October 4 Balance Update Preview

[SoulBlaze.3059]

Elementalist needs a mega nerf since they can bunker beyond control. 

[Carnifex.3275]

2 hours ago, Vegeta.2563 said:

So you gain superspeed on wells on use instead of on final pulse, ok that's fine.

What about Sneak Gyro's stealth?  You have to stand in that to stay stealth and lose it when you leave.

Sounds pointless to use.

Meanwhile thief always had to use Shadows Refuge stationary just like a Well and even wait for all the pulses to happen. And people complained how OP it is... 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Carnifex.3275

[Jokuc.3478]

• I really don't like the Gyro change to  ground target on Scrapper. It removes some of the class identity. The amount of nerfs is already a lot.
• Instead of buffing the stab mantra on Mesmer I would have liked to see buffs to stab on Tempest.
• Distortion on all Mesmer specs is not a good idea. Virt is already strong as it is, it doesn't need an invul to make it even stronger.
• I'm OK with giving Mirage its 2nd dodge back, but be careful so it doesn't become too annoying to fight. I really hope you will not change the way Mirage cloak works as I would rather prefer to keep it at 1 dodge if that is the case.
• And since you mentioned it) I actually don't think the PMech nerfs in PvE will be enough. Even if dmg goes goes down to 34k it still has long range and rapid firing attacks that are extremely consistent, it gives itself quickness thanks to the Jade Dynamo trait which in a pug group means you'll have more quick than most other people, and Shift Signet is still OP and need some of its functionality moved to other skills (moving the the condi cleanse and boon copy to another skill makes sense to me as the other things are themed around movement and thus fit together with that skill).

Sorry I'm only mentioning the stuff I didn't like or what worries me, just assume I think everything else is fine for now!

Edited September 18, 2022 by Jokuc.3478

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

1 hour ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Its "strong" in the way that its the second-best thief build. In a gamemode that naturally favours thief. But strong as in has potential to be dominant? Nah. Itll just be the new D/P Thief at best, a 1-of per team, if even that. Its good at +1s, rubbish in teamfight, rubbish in 1v1s. 

If there's something that you need more of than one on a team like with the willbender / garbinger meta, that's not good balance and I don't know why you think it is. It kinda sounds like you want to have 3-4+ thieves in games. 

 

It's not rubbish in teamfights nor is it rubbish in 1v1s. I play a good amount of deadeye in plat 1 / plat 2ish. It's quite good at both of those things. It's a strong pick even right now and its gonna get stronger now that some of the meta stuff is getting nerfed. 

 

You don't have to believe me, but if I were you, I'd probably just roll with what the top pvpers are saying about it. There's no shame in admitting you're not the most informed about something. 

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by ImBach.9013

[Kaizz.7306]

20 hours ago, melodyspectrum.2980 said:

 

And now it's just Healbrand, (which is still oppressively meta in Fractals, but from the sound of it it IS also a must in WvW which is the topic), but I guess that's fine since it's the golden child along with pve mech.

 

Mech is the new kid on the block with the shiny toys that's just easily accessible. It is nowhere near as dominant as Firebrands. You cannot play wvw for organized content without a Firebrand, but bringing a mech is straight trolling. In PvP, that's the only mode where Firebrands don't run the meta. You do not HAVE to bring a HAM to T4's, there are other options, but tehy require a bit mroe effort. You're not replacing Firebrand. I'm not saying Mechanists are absolutely insane, but until I can run 1 build with mechanist, and be the backbone of every team in almost every mode like FB, I really don't like that argument.

[Kuma.1503]

Since we're homogenizing Scrapper wells, when can we expect Specter to get the same treatment?

No other class has 5 free mobility spells on their wells. 

--Nevermind the trade-off of throwing yourself into danger when you cast this into the middle of an enemy  zerg. This is irrelevant in the eyes of fairness.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Zoser.7245]

3 hours ago, Carnifex.3275 said:

Meanwhile thief always had to use Shadows Refuge stationary just like a Well and even wait for all the pulses to happen. And people complained how OP it is... 

Shadow Refuge had and has a lot of synergies with a lot of traits related to the stealth mechanic and also gives 3 seconds of stealth per pulse for 5 pulses, so 15 seconds of stealth in total but the most important is that you get a lot more per pulse giving you more flexibility, you have 10s of stealth margin after 5 seconds, a lot more stacked stealth in less time than the Sneak Gyro to resolve the situation and Shadow Refuge also heals you:    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Refuge   Thief also has great skills and tools to combo and in-out of the Shadow Refuge in stealth when needed. 

Scrapper lacks those goodies and Sneak Gyro only provides  1,5s  of stealth per pulse being an elite skill to a total of  9 seconds after 6 pulses which means that you ony stacks 0,5 seconds of stealth fo each second inside the skill area and after the whole 6 seconds inside the area you only have 3 seconds of margin in stealth. As you will be revealed really soon if you leave the area, it will always be flooded by enemy AoE, is not like a thief that has a lot of more resources  to play around their Shadow Refuge without being revealed  by the lack of stacked stealth.

There is only a single trait for Gyros that gives 1,5s of superspeed and  after the patch no more quickness from gyros related to the superspeed application and nothing impactful related to the Gyros less the superspeed. So the new ground target Sneak Gyro will be a crappy elite skill by itself after the change.  The old "original" ground target Sneak Gyro had a lot more stealth provided in its initial design, when the Scrapper was released.

