October 4 Balance Update Preview

[Catilena.8729]

W-what? You actually left PVE Catalyst the fark alone? Elementalist made it out of a patch relatively unscathed? And Mechanist isn't here at all?

Who are you and what have you done with Anet? I don't want them back I just wanna make sure they are secure.

[Odysseus.6317]

 

October 4 will be known as the death of the Medic Scrapper in WvW... Long Live

[ZDragon.3046]

So These changes are looking pretty saucy and i am a fan of them but lets point something out.

 

Why is Scourge the only update for this patch when death magic and blood magic for necromancer are both problematic in terms of balance either being useless or borderline broken depending on which elite spec you are using. 

 

There have been several times were devs have called out death magic reworks etc and we have yet to see them. 

Will this ever happen? We know the team does no like toughness based traits like death carapace when will yourework the death line for both pve and pvp. While I understand the goal is to make less meta things more viable this is a long lasting problem that has needed to be fixed.

 

I particularly do not like the soulbeast merging pet swap ability as having 6 merged skills all with their own cd is a very big deal. From a pvp perspective its clearly stronger than the other two traits it sits with making it a no brainer. Consider syncing the pet skills so that if you swap pets after blowing your merged skills you still need to wait to use the back bar pet skills etc. Its powerful let it be a powerful option however it does need A restriction in some way shape or form.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

3 minutes ago, ImBach.9013 said:

Scrapper probably isn't dead. Don't overreact. It still does a lot of things very good. 

 

People were attracted to the thematic of activating a gyro and watching it fly around you?

 

For WvW scrapper nerfs were absolutely warranted. Firebrand needs more things that can be its equal in terms of stab generation and thats about it. Taking away FB stab entirely would just make WvW a stunfest. 

 

Ok but why would I play Scrapper instead of Tempest for instance when I can buff everyone, grants aura, dispel condition, heal them while enjoying the full effect of all my skill because I can actually use them while moving instead of standing inside. The superspeed is nice but that's pretty much the only thing it can bring to the team...And I guess a projectile block dome

[Flapjackson.1596]

4 hours ago, Lord Hizen.5918 said:

I really disagree about the change to Tactical Reload to be applied in PVE because bladesworn have no CC skill and taking away the only option to recharge ammunitions like Electromagical Pulse 2.0 is brutal, also this change will ruin the idea of shout support warrior in strikes and raids so i hope you can leave this change to be applied to PVP and WVW only.

Shout support Warrior (in PvE)  is a taped-together horror anyway that won’t be a real feasible thing unless Warrior gets an elite spec or a new weapon designed around support. Defense and Tactics are there as trait lines waiting, but warhorn has been the only support weapon for 10 years. 
 

People should stop trying to shove 3 DPS pegs into a support-shaped hole. Nothing will change without a massive shake up to the profession. Especially when we live in a heal+boon world and banners cannibalize utility slots.

The effect on EMP is an odd side effect. I see it as harmless to let it benefit EMP.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Flapjackson.1596

[the krytan assassin.9235]

Overall content with the balance preview. The amount of good changes easily outweigh the bad ones. Im glad to see scrapper finally got hit with some hard nerfs. Hopefully this will make room for other support oriented classes. Im kinda sad to see that probably nothing changed to the WvW dps meta (except for possibly war joining in i guess)

Still i cant help to feel abit underwhelmed about these balance changes. The only profession that got a semi decent size update is warrior. There are so many skills/traits that do not have any excuse for why they are not being updated. 

[dead.7638]

• Mantra of Concentration: Increased stability from 3 stacks for 3 seconds to 5 stacks for 5 seconds in WvW only. Increased ammunition recharge from 30 seconds to 35 seconds in WvW only. Increased range from 240 to 600.
• Phantasmal Disenchanter: Reduced number of boons removed from 5 to 2 in WvW only.
• Null Field: Increased cooldown from 25 seconds to 35 seconds in WvW only. 

This is a joke?   April Fools Day was months ago, little late anet. no surprise,however...

Edited September 17, 2022 by dead.7638

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

10 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

Ok but why would I play Scrapper instead of Tempest for instance when I can buff everyone, grants aura, dispel condition, heal them while enjoying the full effect of all my skill because I can actually use them while moving instead of standing inside. The superspeed is nice but that's pretty much the only thing it can bring to the team...And I guess a projectile block dome

Pretty sure you're still bringing top cleanses and more healing than tempest in addition to the nerfed thing. Cleanses are incredibly important by themselves and a pretty big part of why scrap is brought. Stealth and superspeed that moved with the group just made it that much better. 

