ARC DPS (and all damage meters) are ruining the game

[ArchonWing.9480]

23 hours ago, NCGamingPro.4013 said:

Using DPS meters doesn't mean you have to run meta builds.

And in fact it is quite the opposite, since as long as you have enough dps and provide the necessary buffs, your build becomes irrelevant.

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Please, put the OP and 9 other players with a similar mindset into the Strike Mission CMs to go for the titles -- and make a video of the resulting fiasco, then have them explain what they think went wrong there.😉

IT'S BECAUSE MY TEAMMATES WERE BAD  ...x10 😄  

20 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

And in fact it is quite the opposite, since as long as you have enough dps and provide the necessary buffs, your build becomes irrelevant.

True, meters are easly much more objective and fair than trying to rate someone's impact in the group based solely on the build or class they run.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Bladestrom.6425]

you have the same argument going in circles on this topic year after year game after game, and its the same problem, people arguing without listening to each other.  What is the problem?

 

- Are damage meters in themselves bad?  No, its a tool and can be fun to use

- Are they necessary?  yes BUT  only in certain circumstances, i.e when you are required to achiever an acceptable performance level for a given context/game mode.  In GW2 that's Hard modes, trials and a couple Strikes and perhaps top 200 PVP.

-When are meters problematic?  They are not as a tool, however when people passively aggressively attack or otherwise other people because of meter performance in an environment where dps goals are already far exceeded then they give the tool and other players of end game a bad rep.   E.g if a fight needs 20k and the group does 40k, it doesn't matter that a new or casual player is only doing 4.  Attacking said players in this context is mean spirited and toxic actually.

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Taclism.2406]

Its a bad idea for gw2 health and therefore shouldnt happen, but I "kinda wish" they experimented for 2 weeks - 1 month and did shut down APIs or w/e code is used by dps meters , just to demonstrate how badly that'd lower appeal of raids / strikes even further, not make it more accessible.

To OP : emboldened raids were implemented for, among others, "anti meta" contrarians like you seem to be. Even with a bad build you'd reach reasonable enough DPS to kill bosses, provided you make up for it with adequate movement

Edited September 7, 2022 by Taclism.2406

[Bladestrom.6425]

Raids/Trails are very niche tac, They are design for the player that likes to play the skill rotation game, and that requires tight tuning which means you have to reach that tuning level.  Strikes are the middle ground.  

Edited September 7, 2022 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Linken.6345]

5 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

you have the same argument going in circles on this topic year after year game after game, and its the same problem, people arguing without listening to each other.  What is the problem?

 

- Are damage meters in themselves bad?  No, its a tool and can be fun to use

- Are they necessary?  yes BUT  only in certain circumstances, i.e when you are required to achiever an acceptable performance level for a given context/game mode.  In GW2 that's Hard modes, trials and a couple Strikes and perhaps top 200 PVP.

-When are meters problematic?  They are not as a tool, however when people passively aggressively attack or otherwise other people because of meter performance in an environment where dps goals are already far exceeded then they give the tool and other players of end game a bad rep.   E.g if a fight needs 20k and the group does 40k, it doesn't matter that a new or casual player is only doing 4.  Attacking said players in this context is mean spirited and toxic actually.

 

So your saying people should carry the 4k player and they should be none the wiser that they are not up to snuff.

Then get either mad or yelled at when the next squad cant carry them?

I mean in their mind they clearly done the content before so why is this new team so bad.

[Artemis.8034]

This game has less toxicity than any other game, people rave about FF and its helpful players. Please thats a meme its actually more toxic with snobbery and cattiness than here. I have not had a problem getting into raids and im a pretty less than average player. But i do mechanics and I bring something to my squad in the form of boons or heals or kiting. So my dps may be meh but the pluses i bring makes me in demand. I would say gw2 is the least toxic raid community I have ever seen.  

