please nerf untamed cc

[MoZing.1594]

hammer 3 removes stab so you just get pelted with constant untamed and core ranger CC's proccing a reduced cooldown trait for infinite cc spam.

[Khalisto.5780]

I dont believe it's gonna happen before untamed is absolutely meta and win mat in both regions

[Mell.4873]

That is technically their entire class mechanic and reason to run Hammer on Untamed. The solution to this problem is to just use a movement skills to get away. Untamed doesn't have that much mobility after Hammer 5 and teleport Cantrip are on cooldown.
If you can avoid the Hammer 3 (lets say by dodging) they have very few ways to trigger Fervent Force. What is more deadly is triggering Fervent Force by other means like Shortbow 5, Longbow 4 and Spike trap.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Bast.7253]

Cc everywhere is out of control. I don’t see many people playing untamed or noticed it being any worse than engi though. 
 

so people run hammer in competitive? All I ever see is condi builds and standard gs lb builds. 

[Bazsi.2734]

Isn't that their class mechanic though? To be out of control and dumb? It's called UNtamed for a reason, and here you want to tame it...  Consider this: REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

[Vancho.8750]

10 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Isn't that their class mechanic though? To be out of control and dumb? It's called UNtamed for a reason, and here you want to tame it...  Consider this: REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Why is it Untamed though, it has the most control over pets, ? Does it mean that the ranger is untamed, does that make the other rangers tamed ? If it is Untamed isn't it supposed to do random kitten when you press a button and instead of casting Maul it runs away and pisses on the carpet? 
Great now I have so many questions to ponder.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

57 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Consider this: REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

 

kitten he makes a compelling argument 😭

 

I wish yall would look at EoD and say "if the devs are willing to let this get away with X, I should use this as my balancing metric going forward" instead of bleeding everything back to the same boring meta we had before and didn't like. 

If untamed is allowed to port every 20 seconds to put a maul directly on top of my head with no telegraph, surely some of those 300 second cds and utilities with obnoxious cds are justified coming back in a capacity that lets me answer that, no? 

You -want- a ranger to port on top of people every 20 seconds, with maul, ye?

Edited September 7, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Pimsley.3681]

This spec would be more interesting if the pet could kill the ranger. Untamed pets. You all know you want that.

[Eugchriss.2046]

20 hours ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

I dont believe it's gonna happen before untamed is absolutely meta and win mat in both regions

Yeah and that's exactly the problem with rangers builds. They are never meta but alway second to meta so they never get proper nerfs. They always have that sweet spot to be broken enough but at the same time not broken enough to be meta.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Eugchriss.2046 said:

Yeah and that's exactly the problem with rangers builds. They are never meta but alway second to meta so they never get proper nerfs. They always have that sweet spot to be broken enough but at the same time not broken enough to be meta.

I kind of agree, I think it has more to do with how fragile the Soulbeast/Untamed Cheese builds are. All the one-shoting potential doesn't help if they resurrect of your death in a 1v2.

I don't play this variant of Ranger rather I use a Condition Untamed focusing on CC skills.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

On 9/7/2022 at 3:15 PM, Vancho.8750 said:

Why is it Untamed though, it has the most control over pets, ? Does it mean that the ranger is untamed, does that make the other rangers tamed ? If it is Untamed isn't it supposed to do random kitten when you press a button and instead of casting Maul it runs away and pisses on the carpet? 
Great now I have so many questions to ponder.

It's untamed because beastmaster was named far to often by players pre exp and would have seemed to much like they listened to player ideas lol

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 9/7/2022 at 5:19 PM, Eugchriss.2046 said:

Yeah and that's exactly the problem with rangers builds. They are never meta but alway second to meta so they never get proper nerfs. They always have that sweet spot to be broken enough but at the same time not broken enough to be meta

Ranger based classes are difficult for the Arenanet team to balance competitively, here is why:

Rangers are heavily based around projectile play, which feels very strong at the bell curve or bellow, in environments where players have generally bad positioning, they don't LOS, don't understand how to abuse melee & ground targets going around or through LOS whereas projectiles just get stopped by LOS. As soon as you go above the bell curve and head towards higher tiered play however, opponents know how to LOS and abuse LOS vs. Ranger.