 

Speculate all you want about how scrapper isn't no longer gonna be meta and its gonna be entirely replaced by tempest and let's see if it actually happens. 

 

 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

ITS WARRIORIN TIME!!!! 💯💯💯💯

[Ashgar.3024]

We're back to "PvP changes kittening over PvE"...

That's fun.

Besides mindless WvW zerging, in what universe did Scrapper need to get redesigned AGAIN?

Edited September 17, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[ursahydroxide.1862]

Okay, I have a lot of thoughts here.

-I like the vindicator changes. The one dodge was a cool idea that made sense for the elite spec, but it turned out not to influence gameplay in a positive manner. This is a really good change and I can't wait to see how it plays

-Adding distortion back to Chronomancer and giving it to virtuoso is a great idea that will largely increase survivability. Happy to hear it.

-A lot of people have been saying that ground targeted scrapper wells are a terrible idea, and I have to agree, it makes the spec unwieldy, it largely reduces usability, it's not a good change. This one is bad.

-As a soulbeast main, this may be unpopular but I don't like the changes to soulbeast. I think getting rid of pet swapping was a good move because it added a really interesting dynamic to play that made a lot of sense and felt natural as a challenge for the specialization. Yes this is a buff, but it's a buff that takes away something unique about soulbeast. You've written that you're taking away the tradeoff like it's a good thing, but tradeoffs are part of what makes these professions interesting. When that got added in, I thought it as a really good idea, and I stand by that. Soulbeast should be buffed, I don't think this is where the buffs should be.

-On the same note, I don't like what's being done to eternal bond. It's currently a nice thing to have in your back pocket in tight situations. Without having a sense of how usable it is, I think this is less interesting. That's less a mechanical gripe and more, personally I liked that one. Now, it's... fine I guess.

 

Overall a mixed bag. Some of these changes make a lot of sense, others just, take away parts of what make elite specs unique.

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

2 minutes ago, dead.7638 said:

• Mantra of Concentration: Increased stability from 3 stacks for 3 seconds to 5 stacks for 5 seconds in WvW only. Increased ammunition recharge from 30 seconds to 35 seconds in WvW only. Increased range from 240 to 600.
• Phantasmal Disenchanter: Reduced number of boons removed from 5 to 2 in WvW only.
  • Null Field: Increased cooldown from 25 seconds to 35 seconds in WvW only. 

This is a joke?   April Fools Day was months ago, little late anet. no surprise,however...

 

It's fine. Stab generation is being split out a bit more and having 2 charges of 5 stacks of stab at the cost of strips. Chrono still brings a real good amount to WvW groups. Wouldn't panic. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Coaster.4651]

I see some contention over the Scrapper Gyro changes, and to make everyone equally happy about it, I suggest taking the change of making their AoE class mechanic ground-targeted and making the highly-desirable traitable buff apply at the start, and moving it to Tempest instead. 😈

 

That said, it's unfortunate that Gale Song--a trait which to my knowledge was used frequently as a convenience/quality-of-life trait in casual PvE--is being replaced with something I'm not sure would be taken in any mode, given how Tempests get free protection on Overloads and Aftershock with the potential for more if they dip out of the standard heal/cleanse traitlines. (I'm sure there would be some OP interaction if it did something like turn cast-time shouts instant-cast so they could be used while CC'd or overloading, but at least it would slightly fit the trait name.)

 

Was initially worried that some of the nerfs might push WvW even more in the direction of dependence on Firebrands, but here's hoping the Mesmer Stability buff makes it possible to live without a FB in every group and the Druid Stability buff makes it the slightest bit viable in group WvW at all. Heal and cleanse numbers are nice for safety for inexperienced groups, but it feels like it's usually the range of utility that makes something overbearing on a larger scale, and that really needs to be spread around better especially with class-specific group buffs being removed. Tempest (the other currently viable WvW healing spec if you don't use stealth bombs or golem runs) will still be left with a pitiful amount of group stab (and needs to sacrifice cleansing or healing massively for it) but it doesn't need to have everything. 😜In my opinion "bring the player, not the class" shouldn't mean "everything's the same except the one that does it with less effort" (the direction of changes from earlier this year), but "every class/role/niche has good alternatives".

