Why even have a Legendary Division

[Mell.4873]

Currently in the US one person is in Legendary (those 4 extra blips are really going to good use).

Why not cycle down the ranks, Remove Bronze and replace it with Silver so on and so on.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Gotta give the 5 or so off peak duo/match manipulating omega nerds something to shoot for.

[ArthurDent.9538]

Getting 1800+ was actually quite doable for decent players playing soloq during the first few seasons of the rating system. Unfortunately the population has steeply declined since then with primarily weaker players leaving which doesn't allow the bell curve to really reach out that far. If there was something that brought in large amounts of new/low tier players then legendary division would grow dramatically.

[wondermuffin.9680]

What I find strange is that, during 2v2/3v3 seasons, some players have 40-0 win/loss ratio and STILL are not in legendary. If 100% win ratio doesn't put you there, what will.

Edited August 29, 2022 by wondermuffin.9680

[Mime.9308]

well when u get +1 or +2 for a win, it does not go fast lol 

[Khalisto.5780]

what difference would it make

[Master Ketsu.4569]

The main problem is the amount of points you gain/lose has too high variance, in addition to the way it is calculated being prone to inaccuracies. Currently, if you are in platinum, you will win 3~10 points for a win and lose 15~25 points for a loss. The logic behind it makes sense, but the problem is the disparity is too high resulting in the gravity towards the middle being too strong, which then results in even more bad matchmaking because you have "good-but-not-god" players who are only a single division higher than average when they should be 2~3 divisions higher. These points should never be lower than 7 or higher than 18 IMO.

The next problem is how it's calculated seems to only weigh your personal score against the enemy team. So lets say you are Plat I, and it's late at night, and so the matchmaker decides that you ( Plat I ) should be able to carry a team of Silver III's against five Gold I~II's. As someone who is Plat I~II this is a very annoying match to be in. When in this match, I will win wherever I go, because Golds frankly do not stand a chance against those of us who can self carry beyond 1600. But the Silvers will lose everywhere they are because the gap between Gold and silvers is too big. This makes winning the match not as easy as it would seem since you can really only guarantee one node.  The problem occurs when we win. What do we get? That's right! +3 points. This is because the system seems to only look at the fact that a Platinum player beat up a bunch of golds - totally expected, so we only get 3 points. It completely ignores the fact that we had to carry a bunch of silvers who were tripple capping home at the start of the game and just in general had absolutely no idea what in the 9 circles of hell they were doing the entire match. 

And because we only gained +3 points, that means the difference between our ranks and those same players in that match hasn't significantly changed. Which means that if we re-Q, there is a chance we will get THE EXACT SAME PLAYERS IN THE EXACT SAME BAD MATCH AGAIN.

The worst part about this is that these types of matches are not fun for those of us involved. It is stressful for the Plat+ ranked player, because carrying silvers against golds is obnoxious. It is stressful for the silver players, because they should be fighting other silvers until they learn the basics. Getting pooped on by Golds who usually at least understand the basics of how their class works in PvP is not fun for them. It is stressful for the Gold players, because from their perspective it will feel to them like they should be winning the match since they win most of their engagements. 

TL;DR Legendary division is fine and should stay. Point distribution calculation is borked and encourages bad mismatched games. And let's not even mention how match manipulation factors into this.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Master Ketsu.4569

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, wondermuffin.9680 said:

What I find strange is that, during 2v2/3v3 seasons, some players have 40-0 win/loss ratio and STILL are not in legendary. If 100% win ratio doesn't put you there, what will.

I noticed this too, I think if you are top 250 players you should be at least plat 3, right now that is gold 3.

I guess losing to a low rank drops you way to many points or you gain almost nothing by beating them.

42 minutes ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

TL;DR Legendary division is fine and should stay. Point distribution calculation is borked and encourages bad mismatched games. And let's not even mention how match manipulation factors into this.

Good breakdown and I 100% agree this could fix the issue. Maybe a static amount of MMR regardless of the other teams rank.

I will say my suggestion would also work and probably be better than a different MMR system since the current system prevents you being carried (well not entirely)

Edited August 29, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Shao.7236]

Need more players. Forcing new values in the system will only cause the same issues to resurface.

[Crab Fear.8623]

2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Need more players. Forcing new values in the system will only cause the same issues to resurface.

Steam, gonna be hayuuuge!