There is this massive curve in efficiency for Ranger that happens from low tier to middle tier to high tier play. Ranger feels OP at low tiers for these reasons, feels very strong in middle tiers, but steeply declines in efficiency at higher tiers and ends up not being viable in higher tiered tournaments because everyone LOSes well and knows how to wield anti-projectile skills correctly, which there is waaay too much of in GW2 right now. This leaves the Ranger in a situation where its ranged attacks simply are no longer reliable to use. These are the same reasons why Deadeye feels impressive at middle or lower tiers, but still ends up being a liability in higher tiered play.

The point here is that if Arenanet nerfs Ranger for the complaints of the middle tiers, then Ranger ends up being virtually useless in higher tiers, and if Arenanet buffs Ranger so it can be a viable meta in higher tiers, then it becomes way too oppressive in middle & lower tiers. This problem has been present for nearly a decade and it seems there is no way to really implement a proper balance between its efficiency in middle tiers to high tiers.

On a side note, this is why Untamed is strong right now, because the teleport/maul/tailswipe is the first method Ranger has ever had for higher tiers that gets around "or goes through" this problem of being massively counterplayed by other classes abusing LOS. 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Eugchriss.2046]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

.. wall... 

Locking pets their respectives xpac would be a good start for me. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

11 minutes ago, Eugchriss.2046 said:

Locking pets their respectives xpac would be a good start for me. 

Yeah but then you'd need to buff Ranger in other areas.

That would be an insane nerf across the board to every Ranger spec.

The balance of Ranger heavily relies around the idea that you can use all pets from all expansions.

Core pets are just bad dude. Drake is only good when paired with Marksmanship builds.

[felix.2386]

untamed is op AF

does 11k+ burst damage in less then 1 second with teleport on heavy armor class 

farms specter

and can stack stealth

 

i wouldn't be surprised if next mAT has one per top team.

seeing how it performed last mAT

Edited September 9, 2022 by felix.2386

[Leonidrex.5649]

17 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

untamed is op AF

does 11k+ burst damage in less then 1 second with teleport on heavy armor class 

farms specter

and can stack stealth

 

i wouldn't be surprised if next mAT has one per top team.

seeing how it performed last mAT

ranger is medium not heavy armor class.
it also has medium health

[felix.2386]

2 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

ranger is medium not heavy armor class.
it also has medium health

it does TO.

but anyway, 11k+ is only the minimum.

as a fairly high rating warrior, i got deleted by top rating untamed for multiple matches today, and it is a 6 button combo executed in 1 second and it goes up to 16k+ damage, with double CC, so i tried to shake it off, but only to get CC'ed again. i'd suspect a  macro on that, but not sure

Edited September 10, 2022 by felix.2386

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, felix.2386 said:

as a fairly high rating warrior, i got deleted by top rating untamed for multiple matches today, and it is a 6 button combo executed in 1 second and it goes up to 16k+ damage, with double CC, so i tried to shake it off, but only to get CC'ed again. i'd suspect a  macro on that, but not sure

The ones who perfectly land the combo every time so you "instantly" take kill damage from two strikes in about .25 seconds, are definitely using a macro to pull it off.

When I was hard testing Untamed's burst combos, many different versions on the golem, I noticed that realistically with 1 human thumb on your razer mouse and even 1 finger on a keyboard, these combos take about 1s to land organically or at fastest maybe .75s for the most coordinated of players while quickness is on, to be able to do it while ensuring no fumbling. When you try to go faster than .75s or 1s, there are too many things that can go wrong. We are talking small differences in ping changes to funk up your keystrokes or any other thing that can suddenly speed up or slow down tech related things, as well as general human error hand fumbling while trying to press like 6x keys in .50s or less. It just isn't realistic to do organically to be reliable.

The combo is NOT as simple as moving your hand quickly. There are certain animation times that need to synch up absolutely perfectly to land that .25s one-shot. This includes weird micro second delays at JUST the right time to do it correctly, or the animations cancel. Again, anyone landing this stuff repeatedly perfectly every time with those .25s onebursts, they are using macros.