[Astralporing.1957]

14 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

-When are meters problematic?  They are not as a tool, however when people passively aggressively attack or otherwise other people because of meter performance in an environment where dps goals are already far exceeded then they give the tool and other players of end game a bad rep.   E.g if a fight needs 20k and the group does 40k, it doesn't matter that a new or casual player is only doing 4.  Attacking said players in this context is mean spirited and toxic actually.

Notice, that in this example it's not the meters that are problematic, but the players that are using it as an excuse to be kittens. And thinking that lack of meters would cause those players to behave like less of a kitten is naive. They'd simply use some other excuse to misbehave, and lacking the access to dps meter, it would be more arbitrary, and so probably even more common.

[Labjax.2465]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Notice, that in this example it's not the meters that are problematic, but the players that are using it as an excuse to be kittens. And thinking that lack of meters would cause those players to behave like less of a kitten is naive. They'd simply use some other excuse to misbehave, and lacking the access to dps meter, it would be more arbitrary, and so probably even more common.

Yes and no. DPS meters are a surface level part of a game structure as a whole that breeds elitism. So yes, getting rid of them would not stop elitism. But reducing it to "people are using it as an excuse to be mean" is misleading. We can look at the design of the games and see how, for example, in this game efficient group play is rewarded and inefficient group play is punished (by slowing down the speed of rewards). And this in a game where most content is centered around getting rewards that will be part of your account forever (but which can take a while to get over time). This can lead to resentment over contribution levels and a hierarchy of skill, where those seen as lesser skill are looked down on as holding others back on achieving their goals.

This is not to say the elitism is justified, but the point is that the material factors of the game drive people in specific directions, and it's a push and pull between individual values and circumstances outside the game and in it.

To say the reasons would be arbitrary without a DPS meter would imply that people are just waiting in the wings to misbehave, looking for any excuse, and there is no reason to think that's the case in any significant numbers. Consistently acting like a jerk usually comes with consequences in a game like this, so it makes way more sense to think there are specific reasons motivating people toward that stuff in specific ways, rather than that they are "looking for excuses" to act out.

Keep in mind, too, some of such people are not going to see themselves as being mean, but as justifiably putting someone down who is not contributing what they should. I don't agree with how they think, but people generally don't see themselves as the villain. They justify it in one way or another.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Yes and no. DPS meters are a surface level part of a game structure as a whole that breeds elitism. So yes, getting rid of them would not stop elitism. But reducing it to "people are using it as an excuse to be mean" is misleading. We can look at the design of the games and see how, for example, in this game efficient group play is rewarded and inefficient group play is punished (by slowing down the speed of rewards). And this in a game where most content is centered around getting rewards that will be part of your account forever (but which can take a while to get over time). This can lead to resentment over contribution levels and a hierarchy of skill, where those seen as lesser skill are looked down on as holding others back on achieving their goals.

You are applying all these assumptions only to 1 type of player and behavior. A behavior which is the minority even if drawing a vast amount of attention. If you'd compare the amount of groups/players/individuals which run a combat parser and benefit from them versus the occurrences where some players might be toxic, the former is a huge majority.

What about the times where a combat parser actually lead to positive deductions, lessons learned or experiences?

What about when a combat parser lead others going: "oh wow, I did not know this worked"? Best example once again the recent Harvest Temple CM where a great power reaper player showed how strong that class can be in the encounter, going against the grain of all mechanist and virtuosos.

You don't hear about those positive effects because there is nothing to report about. Someone doing great dps on a non meta build or less optimal class for a specific boss does not make the front news. The player not getting kicked because the raid lead gave him a chance and the parser confirmed him doing well leads to no big outcry.

The effects and repercussions of the data provided by combat parsers are not as visible or tangible as the singular negative experiences (which themselves are most often reported rather subjectively and most often with lack of data). The positive effecsts are very noticeable in regular game play though, even if they do not draw immediate attention.

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

This is not to say the elitism is justified, but the point is that the material factors of the game drive people in specific directions, and it's a push and pull between individual values and circumstances outside the game and in it.