This big 👉         🍆  

[Shadows Creed.3902]

Years ago was enough players in SPVP to have legendary tier ratings. Now there just isn't enough players.   It does feel like a revamp of the rating system is probably needed. Even if it is just chop out the second tier of each and lower overall points something to balance it out based on the actual population. 

[JTGuevara.9018]

16 hours ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Getting 1800+ was actually quite doable for decent players playing soloq during the first few seasons of the rating system. Unfortunately the population has steeply declined since then with primarily weaker players leaving which doesn't allow the bell curve to really reach out that far. If there was something that brought in large amounts of new/low tier players then legendary division would grow dramatically.

Not only that, the bell curve has shrunk (lack of population) and gotten steeper (bad matchmaking and win-traders)! There's just not enough players period to sustain this nonsense.

[Mell.4873]

8 hours ago, Shadows Creed.3902 said:

Years ago was enough players in SPVP to have legendary tier ratings. Now there just isn't enough players.   It does feel like a revamp of the rating system is probably needed. Even if it is just chop out the second tier of each and lower overall points something to balance it out based on the actual population. 

I feel like if they chopped out the bronze tier it might incentivise more people to play PvP since it is more rewarding. I mean 4 extra plips is not nothing.

6 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Not only that, the bell curve has shrunk (lack of population) and gotten steeper (bad matchmaking and win-traders)! There's just not enough players period to sustain this nonsense.

Yeah the win-trading is a bit a problem, even if its not as common as people claim the accusation alone can derail any game into people camping in their base.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Mell.4873

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Its broken for the same reason you get platinum players stuck in gold because of their teams, and so on.

 

All matchmaking is broken; it depends on a high population as  well as grading you for the performance of your entire team instead of your individual performance, and as a result low players climb to mid but can't fall out of it, while high players fall down to mid and can't climb past it. Essentially everything gravitates to gold and you have to constantly struggle to stay either in platinum (if highly skilled) or silver (if lowly skilled), frustrating players who end up in the wrong divisions or teammates who are in the wrong divisions for the match.

 

Legendary tier should have at least a hundred players in it, not one or two.

 

So just take the L even though you had four top stats and did 50% of your team's damage, All players belong in gold from now on, the matchmaker says so.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[zonias.1083]

Legendary tear just exists for players to achieve it. The problem is that there are not enough players to sustain it. The majority of players belong to either silver or gold from my understanding.

And there are actually really few players in platinum compared to other leagues. The problems is that to reach Legendary the best experience to climb is to consistently play with full platinum teams that way you can be rewarded with points accordingly so that the ranking system works smoothly. 

Right now, since there are not enough players in platinum, you have a platinum player that has to carry significantly less skilled players in other to win, example. When i started sometimes i would have in my team one of the top 10 players, RIP twitch, while i was just a high gold. That made no sense, why would i be in a match with such a skilled player when i was just a gold?. The answer is that there are simply not enough players. 

 

I hope that the steam release will bring new players. But i highly doubt pvp will get new live revamp. So far Arenanet has made it clear it is not the main purpose and they prefer to twy improve WvW and high end PvE content. There i simply no reason to play pvp besides getting your daily, because the rewards are little, and the new player experience is simply not welcoming. When i got into pvp i had to spend months getting my head pummeled again and again until my skill raise to where i can stay in platinum 1/2 consistently without any issue. 

Bu8t i notice when i rank up, or start a new season, the skill discrepancy is simply too big between different tiers. So low ranked player simply get exploded from higher level players and learn nothing.

GW2 does actually a pretty poor job to explain to new players what killed then. The logging system is way to bad, you are not sure where most dmg came from by timeframe, you can not see what stunned you precisely, where they where, etc. It is simply a totally different game mode to understand and sadly new players are discouraged from joining because of the complexity it has. 

I play revenant, and i feel bad when someone just drops bellow 70% health because they fighting and i instantly one shot them because they did not dodge in the 0.4 seconds they had. 

 

 

sorry for the messy  comment it is not so well organized but i hope i got my point across. I doubt the PvP will improve unless ArenaNet makes a serious effort in this regard. 

[Spellhunter.9675]

 

6 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

while high players fall down to mid and can't climb past it

If someone can't climb out of gold he is just not good or not giving a kitten about the game anymore.

I'm not very good or smthn but no matchmaker in the world would hold me in gold LUL.