If you download a macro program to test it, which I did, it is very easy to specifically set the micro second delay times to ensure everything always lands in the exact same order every time perfectly, which allows for that magical .25s oneshot.

But yeah, this is one of the reasons I am not a fan of Untamed. It a class design that 110% rewards the use of macros, which is just kind of lame game design and not fun to play organically when even the strongest organic play can't keep up with what macros are doing to boost its use. Even perfect power shatters are easy to master by the end of a single day of practice, but Untamed .25s onebursts are just not realistic for organic play.

You'll notice that most people are legitimately playing it, and these the ones who take about 1s to land that full burst, which actually does give you time to react. But you can tell the use of macros for one big reason: 1) If a person possessed the Captain America like super soldier hand eye coordination, accuracy & reflexes to actually reliably land a perfect .25s Untamed burst every time, why are those amazing skills not reflected in everything else they do? When they only possess those Super Chad tier abilities when they use that one specific cheese combo, that = use of a macro, quite obviously. If they actually had that kind of precision, accuracy, reflexes, they would a Super Chad tier player that never made mistakes in combat.

Nevertheless, I don't really care about macro use. I just think it's cheesy and bad design when macro use is that rewarding vs organic play. Arenanet needs to fix this. They can start by removing the CD reduction on hit with the teleport. That teleport happens way too often.

Keep in mind I am a Ranger main and I am pointing this out.

Don't ever call me biased.

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Leonidrex.5649]

is this like mesmers 1shot combe where almost everyone was whining in PM im cheating while all I did was press 8 buttons quickly ?

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 9/9/2022 at 6:02 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Ranger based classes are difficult for the Arenanet team to balance competitively, here is why:

Rangers are heavily based around projectile play, which feels very strong at the bell curve or bellow, in environments where players have generally bad positioning, they don't LOS, don't understand how to abuse melee & ground targets going around or through LOS whereas projectiles just get stopped by LOS. As soon as you go above the bell curve and head towards higher tiered play however, opponents know how to LOS and abuse LOS vs. Ranger.

There is this massive curve in efficiency for Ranger that happens from low tier to middle tier to high tier play. Ranger feels OP at low tiers for these reasons, feels very strong in middle tiers, but steeply declines in efficiency at higher tiers and ends up not being viable in higher tiered tournaments because everyone LOSes well and knows how to wield anti-projectile skills correctly, which there is waaay too much of in GW2 right now. This leaves the Ranger in a situation where its ranged attacks simply are no longer reliable to use. These are the same reasons why Deadeye feels impressive at middle or lower tiers, but still ends up being a liability in higher tiered play.

The point here is that if Arenanet nerfs Ranger for the complaints of the middle tiers, then Ranger ends up being virtually useless in higher tiers, and if Arenanet buffs Ranger so it can be a viable meta in higher tiers, then it becomes way too oppressive in middle & lower tiers. This problem has been present for nearly a decade and it seems there is no way to really implement a proper balance between its efficiency in middle tiers to high tiers.

On a side note, this is why Untamed is strong right now, because the teleport/maul/tailswipe is the first method Ranger has ever had for higher tiers that gets around "or goes through" this problem of being massively counterplayed by other classes abusing LOS. 

Tldr ports onto target that ignore los are busted hence why thief and rev were the supreme roamers basically forever (brief moments of dps guard which, surprise, also has a port onto target)

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Yes let's nerf untamed because of macro users doing a 6 button combo in inhuman time to burst players down, seems like a reasonable ask. Instead let's nerf the 6 button combo so it lines up dps wise with other classes/specs 3 button combos so macro users can't abuse it. Good reason anet needs to really stay away from taking balance advice from forum posters. And Felix u constantly call for nerfs to classes because u choose to play spellbreaker/zerker which are the games 2 most underpowered specs and probably refuse to play bladesworn, wars only viable competitive spec. Ask for war buffs not nerfs to any class that beats on yr underpowered specs.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

18 minutes ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Yes let's nerf untamed because of macro users doing a 6 button combo in inhuman time to burst players down, seems like a reasonable ask. Instead let's nerf the 6 button combo so it lines up dps wise with other classes/specs 3 button combos so macro users can't abuse it. Good reason anet needs to really stay away from taking balance advice from forum posters.