To say the reasons would be arbitrary without a DPS meter would imply that people are just waiting in the wings to misbehave, looking for any excuse, and there is no reason to think that's the case in any significant numbers. Consistently acting like a jerk usually comes with consequences in a game like this, so it makes way more sense to think there are specific reasons motivating people toward that stuff in specific ways, rather than that they are "looking for excuses" to act out.

We know what having no dps meter meant for the game. Simply put: you are wrong. The gating and toxicity were far worse than now and worst of all: they were most often not justified or based around any actual data.

A friend of mine literally had to make a guardian during classic because he would NOT get taken on his necro main. We are talking months of experience and him seeing a dismissal rate from groups so high, it made him have to create a "desired" class only for dungeons.

The reasons were arbitrary because players try to make sense of why something might have failed, or went less smoothly. The conclusions drawn were faulty because of lack of data. To assume otherwise is foolish. We are literally talking exchanging factual data for guesswork here.

Even now with a lot more data we see players make faulty assumptions due to lack of knowledge or experience and that is WITH far more data available to them. It is mindbogglingly to me that someone would believe this could improve by reducing data.

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Keep in mind, too, some of such people are not going to see themselves as being mean, but as justifiably putting someone down who is not contributing what they should. I don't agree with how they think, but people generally don't see themselves as the villain. They justify it in one way or another.

Irrelevant to this discussion. What you are basically saying is:"players will be toxic and not know they are toxic." Yes, we know. Those players will not stop being toxic only because they now need to find other ways to justify their toxicity because as you said: they don't see themselves as toxic.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[soulknight.9620]

ArcDPS (aswell as any other dps meter) is a tool. And tool by itself isnt something bad or good, its how you use it. For example u can actually kill people with a hammer, doesnt make hammer a bad tool. 

The problem is with people using that tool. Its not that simple though.

Firstly, ArcDPS actually helps you identify people that are kinda not in their place in hard content. Ive seen a guy doing 3k dps in XJ CM (where our healers were doing 5k). And yes he was a dps, he confirmed that. Ive been in pug raids where dpsers were doing dps that was nearing our healers dps. You need to have a tool to let you identify the problem and to remove that problem. And thats not toxicity, its pure pragmatism. Any class can do decent enough dps (im not saying top dps or anything, just an average) and thats achieved by practicing ur class. 

On the other hand ive seen ArcDPS being abused by people that kicked people for being 1k dps lower then top dps was. And ofc ive seen a guy getting kicked for doing 15k dps on alac/dps class when top dps was 22k. And the guy that kicked him was "He does no dps for alac, ive seen benches, it should be 20-25k". Yeah, when ur top dps is doing 22k, sure. Thats how it gets abused.  

 

And another point i want to make is that ArcDPS is not a good tool. It doesnt take into account a lot of things like phasing, running, kiting etc. So you can get a steady 30k dps on something like Cairn, but you cant even get 15k dps on something like AH strike. So many new people are confused on what is the appropriate dps on their class. You actually need to memorise the dps for every encounter to track urself and other people. And thats not convinient. And no golem doesnt help with that, cause it doesnt show ur dps in real fight situation at all. 

Since dps meters are a part of gw2 now and thats how it will work in the future (atleast for end game content), i would suggest that anet actually look into it and build official dps meter into gw2. 

 

[Rayti.6531]

As someone who has seen this game before meters, I'd rather not have this time back. I still remember those "4 War, 1 Mes" "no Eles" LFGs (just to give some examples).

 

Instead of being called out for low dps based on your actual performance measured via a meter, you were just gatekept entirely, since your performance could not be measured at all.

 

I personally use my meter to measure my own performance, and if I notice we lack something in the group I'm currently in, I adjust my build accordingly to try and make up for it. This often leads to the group completing the content rather than wiping and disbanding. I cannot see anything wrong with that.

 

Ofc, there are people who use a meter for toxic behavior as well... 

 

However, this toxicity does not come from the meter itself, but from the person using it... The meters are not the problem - toxic behavior is. And you get that with and without a meter, sadly.

 

Actually, the most toxicity I experienced in this game actually came from people not running a meter (and therefore not knowing what went wrong during a wipe, and randomly assigning blame to anyone around them - while often being the problem themselves).

