof of concept cant be RNG or what dev's took for breakfast.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Sereath.1428]

It better do around 40k before even considering it, the fact that you have to burn your only dodge on cd as part of the rotation is what kills the spec for me.

[Aeolus.3615]

4 minutes ago, XxsdgxX.8109 said:

It better do around 40k before even considering it, the fact that you have to burn your only dodge on cd as part of the rotation is what kills the spec for me.

so Vindicator does 40k by just mashing keybord and cant be used in other gamemodes how good is that for the game itself?  its just pve carry and bad design...

Edited August 24, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Jees.5478]

Tbh they just need to change his GS 5 skill now. Than he can hit 35k on all hitboxes and will be playable. But right now I cant get more then 33k on small hitboxes and thats just bad. The huge hitbox is ok because GS5 hits better. 

 

And wtf is the alliance elite skill. Such a bad  elite skill.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Jees.5478

[soul.9651]

3 hours ago, Jees.5478 said:

Tbh they just need to change his GS 5 skill now. Than he can hit 35k on all hitboxes and will be playable. But right now I cant get more then 33k on small hitboxes and thats just bad. The huge hitbox is ok because GS5 hits better. 

 

And wtf is the alliance elite skill. Such a bad  elite skill.

They need to finally buff Archemorus skills and entirely rework the elite ability which feels almost useless in every single game mode, that would be a start..

[Zaret.1450]

vindi has... id say 2 problems, one on each legend.

On archie, the power legend, it lacks dmg, archie is pretty selfish, only boons himself and everything has the same dmg more or less, and thats the issue, with every skill doing similar dmg we dont realy have good dmg skills, spear is a bit higher but not much and gs5 only works on huge hitbox, spear and scavenger have condis that arent needed, they could just make more dmg and would be more usefull, archie also lacks cc, as gs has none and archie himself has 1 but its pretty meh, like a tuned down jade winds that, yeah its usefull but... not enought, also you have a huge dependance on evading to get dmg, wich makes you loose time and ironicaly dmg, because if you dont evade off cd you drop dmg to hell and if you do evade you spend too much up in the moon.

for vicky... it just heals... no realy, it just heals, and that is using your heal and an upkeep that drains your life and doesnt let you heal yourself, the boons, well, almost non existent... how are we suposed to use vik? i think its better to asume were suposed to not use it, and having that skill there so you can missclick and fail miserably... well, i think vindi needs to bw finished, rev itself feels half done some times, but vindi feels like they started, changed a couple things after 3 beta, and then abandoned it... wich is what happened XD

[Anonynja.3172]

Vindicator offers revenant players a competent power DPS option for instanced content. I use it fairly regularly. The Aug 23rd power damage buffs we just got are noticeable. Playing relaxed on a boss where melee makes sense, I hit 25-32k sustained DPS in raids with 40k+ burst. Overall, it's a decent option. But some bosses are much harder to stay on - Matthias, Largos Twins, etc - and their movement or movement required by mechanics will tank your DPS. If I hop on my Virtuoso, those problems disappear.

So there are superior alternatives. Right now, power mechanist offers higher damage and way more CC. Other power builds can match or beat the damage while hitting from range or bringing some more utility. Vindicator deserves more utility or more damage to make up for being stuck in melee range and forced to dodge off cooldown for your rotation.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Anonynja.3172

[phokus.8934]

8 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

They need to finally buff Archemorus skills and entirely rework the elite ability which feels almost useless in every single game mode, that would be a start..

I don't think there's a more boring skill, let alone utility or elite in the game.

[otto.5684]

1 hour ago, phokus.8934 said:

I don't think there's a more boring skill, let alone utility or elite in the game.

As compared to Renegade or Herald. Nearly all classes in pve run a damage utility(s) plus some signet. Not exactly the epitome of fun design. 
 

Vindicator has issues, but being boring is subjective. And honestly, nothing in the rev is more lame than renegade kitty tea party. 

[X Anthony A.8409]

On 8/23/2022 at 3:58 PM, Aeolus.3615 said:

Vindicator also can have perma quickness yet no one cares, on a more serious note  the main issue with vindicator is Viktor legend.

It is just most players are blinded to everything that puts a ton of conditions on target with low effort  or anything that has lots of boons if team share the better, since game is already overloaded with boons.

 

no one goes perma quickness on vindi because the skill takes 3/4seconds to cast and its not a thing because it doesn't provide enough quick for it to be worth putting stats into for so it feels wack to even use and the dps isnt good on vindicator for the it being a pure selfish class not even with the changes it needed to be 40k min or 45k dps for it to be worth playing since it has no utility or cc

Edited August 25, 2022 by X Anthony A.8409

[Aeolus.3615]

3 hours ago, X Anthony A.8409 said:

no one goes perma quickness on vindi because the skill takes 3/4seconds to cast so it feels wack to even use and the dps isnt good on vindicator for the it being a pure selfish class not even with the changes it needed to be 40k min or 45k dps for it to be worth playing since it has no utility or cc

if u keep spamming the same skill (scavenger burst)over and over and over and over, i dont use boon duration and can do it why cant you, it will get u on perma quickness while doing it.

Arch selfish quickness is way much better actually than herald one lol...

EDIT: Quickness boon lasts  4 sec  and skill cd is 3sec, with 50% boon duration should gain 2sec on that skill

Btw impossible odds should get quickness pulse while  🙂 or at least increase atk speed w/o the boon

Vindicator on PVE is way way better than in WvW lol..

Edited August 25, 2022 by Aeolus.3615