Except you're ignorant on the topic.

Look, there is no way to nerf Untamed damage without greatly harming all the other Ranger specs, including Untamed DPS in areas that are not that one burst. You nerf GS, you nerf all Ranger specs that do not need nerfing. You nerf Marks mods, you need nerf all Ranger specs that do not need nerfing. You nerf Untamed damage mods of the specialization itself, you nerf its damage that isn't that burst and its damage in PvE. The only reasonable nerf to throw at Untamed, which is the source of its functionality, is this skill Unnatural Traversal - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) It does not need to have a 50% reduction to the 40s CD. Having a 20s CD on that teleport is what makes it too strong. Just remove that 50% reduction and having that skill on a 40s CD sounds about right, macro use or not. 20s essentially means it freely generates a downstate once per 20s, which is actually really messed up.

Also, I'm honestly one of maybe 4 people in the entire player base of GW2 NA and EU, that knows the dynamic of the game and the class Ranger well enough, who actually isn't biased who will attack my own class's balance, that my feedback & suggestions are actually worth paying attention to. This is especially true considering the previous large balance patch that had a dev who worked on it caught in a quote saying: "I haven't played Ranger so I'm working from wiki here." At this point, it is very important that 10 year veteran players of their class speak up about what needs to happen in this game.

Who Arenanet actually needs to be ignoring, are people like you.

 

 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

35 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Except you're ignorant on the topic.

Look, there is no way to nerf Untamed damage without greatly harming all the other Ranger specs, including Untamed DPS in areas that are not that one burst. You nerf GS, you nerf all Ranger specs that do not need nerfing. You nerf Marks mods, you need nerf all Ranger specs that do not need nerfing. You nerf Untamed damage mods of the specialization itself, you nerf its damage that isn't that burst and its damage in PvE. The only reasonable nerf to throw at Untamed, which is the source of its functionality, is this skill Unnatural Traversal - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) It does not need to have a 50% reduction to the 40s CD. Having a 20s CD on that teleport is what makes it too strong. Just remove that 50% reduction and having that skill on a 40s CD sounds about right, macro use or not. 20s essentially means it freely generates a downstate once per 20s, which is actually really messed up.

Also, I'm honestly one of maybe 4 people in the entire player base of GW2 NA and EU, that knows the dynamic of the game and the class Ranger well enough, who actually isn't biased who will attack my own class's balance, that my feedback & suggestions are actually worth paying attention to. This is especially true considering the previous large balance patch that had a dev who worked on it caught in a quote saying: "I haven't played Ranger so I'm working from wiki here." At this point, it is very important that 10 year veteran players of their class speak up about what needs to happen in this game.

Who Arenanet actually needs to be ignoring, are people like you.

 

 

That maybe all true but the exact same complaints about the exact same things will still be said regardless of the tele cd being firm at 40 secs, the macro users will still be deleting people in seconds and whether its every 20 secs or 40 won't make any difference because it's the way people are being deleted by the burst not how often that are causing players to speak up, least from things I've seen. As I said the burst isn't the problem it's the macro users, without the macros a human can actual respond and not very many high level players would allow such a long burst being done to them unless being perma cc'd of which most players would avoid as well.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Psycoprophet.8107

[greedywholesome.9081]

If the buggy warrior bsw gets heavily nerfed, I'm expecting untamed to get more gameplay and popularity.

Despite the buggy bladesworn as it is, it still has hard counters. Anet needs to be careful how they'll "fix" that spec as its viability is on thin ice. Untamed is in a very very good spot right now.  

[felix.2386]

just had a plat2 matches, i know it's plat2 because i'm getting +10 while being plat2

with double duoq on my team having untamed in each duoq.

enemy also had double duoq but no untamed

and we wrecked them 500-100.

two untameds absolutely destroyed.

 

you need hard execution for 16k+ damage to heavy

but 12k damage port to heavy is easy to execute.

 

now i'm more convinced that next mAT will be full of untamed