Why Pistols are so poorly designed?

[Bomboed.5697]

Pistols are our only pure condi weapons, yet they are bad at what they are supposed to do.
Why Fragmentation Shot does not apply Bleed on all affected enemies? What the point of AoE power damage on condi focused weapon?
Why Fragmentation Shot does not have Explosion tag to create synergy with Shrapnel trait - the main condi trait of Explosives traitline?
Why Poison Dart Volley does not pierce or have any splash AoE, when all other pistol's skills work on multiple targets?
Why Poison Dart Volley does not have a Projectile Finisher tag?
Why Static Shot is a main-hand pistol skill and Blowtorch is an off-hand skill, while main-hand pistol is supposed to be the main condi-weapon? We have no synergy with Confusion, but we have synergy with Burning.
Why Blowtorch is a melee focused damaging ability, while the whole idea of Pistols to be a ranged condi option? It would be much better to put Blowtorch on #3 of main-hand pistol, make it a proper 900 range ability that with splash Burning and Blindness, while putting Static Shot on #4 of off-hand Pistol and reworking it into a proper CC ability?

[Stx.4857]

Engi pistols are just a very outdated weapon set.  I don't believe they have been changed since 2012.  Pistol 4 slaps though.  I think on my condi holo build it hits for 35k burning.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

flamethrower have aoe piercing condi

pistol is your main weapon, and it's not pierce 

for piercing rangers/thiefs need pick special trait for that

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Dawdler.8521]

8 hours ago, Stx.4857 said:

I don't believe they have been changed since 2012. 

Not true. They've been nerfed to do less than half the original damage.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Not true. They've been nerfed to do less than half the original damage.

They've also lost the trait that made pistol attacks pierce. On the plus side, they did make Poison Dart Volley a tighter spread so you could get all the hits on a single target.

[Obtena.7952]

To be fair ... it's a design that hasn't been touched since the early years of the game. Condi wasn't a superstar back then. They simply need a relook, like rifle. 

[Kuma.1503]

I'd also like the auto after cast to be reduced. That, or make fragmentation shot into an actual mini frag bomb with 3 or more hits that each deal a tiny amount of bleeding with an explosive tag. 

This will cause us to prioritize pistol autos over grenade autos.

Autoing in kits is both clunky and dissapointing. If you spent thousands of gold on a cool legendary skin odds are you want to be able to see it for longer than .5 seconds. If they won't make the legendary effects show in kits, at least let us use the weapon itself. 

Why am I using auto attacking with a power weapon instead of a condi weapon in a condi build anyway?

Edited September 14, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Bomboed.5697]

15 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I'd also like the auto after cast to be reduced. That, or make fragmentation shot into an actual mini frag bomb with 3 or more hits that each deal a tiny amount of bleeding with an explosive tag. 

This will cause us to prioritize pistol autos over grenade autos.

Autoing in kits is both clunky and dissapointing. If you spent thousands of gold on a cool legendary skin odds are you want to be able to see it for longer than .5 seconds. If they won't make the legendary effects show in kits, at least let us use the weapon itself. 

Why am I using auto attacking with a power weapon instead of a condi weapon in a condi build anyway?

This.
I think Rifle change was in right direction - to make weapon AA powerfull and more desirable to use over Kits.
Kits should be mostly used for their skills with CDs. To be completely honest, I would love all kits to have no AAs at all and replace them with something with Ammo system.

[wasss.1208]

22 hours ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

To be completely honest, I would love all kits to have no AAs at all and replace them with something with Ammo system.

Going offtopic for a little here: let's say you play core engineer, and you want to run with a zerg in WvW. What are your options? Your kits run out of ammo, since they wouldn't have an autoattack. You have Rifle, and Pistol, both are projectile heavy. What do you do, against the near-permanent projectilehates of a zerg, if you don't have melee kits, with spammable autoattacks?