 

I think a DPS (+healing, mechanics, etc.) meter developed by ANet should be part of the game, since without it there is close to zero transparency regarding group performance in encounters. Even a "summary" after each encounter/try with some performance indicators like DPS, mechanics completed/failed, healing/boon output etc. per player would help a lot.

 

The fact we need 3rd party software for making these things visible is what rubs me the wrong way. But that's a different story...

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

9 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

We can look at the design of the games and see how, for example, in this game efficient group play is rewarded and inefficient group play is punished (by slowing down the speed of rewards). And this in a game where most content is centered around getting rewards that will be part of your account forever (but which can take a while to get over time). This can lead to resentment over contribution levels and a hierarchy of skill, where those seen as lesser skill are looked down on as holding others back on achieving their goals.

This is not to say the elitism is justified, but the point is that the material factors of the game drive people in specific directions, and it's a push and pull between individual values and circumstances outside the game and in it.

This is in no way a byproduct of existence of dps meters. The design elements you complain about have already existed before that tool was created. Similarily, removal or lack of that tool would not cause removal of those design elements.

9 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

To say the reasons would be arbitrary without a DPS meter would imply that people are just waiting in the wings to misbehave, looking for any excuse, and there is no reason to think that's the case in any significant numbers.

No. It just means some people are kittens (whether they realize it or not) and will use any excuse to behave like that, and that some people care about content clear efficiency to the degree where they can be uncivil to other players if it's not up to their standarts. And some are in both groups at the same time.

9 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Consistently acting like a jerk usually comes with consequences in a game like this, so it makes way more sense to think there are specific reasons motivating people toward that stuff in specific ways, rather than that they are "looking for excuses" to act out.

See the second group i mentioned above. The people we usually talk about here are people whose toxicity is a byproduct of unhealthy fixation about clear efficiency. Those players existed long before arcdps became a thing - long before raids even entered the picture. And since they existed, and we already had a chance of seeing them in action, we're not guessing when we're saying that it was a much worse (and more unhealthy) situation than what we have now.

9 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Keep in mind, too, some of such people are not going to see themselves as being mean, but as justifiably putting someone down who is not contributing what they should. I don't agree with how they think, but people generally don't see themselves as the villain. They justify it in one way or another.

Yes.Almost noone sees themselves as villains, and using excuses to channel toxic behaviour is rarely a conscious decision. That has nothing to do however with whether dps meters exist or not.

[Ashen.2907]

9 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

To say the reasons would be arbitrary without a DPS meter

He said that because that is exactly what we experienced for years before Arc.

[Labjax.2465]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

This is in no way a byproduct of existence of dps meters. The design elements you complain about have already existed before that tool was created. Similarily, removal or lack of that tool would not cause removal of those design elements.

No. It just means some people are kittens (whether they realize it or not) and will use any excuse to behave like that, and that some people care about content clear efficiency to the degree where they can be uncivil to other players if it's not up to their standarts. And some are in both groups at the same time.

See the second group i mentioned above. The people we usually talk about here are people whose toxicity is a byproduct of unhealthy fixation about clear efficiency. Those players existed long before arcdps became a thing - long before raids even entered the picture. And since they existed, and we already had a chance of seeing them in action, we're not guessing when we're saying that it was a much worse (and more unhealthy) situation than what we have now.

Yes.Almost noone sees themselves as villains, and using excuses to channel toxic behaviour is rarely a conscious decision. That has nothing to do however with whether dps meters exist or not.

I suggest rereading what I wrote. This is missing the mark of what I was talking about on so many levels.

[Astralporing.1957]

13 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I suggest rereading what I wrote. This is missing the mark of what I was talking about on so many levels.

I did reread what you wrote (and not in that last post, but in all posts in that thread). And i think that if there's any misunderstanding there, it's not on my side.

But in case i am wrong, i will just restate my points again:

First, existence of ArcDPS does not impact/drive game design. It's the other way around - an already preexisting game design forced creation of dps meters, and then pushed their use more to the forefront.