 

PvE Mech nerfs cannot come soon enough, but I'd take a "hide ally pets" option as a workable all-purpose alternative.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Coaster.4651
More context to Gale Song alternative suggestion

[Crystal Black.8190]

If you give cc skills therir damage back please consider reaper shrouds skill 5 Executioner's Scythe. It is this super slow and very obvious telegraphed skill and its core idea was to be this skill to finish off targets with low health. Yet it deals no damage and doesnt get any bonus damage anymore if your target is below the 50%/25% health treshhold. It feels like the skill lost its whole identity.

[Fang.1407]

2 hours ago, stormemperor.3745 said:

I like how you give reaper's shroud as an example of tradeoff and proceed to remove trade offs for every spec except necromancer. 

NOT BEING ABLE TO USE UTILITY SKILLS IN SHROUD IS THE REAL TRADEOFF FOR NECROMANCER

Do you even play this game? Berserker can access, Holosmith can access, Specter can access, Druid can access to healing, utilities and elite but kitten necromancer never gets anything good.

 

Real unnatural tradeoff is solar being replaced. At least solar didn't forget about Reaper's existence.

Specter doesn't get to use utility skills in Shroud. Clearly you've never touched it. And you can use shroud while your utilities and weapon skills are on cooldown, plus get an extra health bar... It's like an extra powerful engi kit.

[Serephen.3420]

38 minutes ago, Zaraki.5784 said:

Will this mainly be a competitive balance patch? I see very little for pve.

I mean the previous patch was almost entirely pve, so I guess that's fair.

[Ashgar.3024]

"hey lets give the spec revolving around SUPERSPEED static puddles on the ground utilities, that's a HUGE BRAIN move".

 

Le fricking sigh

[dead.7638]

more annoyed with the specs that get noticed vs the ones anet just doesnt care about anymore and maybe even to the point they just have no clue.   More annoying is the fact the dev team has made statements about what they think is fun vs the overall health and balance of the game.   Absolutely bananas.

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by dead.7638

[otto.5684]

1 hour ago, Pati.2438 said:

@otto.5684 idk man i like they bringing back dostortion to chono. But distortion on virtuoso is a bit mutch it will just end ub in a block/evade spam viesta with Tons of dmg. While this alone will be distgusting to play against just a mirage with 2 dodges and the fact it could actually casting special skill while do so will end ub been like pve mirage just endless dodge/invu spam while deal dps on enemy at same time.  Rly in hope they will get an eye on mes in those things cause it will be more annoying to fight against than just an bsw what was at least hit able lel xd

 

I missee hat Virtuoso got it too. That should big sustain buff in pvp. Mirage could not would you described for like 5 years in pvp. In pve there are significant vigor sources and lower CDs, making it easy to spam ambushes, which are not the same in pvp. I do have issues with ranged ambushes design. And I would be strongly in favor of removing the damage from the clones in favor of increased direct damage. But this is too much work for Anet to bother with. It just took 2.5 years for the 300 sec CDs.

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

7 minutes ago, dead.7638 said:

more annoyed with the specs that get noticed vs the ones anet just doesnt care about anymore and maybe even to the point they just have no clue.   More annoying is the fact the dev team has made statements about what they think is fun vs the overall health and balance of the game.   Absolutely bananas.

 

Most of the things are good here. General consensus from the upper tiers of the PvP community is good and most of the salt is coming from scrapper main or people who don't really understand what needed love and didn't. 

I mean you've got a mesmer icon so you're a mesmer main right? I main mes too. Mes is gonna be pretty nice in PvP after having been bad for like 2 years because of the addition of distortion. Granted I'd agree if you're sad virt didn't get more projectile pen or something for wvw zerging. Or clone health etc. Chrono is really the only winner there. 

The dude who made those statements also is off the team right now I'm pretty sure. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by ImBach.9013

[Bast.7253]

8 minutes ago, Crystal Black.8190 said:

If you give cc skills therir damage back please consider reaper shrouds skill 5 Executioner's Scythe. It is this super slow and very obvious telegraphed skill and its core idea was to be this skill to finish off targets with low health. Yet it deals no damage and doesnt get any bonus damage anymore if your target is below the 50%/25% health treshhold. It feels like the skill lost its whole identity.

It doesn’t? Wow. That is really dumb. Add the damage back and take damage out of some of the other abilities if need be. I haven’t played reaper in a long time but that’s pretty silly.