And on topic: I'm pretty sure, that A-net is going to realise in a few patches, that Engineer Pistols are horrible, ever since... well, ever. Especially since they are doing core weapon changes lately, I wouldn't be surprised, if they eventually got around, and finally fix the autoattacks aftercast, the jankyness of Blowtorch, and add some QoL and numerical changes, so it feels more like an up-to date weapon.

[Dawdler.8521]

On 9/14/2022 at 7:54 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

I'd also like the auto after cast to be reduced.

Reduced? It's a single skill autoattack - it should either override it's own aftercast or have no aftercast at all.

As I've said before, making the autoattack actually fire at the 0.5 speed Anet has specced it to shoot at from release in 2012 instead of the ~0.75 it actually fires at would be nice. Firing 50% faster would be a massive difference on it's own. Will 2022 be the year?!

It's specced by Anet to fire as fast as the ranger shortbow. 

Let that sink in.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Kuma.1503]

17 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Reduced? It's a single skill autoattack - it should either override it's own aftercast or have no aftercast at all.

As I've said before, making the autoattack actually fire at the 0.5 speed Anet has specced it to shoot at from release in 2012 instead of the ~0.75 it actually fires at would be nice. Firing 50% faster would be a massive difference on it's own. Will 2022 be the year?!

It's specced by Anet to fire as fast as the ranger shortbow. 

Let that sink in.

That didn't sound right so I had to check to make sure... and its true.

That's mind boggling that its that much slower than it should be because of bad coding. 

[coro.3176]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Reduced? It's a single skill autoattack - it should either override it's own aftercast or have no aftercast at all.

As I've said before, making the autoattack actually fire at the 0.5 speed Anet has specced it to shoot at from release in 2012 instead of the ~0.75 it actually fires at would be nice. Firing 50% faster would be a massive difference on it's own. Will 2022 be the year?!

It's specced by Anet to fire as fast as the ranger shortbow. 

Let that sink in.

We have been begging for this for a literal decade. They haven't even acknowledged it is broken. It's actually 0.82s or something (would have to check wiki)

Meanwhile, they addressed "longtime requests for Mechanist polish" within months of its release.

[Matoro.9708]

On 9/13/2022 at 12:16 PM, Stx.4857 said:

Engi pistols are just a very outdated weapon set.  I don't believe they have been changed since 2012.  Pistol 4 slaps though.  I think on my condi holo build it hits for 35k burning.

*if it hits.

[coro.3176]

Blowtorch most certainly does *not* slap in competitive gamemodes, and it's not great in PvE either.

The problem is that the damage needs so much time to fully tick. In PvP, it is always removed within a few seconds, except by the most inexperienced of opponents. In a big WvW fight, it never gets more than a single tick. In order for it to do its full damage, it needs something absurd like ~32 seconds to fully tick out. 32 seconds! These are game modes where a player can get burst down in less than ONE second. In a 1v1, you can sometimes protect its burns with careful cover condi, but in any larger fight, especially one where opponents have support, blowtorch does basically nothing.

In PvE it has double stacks and half duration, which is better, but you or other players still often end up killing the boss/mobs well before it expires.

Assuming a mechanical rework is too much dev effort, I think a simple fix would be to just compress the damage even more:

• It gets its current PvE stacks + duration in PvP and WvW
• Double its current stacks and half duration in PvE

Now you at least have a powerful skill that is more likely to finish most of its damage.

[Dawdler.8521]

7 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

Blowtorch most certainly does *not* slap in competitive gamemodes, and it's not great in PvE either.

The problem is that the damage needs so much time to fully tick. In PvP, it is always removed within a few seconds, except by the most inexperienced of opponents. In a big WvW fight, it never gets more than a single tick. In order for it to do its full damage, it needs something absurd like ~32 seconds to fully tick out. 32 seconds! These are game modes where a player can get burst down in less than ONE second. In a 1v1, you can sometimes protect its burns with careful cover condi, but in any larger fight, especially one where opponents have support, blowtorch does basically nothing.