Second, we do not need to guess how lack or removal of dps meters would impact player behaviour - the answer for that question is known, because we've already seen that in action. We know that in the absence of dps meters players behaved even worse than they behave now. And notice, that we've seen that in the content that had lower (way, way lower, in fact) requirements that some of the endgame content types we have now.

As such, i see next to no negative impact of dps meters on the game. If there's any negative impact, you have to look for that in the underlying base design, but that design is not driven by existence of said meters - it's something that has existed long before that.

[Labjax.2465]

35 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I did reread what you wrote (and not in that last post, but in all posts in that thread). And i think that if there's any misunderstanding there, it's not on my side.

But in case i am wrong, i will just restate my points again:

First, existence of ArcDPS does not impact/drive game design. It's the other way around - an already preexisting game design forced creation of dps meters, and then pushed their use more to the forefront.

Second, we do not need to guess how lack or removal of dps meters would impact player behaviour - the answer for that question is known, because we've already seen that in action. We know that in the absence of dps meters players behaved even worse than they behave now. And notice, that we've seen that in the content that had lower (way, way lower, in fact) requirements that some of the endgame content types we have now.

As such, i see next to no negative impact of dps meters on the game. If there's any negative impact, you have to look for that in the underlying base design, but that design is not driven by existence of said meters - it's something that has existed long before that.

I appreciate you going to the effort, sorry to hear it didn't make any difference. Idk what's being lost in translation here. I don't see what's fundamentally different between you saying:

Quote

ArcDPS does not impact/drive game design. It's the other way around - an already preexisting game design forced creation of dps meters, and then pushed their use more to the forefront.

And me saying:

Quote

DPS meters are a surface level part of a game structure as a whole that breeds elitism.

Like I was really confused at most of your response to me because it seems to be resting on this premise that I think using DPS meters in an elitist way is the source of the problem, rather than a surface level expression of it. The whole point of my thing about the conditions of the game, which I admit was a bit vague, seems to be more or less in line with you saying "preexisting game design forced creation of DPS meters" and my point about people being mean was that this design is a part of what influences how they behave, so their reasons will be relative to that, not arbitrary.

But maybe I misunderstood your use of the word "arbitrary." Based on another person's response after, I was wondering if you meant the ways they come up with to put people down in relation to performance are arbitrary, as opposed to "they want to be mean and will find any way to do it." But then when you say "no, some people are kittens," I'm like, maybe it really is that you mean it's just people who want to be mean, period, and I don't agree with that and I think it's contradictory to the idea that, in your words, the "preexisting game design forced creation of DPS meters" (which I agree with). That is a specific material factor we can look at that we can trace to certain player behavior, whereas "people want to be mean" doesn't resolve to anywhere other than cynicism about human nature.

Maybe that will clarify some things or just muddle it more, idk, I tried lol.

[Astralporing.1957]

58 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Like I was really confused at most of your response to me because it seems to be resting on this premise that I think using DPS meters in an elitist way is the source of the problem, rather than a surface level expression of it.

You did seem to attach a lot of importance to the meters, which made me think you think they are part of the problem (when in fact they are not). Perhaps i have indeed misunderstood what you tried to say.

58 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

But maybe I misunderstood your use of the word "arbitrary." Based on another person's response after, I was wondering if you meant the ways they come up with to put people down in relation to performance are arbitrary, as opposed to "they want to be mean and will find any way to do it."

When i said "arbitrary", i meant that in absence of more objective meters players will be judging others according to far more arbitrary criteria that may not have anything to do with actual player performance. This does not mean those criteria willl be completely random - the people using them will obviously consider them to be justified. It's just that those criteria will often (contrary to the original intention) be only passably grounded in reality.

The example often given is the old pre-meter assumption of "necros and rangers are useless, so don't allow them in groups". Or "eles do the best dps, so in case the squad seems to have dps issues, kick all other professions first". Both are a thing that actually been happening during the initial introduction of raids, before dps meters propagated and people had a chance to see how dps breakdown between professions (and individual players) actually looks like. And the dps meters have shown that those assumptiond were completely arbitrary, not based on reality in any way.