 

Again though, look at mech’s skills. 7k crit and a stun. They don’t follow their own design decisions, especially with engineer. Reaper still does plenty of damage without it but they should figure out a way to bake some of that damage, preferably the aoe abilities, and bake into this. 

[dead.7638]

19 minutes ago, ImBach.9013 said:

It's fine. Stab generation is being split out a bit more and having 2 charges of 5 stacks of stab at the cost of strips. Chrono still brings a real good amount to WvW groups. Wouldn't panic. 

stab? i mean other classes have it permanently and share it with groups.   This update is nerfing the one role it offers in large groups, boon strip.   I roam i dont even play in boonballs.   Its just another nerf to mesmer making it useless and mainly unplayable.   Boon strips get nerfed while some of anets favorites atm get more boons in terms of longer duration and lower CDS.   Dont you see whats going on?

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by dead.7638

[Vandal.5621]

2 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

In game options change ground targeting abilities to target yourself.

Doesn't work because you need to be able to use Grenade, Hammer 5, and Mortar. And the Gyros still won't follow you, which is the biggest problem.

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

11 minutes ago, dead.7638 said:

stab? i mean other classes have it permanently and share it with groups.   This update is nerfing the one role it offers in large groups, boon stripe.   I roam i dont even play in boonballs.   Its just another nerf to mesmer making it useless and mainly unplayable.   Boon strips get nerfed while some of anets favorites atm get more boons in terms of longer duration and lower CDS.   Dont you see whats going on?

 

 

It offers illusion of life in addition to boon strip and stab and some other stuff and alac+quick. Increasing stab and removing boon strips to compensate is absolutely fine. It's not dying, it's not going anywhere. Keep in mind you're cont splitting those stab mantras so adding extra stacks and duration. 

 

Mesmer in PvP is likely going to be meta after the changes. General consensus by the streamers and high tier players over on twitch and as a hardcore mes main I fully agree with that. 

 

If you roam on chrono and stuff you should be capable of realizing how incredibly big it is that we've got distortion back. Its good in zergs but it's absolutely amazing for roaming and 1v1ing etc. And virtuoso getting distortion in addition to all those blocks and that low cd bladeturn requiem is flat out broken. 

If you don't play in those zergs probably shouldn't be giving opinions on those zergs. What they touched doesn't even affect you as a roamer and the other things they've added are significant buffs. And the thing you might actually take for roaming, stab mantra, got buffed. 

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by ImBach.9013

[Floz.8904]

-EDIT-

If you wanna make supports equally viable, make sure you dont remove the Seed of Life from the glyph passive for Druid. It makes them have near 0 condi cleanse outside of avatar and that'll make it useless for ~10s windows.

-Original post-

Coming from a purely WvW perspective with compd groups as the main play experience, the changes to address support balance are definitely needed. Druid buffs are good, vindi rework is interesting and will be overpowered very soon (still have some interaction issues with skills like Line of Warding in the dodge animation). The scrapper nerfs are coming from the right place but I honestly think you've nerfed the wrong things.

 

Med dispersion fine, fumigate fine, but the gyros and defense fields are a miss here. Reduce the cooldowns if you want, but making them stationary skills will gut scrapper to a non-playable level.

 

If the intent is to mitigate stealth access and slide scrapper under the rug, this is the play. If you want them to still be considered, have the gyros move with the player.

 

Other key points to nerf would be medkit 1 ratios and purity of purpose, by doing that you bring the scrapper strengths back in line with other supports.

 

With the nerfs as they sit now, heal vindi and heal druid (post buff) are just flat out better and scrappers will be kicked to the curb.

 

For a comparison

Scrapper has the best heals and best boon protection by converting condis to boons and provides stealth and superspeed.

 

Tempy has fantastic cc and auras and can cleanse more, however this comes at the cost of not running monk runes and not converting and thus losing approx 20% healing effectiveness.

 

Vindi has the best raw healing but loses access to the cc and utility that scrapper provides.

 

Druid (post patch) will fit between vindi and tempy and the new tier for the healing support slot would be;

Vindi

Druid

Tempy

Scrapper

 

Please consider reverting the stationary aspect of gyros and defense field, otherwise i feel like engis will have limited viability in group content. Look to Purity of Purpose, medkit 1 and stealth/utility access as the scrapper's strengths and adjust them to align with the other supports of the hour.

 

Moving the right way though.

 

Cheers

Edited September 17, 2022 by Floz.8904