In PvE it has double stacks and half duration, which is better, but you or other players still often end up killing the boss/mobs well before it expires.

Assuming a mechanical rework is too much dev effort, I think a simple fix would be to just compress the damage even more:

• It gets its current PvE stacks + duration in PvP and WvW
• Double its current stacks and half duration in PvE

Now you at least have a powerful skill that is more likely to finish most of its damage.

This was part of Anets big double-duration-half-stacks WvW nerf for all classes. 

The "problem" for the engineer was that it was hit for a double whammy in firearms - dps of pistols (not so much total damage) was reduced by like 75%. 

I am kind of OK with that because as a WvW p/p engie without even running firearms I find it "enough". Not great of course. What bad is the ability to get attacks through the million dodges, teleports, evades, immune, invouln, block, reflect, etc and so on.

Its of course linked to overall damage, but I'd rather see attack speed and smoother action in combat than just roflstomp damage like the pleb classes have. The rifle proved how much better it is.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[bambi.6214]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

This was part of Anets big double-duration-half-stacks WvW nerf for all classes. 

The "problem" for the engineer was that it was hit for a double whammy in firearms - dps of pistols (not so much total damage) was reduced by like 75%. 

I am kind of OK with that because as a WvW p/p engie without even running firearms I find it "enough". Not great of course. What bad is the ability to get attacks through the million dodges, teleports, evades, immune, invouln, block, reflect, etc and so on.

Its of course linked to overall damage, but I'd rather see attack speed and smoother action in combat than just roflstomp damage like the pleb classes have. The rifle proved how much better it is.

IMO shield is just too good to trade for the pistol. Some burning, cripple and 1.5s of immob vs reflects/push/blast and multiple stuns/block. Please.

Maybe if they added some defensive capabilities to the offhand pistol like some blinds, weaknesses, more immob in the 5th skill.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

11 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

Blowtorch most certainly does *not* slap in competitive gamemodes, and it's not great in PvE either.

The problem is that the damage needs so much time to fully tick.

 

This is not a blowtorch problem but rather a display of how stupidly OP condi stacking works.

Condition should be something that deals consistent damage over time. Except in GW2 where condition is just another flavour of Berserker with more survivability  and a small delay.

 

But I'm going off topic there and yes, pistol should definitely receive a rifle rework level of.....rework.

 

Also fun fact, back when Anet stealth nerf rifle AA claiming it is actually shooting faster than intended, the game displayed 1 sec while the casting time was actually 1.2 sec (or something along that number). Afterward they acknowledged that bug and reverted the changes and it is now 1 sec but the info bubble still display the pre changes 0.75 sec. It makes me think Anet really has some trouble with numbers lol

[coro.3176]

11 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I am kind of OK with that because as a WvW p/p engie without even running firearms I find it "enough". Not great of course. What bad is the ability to get attacks through the million dodges, teleports, evades, immune, invouln, block, reflect, etc and so on.

It was a sad realization that Firearms ("the condi traitline") wasn't doing anything for me in WvW and that I should swap it out for Explosions like every other build, even when running condi/pistols.

Pistol duration is near-worthless in WvW due to abundant cleanse. Inendiary Powder has pathetic damage in WvW and a long ICD compared to Explosive Entrance *and* it can be cleansed. Bleed duration and burn duration don't help because again, they're always cleansed before they reach the back half of their ticks anyway. .. and Might stacking can be done better through other means. So yeah, Firearms is effectively only for Flamethrower-stab builds at this point.

[Coolster.2536]

I agree with most that’s already been said.