Other such arbitrary requirements would be "5k ap only" for dungeons during even earlier times.

And as for toxicity, again, dps meters have nothing to do with it. This comes from player personality. With the content itself perhaps acting like an enabler (as, in general, more difficult content puts people under greater stress, and stress makes people less able to control their emotions). DPS meter itself is not such an enabler - someone flaming others just because they did 1k dps less than the "expected" value in the absence of dps meter would have just blown up in a different way, triggered by something else. Because they obviously ended up behaving that way either because they just were a kitten, or because they needed a valve for all the stress pressure they felt (and their personality made them vent themselves on other players, instead of finding a more people-friendly way to do so).

Edited September 9, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Bladestrom.6425]

On 9/8/2022 at 12:25 AM, Linken.6345 said:

So your saying people should carry the 4k player and they should be none the wiser that they are not up to snuff.

Then get either mad or yelled at when the next squad cant carry them?

I mean in their mind they clearly done the content before so why is this new team so bad.

 

Unfortunately this is the toxicity i referred to.  The scenario you refer to is a group that does 40k on a boss that only needs 20.  You not 'carrying' someone, your in a group that is destroying content and an Inexperienced player is in the group learning .  You would be a better player if you empathised and remembered when you were that new player. 

 Indecently in 20 years of MMorpg I don't think I have ever seen a new player 'shouting at a squad that cant carry them'  , it tends to be the other way right, when toxic players complain players are not up to snuff, even though the group were victorious.

Time and a place, progressive content requires optimisation and meters, normal content we have been destroying for 10 years we don't, but no harm in using meters as long as you are not toxic with it, and respect other players.

Edited September 10, 2022 by vesica tempestas.1563

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

34 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

Unfortunately this is the toxicity i referred to.  The scenario you refer to is a group that does 40k on a boss that only needs 20.  You not 'carrying' someone, your in a group that is destroying content and an Inexperienced player is in the group learning .  You would be a better player if you empathised and remembered when you were that new player. 

A person doing 4k on a boss that requires 20k DPS from players is being carried. 

When I was new to Raids I tried to join groups that were training people or required no KP/Experience. If someone new joins a squad where people are expected to do their role properly it's not for them. 
Joining a group requiring experience and complaining that they are mad at you for underperforming is entitlement. 
Training groups - where new players should go first - don't care about your damage, their goal is teaching the fight, clearing the encounter comes second.

Toxicity comes from both experienced and new players alike. 

38 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 Indecently in 20 years of MMorpg I don't think I have ever seen a new player 'shouting at a squad that cant carry them'  , it tends to be the other way right, when toxic players complain players are not up to snuff, even though the group were victorious.

You must have not done Kaineng Overlook yet then. 😄 DPS players competing with the healers in term of damage complaining about the squad wiping wasn't extremely uncommon early into EoD.

[Bladestrom.6425]

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

A person doing 4k on a boss that requires 20k DPS from players is being carried. 

When I was new to Raids I tried to join groups that were training people or required no KP/Experience. If someone new joins a squad where people are expected to do their role properly it's not for them. 
Joining a group requiring experience and complaining that they are mad at you for underperforming is entitlement. 
Training groups - where new players should go first - don't care about your damage, their goal is teaching the fight, clearing the encounter comes second.

Toxicity comes from both experienced and new players alike. 

You must have not done Kaineng Overlook yet then. 😄 DPS players competing with the healers in term of damage complaining about the squad wiping wasn't extremely uncommon early into EoD.

 

I was very specifically NOT talking about raids or any progressive content for that matter. Again, meters and skill level required depends on context. To bring it into perspective

- Killing a single nps - trivial

- Doing Open works events - trivial

- 5 man Dungeons - trivial

- Fractals normal - easy

- Easy Strikes - easy.

 - All other progressive content, for e.g raids, hard modes etc - requires various skill and experience. 