[Guirssane.7082]

Boyce make it to top 5 every season, guess he must be just lucky getting out of gold every season smh... 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

1 hour ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

 

If someone can't climb out of gold he is just not good or not giving a kitten about the game anymore.

I'm not very good or smthn but no matchmaker in the world would hold me in gold LUL.

I hear this argument alot but its nonsense. Its physically impossible to carry low-skill teams in this game, and due to the extremely low population in the last few months especially.

 

Almost every game has players of every single rank, all the way down to bronze no matter how high up on the ladder you are. The players who hard-climb rely on tactics like duo Q and queue dodging to make sure they have less chance of getting mixed with "the bads", which is playing the matchmaker to make it more fair to your own skill level, which is the opposite of it working as intended like I said.

 

This sentiment applied a few years ago, but it doesn't apply anymore. I don't know why people keep defending this broken system for basically no reason at all.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Spellhunter.9675]

28 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I hear this argument alot but its nonsense. Its physically impossible to carry low-skill teams in this game, and due to the extremely low population in the last few months especially.

 

Almost every game has players of every single rank, all the way down to bronze no matter how high up on the ladder you are. The players who hard-climb rely on tactics like duo Q and queue dodging to make sure they have less chance of getting mixed with "the bads", which is playing the matchmaker to make it more fair to your own skill level, which is the opposite of it working as intended like I said.

 

This sentiment applied a few years ago, but it doesn't apply anymore. I don't know why people keep defending this broken system for basically no reason at all.

I have a friend who plays in NA and he climbed out of gold 1 to plat playing core power necro with 200 ping and soloQ only.

So stop making exuses and get gud. 

[Shadows Creed.3902]

Issue I see isn't necessarily climbing out of gold or not.   It's that the system was built for way more players so the top players aren't pulling into Legendary at this point cause there just isn't enough players to sort it out.  

 

 

[Bazsi.2734]

This matchamking was made for a playerbase that was 2 orders of magnitude larger than currently. When PoF was fresh, even with the worst balance the game ever had, somehow the matches were okay. Now with balance mostly fixed(but hardly any players left), matchmaking is terrible. It's actually not matchmaking, it's just that it has nothing to work with.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 8/30/2022 at 8:14 AM, Spellhunter.9675 said:

I have a friend who plays in NA and he climbed out of gold 1 to plat playing core power necro with 200 ping and soloQ only.

So stop making exuses and get gud. 

 

I also have some great desert lakefront property to sell you.

Let me guess, no video evidence of this exists, right? Just 'my friend' anecdotes? 

[oscuro.9720]

17 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

I also have some great desert lakefront property to sell you.

Let me guess, no video evidence of this exists, right? Just 'my friend' anecdotes? 

Climbing from gold to plat in solo Q is very doable, what are you going on about?

[Gotejjeken.1267]

29 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Climbing from gold to plat in solo Q is very doable, what are you going on about?

 

It's the 'core power necro with 200 ping' that makes this less than believable.  

Also, I'm inclined to believe match dodging is involved at some point, because as someone else mentioned it's difficult/impossible to carry a low skill team and the matcher will put you with them to try and enforce balance.  

BTW, qualifiers like 'very doable' need some sort of backing metric.  Otherwise, it's the 'my friend' thing again, just a statement with no evidence.  

[oscuro.9720]

5 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

It's the 'core power necro with 200 ping' that makes this less than believable.  

Also, I'm inclined to believe match dodging is involved at some point, because as someone else mentioned it's difficult/impossible to carry a low skill team and the matcher will put you with them to try and enforce balance.  

BTW, qualifiers like 'very doable' need some sort of backing metric.  Otherwise, it's the 'my friend' thing again, just a statement with no evidence.  

Backing metric: I’ve done it at least 6 times (usually around plat 2, but seasons with a bad first 10 matches have sometimes dumped me in low gold). I’m not exceptional at this game or anything, but the right class played the right way can climb pretty well. I don’t really have anything else to show you tbh. I also have friends/guild mates who have done it, but, again, I don’t have much to offer you in terms of hard evidence. I will also add I haven’t PvP’d much over the last year or so, so my statements may be outdated, though I do not believe they are. As for match dodging, I never have done that personally. I can’t speak to the other people I know who have grinded solo Q on match dodging. Believe if you wish, don’t if you don’t want to, it’s up to you my friend 🙂 
 

As for the core nec thing, yea, okay, that’s fair. 🙂