• Fragmentation Shot should fire at the rate that’s listed on the tooltip, apply AoE Bleed, and have the Explosion tag for Shrapnel synergy.
• Poison Dart Volley should be a poison version of Harbinger’s Weeping Shots. 1.25s cast time, fires 6 shots, and is projectile finisher.
• I think Static Shot could be made a little bit better if it had a 1/2 Daze on it, at least on the first hit, for some interrupt potential.
• Blowtorch is fine as is. It should be fixed to hit more consistently. Shield is always better in every situation than offhand pistol, especially with Overshield. Plus, Engi has so few weapons that I don’t think there’s much value in trying to make them compete. And Blowtorch not getting it’s full value is a problem intrinsic to condition damage builds.
• And lastly, I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, Glue Shot should be swapped with Acid Bomb on Elixir Gun. This would give OH Pistol some much needed power damage to pair better with Sword Holosmith and power Mace Mechanist, and it’ll give easier access to immob for support Engis and a Blast Finisher for Dps Engis.

[Bomboed.5697]

9 minutes ago, Coolster.2536 said:

• Blowtorch is fine as is. It should be fixed to hit more consistently. Shield is always better in every situation than offhand pistol, especially with Overshield. Plus, Engi has so few weapons that I don’t think there’s much value in trying to make them compete. And Blowtorch not getting it’s full value is a problem intrinsic to condition damage builds.
• And lastly, I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, Glue Shot should be swapped with Acid Bomb on Elixir Gun. This would give OH Pistol some much needed power damage to pair better with Sword Holosmith and power Mace Mechanist, and it’ll give easier access to immob for support Engis and a Blast Finisher for Dps Engis.

I think that Blowtorch should be on main-hand pistol because it is a condi ability and main-hand pistol is a condi weapon. Off-hand pistol should be more about utility, so it could work with both condi main-hand and power main-hand, just like shield does. If shield is all about defensive utility via blocks and reflection, off-hand pistol should be all about aggressive utility like CC, debuffing or something else.
It is easier to turn Static Shot into an utility ability then reworking Blowtorch into one.

[Phazon.3975]

I think Blowtorch as off-hand pistol 4 is fine as it synergizes with Mace and Sword. I don't like the idea of a 900 ranged Blowtorch either. That sounds kinda silly lol.

What they could do is maybe make Blowtorch and Glueshot have a special interaction where the glue is flammable and  if Blowtorch hits the puddle at it's range, is causes a pulsing fire field that burns and damages enemies inside for a few ticks. That would add more range to pistol off-hand with the fire field's radius with this combo while also having some fun synergy with both skills.

Might be complicated to make Glueshot work this way but just my 2 cents.

[Dawdler.8521]

13 hours ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

I think that Blowtorch should be on main-hand pistol because it is a condi ability and main-hand pistol is a condi weapon. Off-hand pistol should be more about utility, so it could work with both condi main-hand and power main-hand, just like shield does. If shield is all about defensive utility via blocks and reflection, off-hand pistol should be all about aggressive utility like CC, debuffing or something else.
It is easier to turn Static Shot into an utility ability then reworking Blowtorch into one.

Since flipping skills because reasons is Anets solution to everything, it wouldnt suprise me if this happen.

If if does, I'd prefer to see the cd shorten by a couple of second and duration lowered.

Glue shot being swapped with acid bomb would be kitten fantastic since the slowkitten glue shot misses a moving target like 95% of the time but come lets face it... purity of purpose. Pistols have to remain bad.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Logos.3042]

Good fixes in here

[Ghos.1326]

I kinda like the pistol 3 being the confusion aspect with the blindness as well. Though they could speed up the projectile speed, and fix the bug that causes the skill to miss at point blank range. Pistol 4 should be some kind of ranged skill though, agree with that, or increase the range of the burning cone to 900 range so it can dual function as either close or long range.

And yes, pistol autos definitely need to be the .5s cast time that it's supposed to be instead of the .8 or .9 that it is now.

[Sifu.9745]

Add 2 Counts to Blowtorch, 5 sec cd, dmg reduced by 40%, Count recharge: 10 seconds. (Or one Count with 6 sec cd and reduced dmg.)

Make Static Shot a 20 sec cd, 3 Counts, dmg reduced by 50%.

Add some Power dmg to Fragmentation Shot.

Make Glue Shot a combo field or/and add one stack of Poison per pulse.

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Sifu.9745