When someone bangs on about someone 'not being up to snuff' in any of the first 5 then they are being toxic, The vast majority of GW2 is designed very specifically for casual gameplay where tuning is relaxed.  To clarify,  i have no problem with meters in any context, its only where players abuse others under the pretence of 'helping them' in inappropriate contexts that is problematic.

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Bobzitto.8571]

On 9/5/2022 at 12:48 PM, SolidTx.3249 said:

- prove me wrong

 

-- the biggest issues in end game are balance related

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

-- the above would improve the game overall and the reputation of the community

 

There are plenty of builds that do 'ok' (25-30k) dps but don't get posted in snowcrows because it's considerably below the meta. That said, I find it extremely hard to believe most players who don't play the meta would arrive at those builds on their own. And to be honest here, I've sincerely never seen anyone get kicked from a group simply from playing a certain class/spec - and I pug 100% of the group content I do. 

 

Players trying to learn raiding =/= players using builds that simply don't work due to stats/traits/spec/weapon choice. Yes, these very often intersect, but removing Arc will not fix this, it will simply make people go on a witch hunt whenever fights are taking too long, to see who's using the 'bad' build. On the other hand, Arc allows players to see who isn't pulling their weight and either kick them (if in an experienced group where this wouldn't be acceptable) or talk to them and figure out what is going on(in a learning/training group where this is somewhat expected). The problem is rarely the tool, but rather how you use it. Just yesterday I did T4s with a reaper that had 800 AP and was doing 2-2.5k dps. When we finished the last fractal, I asked them what build they were using and they linked me the stats. They were in Dire gear, which...pretty much explained it all without even looking at the rest of his build. Gave them some advice and to check snowcrows/discretize/metabattle. 

 

What we need isn't to disable Arc, it's to have players show more respect and acceptance towards players who are new to a certain type of content and what is expected of them there. And to get rid of this mentality that only classes doing 35k+dps are viable for content. Removing Arc fixes neither.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Bobzitto.8571

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 

Unfortunately this is the toxicity i referred to.  The scenario you refer to is a group that does 40k on a boss that only needs 20.  You not 'carrying' someone, your in a group that is destroying content and an Inexperienced player is in the group learning .  You would be a better player if you empathised and remembered when you were that new player. 

 Indecently in 20 years of MMorpg I don't think I have ever seen a new player 'shouting at a squad that cant carry them'  , it tends to be the other way right, when toxic players complain players are not up to snuff, even though the group were victorious.

Time and a place, progressive content requires optimisation and meters, normal content we have been destroying for 10 years we don't, but no harm in using meters as long as you are not toxic with it, and respect other players.

It's not so black-and-white.  While there are plenty of times it's easy to carry, it's not necessary to fail completely in order to be holding the group back.  Sometimes poor DPS can make content that is normally easy much more difficult.  

Edited September 10, 2022 by AliamRationem.5172

[Bladestrom.6425]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

It's not so black-and-white.  While there are plenty of times it's easy to carry, it's not necessary to fail completely in order to be holding the group back.  Sometimes poor DPS can make content that is normally easy much more difficult.  

 

And again, i quoted a specific scenario where this is not the case to avoid ambiguity and strawmen. CONTEXT matters,

Here is the arguement we keep seeing:

 

Person 1: in most scenarios heavy optimisation is not required. For example Scenario X where the group is destroying the content as they overpower it..

Person 2 on content that requires optimised play it matters, (no-one disagrees)

Person 2's argument has got nothing to do with the point person 1 made. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by vesica tempestas.1563

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 

And again, i quoted a specific scenario where this is not the case to avoid ambiguity and strawmen. CONTEXT matters,

Here is the arguement we keep seeing:

 

Person 1: in most scenarios heavy optimisation is not required. For example Scenario X where the group is destroying the content as they overpower it..

Person 2 on content that requires optimised play it matters, (no-one disagrees)

Person 2's argument has got nothing to do with the point person 1 made. 

While this degree of specificity is useful for invalidating counter arguments and winning the internet, it also makes your point rather pointless.