Another funny gyro to watch after the patch will be the "Bulwark Gyro". Wells by definition only affect their area of effect...   They have no published changes and reworks to the gyro skills, so as it works now, once you'll land it at range on your allies to help them... you will take part of their damage without the barrier that your well/gyro provides if you are inside its area of effect.  Or in other words, unless they rework it, it will  be often a suicide skill for you.  ☠️

I have the feeling that they didn't put attention to  the Scrapper changes more that nerf that sh*t. And no balancing team developer really cared of it and they followed the lazy way like before have the new "dedicated balance team".  On the other hand, it looks like some new member of the balance team did a great job for the profession he plays in competitive...   So it seems that nothing has changed in that sense. 😒

 

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Zoser.7245

[Bizgurk.5639]

1.       Specter
I do agree that Specter is currently overperforming in Pvp. Those changes to shroud, however, will cause an off-target effect to other game modes. Heal and support Specter are inferior to other professions in Pve due to the lack of might. In Wvw zerg Heal Specter has no place already… and will be made even worse now. At least make this change Pvp only until you come up with a solution to keep them viable in other game modes.
 

2.       Scrapper
Yes, Heal Scrapper was overperforming in Wvw since quite a long time now and toning him down is right. But those ground target changes will create another off target effect to other builds and to other game modes. Quickness Firebrand is still preferred over Scrapper in Pve and in Wvw Dps Scrapper isn’t even a commanders third choice.
I wish you’d implement those Wvw changes to cleansing, stability and healing output first, without the ground target changes and observe the outcome for one or two months.
 

3.       Trade-offs
Virtuoso has a great Damage output in Pve, Chronomancer has its spot in Wvw Zerg, Soulbeast is a viable Dps choice in Pve and Wvw Roaming. Those professions are being played in at least one game mode and are being made better by removing the trade-off.
Reaper and Weaver on the other hand are non-existent in any game mode at all, yet no changes for those who need them the most. That’s unfair!

4.       Warrior changes! Finally!

[Vampiremax.8350]

Great changes! Really like the warrior revisit and soulbeast petswap. After last patch I was a bit fearful for the GW2 direction, but with CMC at tye wheel I really look forward to see november patch. (Great stream btw!!)

 

However, scrapper well changes, maybe make a trait to have your gyros have the wells on you? So the wells function like they do now?

Old topic, but I would still love to see herald quickness changed to something more thematic than "when you consume". Feels bad imo.

 

Keep up the great communication and I hope to see more of this! ❤

[Gorem.8104]

Lot of reading and musing over to do, interesting changes to Soulbeast, I mean the pet itself needs a large overhaul and Engineer right now is the games pet class, not Ranger. Our pets need huge changes and buffs, I saw Muk do a livestream to show that the turtle pet can't actually ever hit anything. Interesting change on us losing our effects on merge and it be pet swap instead, and even more interesting we are losing our survival trait to prevent death and its getting replaced with heals and the ability to swap while merged. 

But the first thing I honestly looked for, as i'll read the Warrior changes later, is Mechanist is not even mentioned here.... LOL Edit: even worse is it seems like they ignored the changes Engineers need like pistol updates and turrets and nerfed Scrapper out of existence. 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[Kydar Schattendolch.6879]

6 hours ago, Vegeta.2563 said:

So you gain superspeed on wells on use instead of on final pulse, ok that's fine.

What about Sneak Gyro's stealth?  You have to stand in that to stay stealth and lose it when you leave.

Sounds pointless to use.

Would be the same as thief's shadow refuge then =(

[soul.9651]

Vindicator changes looks nice so far, but i hope they wont forget to take a look at Archemorus skills and especially elite(which either needs a total rework or some damage boost aswell plus torment stacks are just awkward on it rn)

at least for pve

Edited September 18, 2022 by soul.9651

[Trigarta.3841]

The Gyro changes kill Scrapper for me. The Gyrowell following you around made this spec. I hate ground targeted abilities. It is always a bit clunky to perfectly target an area in a big fight. If you really want to take that away, I guess I would be more okay with the wells being placed at the current position of the player and not being ground targeted. Some people probably like ground targetting, I just don't

The Ranger changes do look very interesting though. I hope more support love for other specs is on the way. I would like to see specter being a thing in WvW, Vindicator being more viable. Still not happy about Alacrity being on the Lucid Singularity trait for Tempest. Takes away from Elemental Bastion. Alacrity could be put on Hardy Conduit to give more choice.

[nthmetal.9652]

On 9/16/2022 at 10:31 PM, UNOwen.7132 said:

CC skills should do normal damage, and the change to reduce their damage to 0 should be reverted in its entirety. That philosophy clearly ended up causing massive problems, such as making Revenge Counter useless (since its a tratit that buffs the damage of a skill that doesnt do damage), [...]

Strong disagreement here. CC skills are incredibly strong in WvW and generally in the game even outside of WvW, CC as a mechanic, which takes away agency is a very strong tool. The problem isn't CC skills doing no damage, but the lack of an overall design overhaul in regards of this change. OF COURSE traits which affect damage on CC skills are busted now, but that only means these traits need to get reworked.

 

[nthmetal.9652]

On 9/16/2022 at 10:39 PM, Bomboed.5697 said:

Who asked for scrapper changes? Nobody.

Wrong. The dominance of scrapper in WvW as a healing spec so far was as justified as it was annoying. Yes, you can play Tempest, and as a tempest you offer some unique stuff, such as auras, but compare the impact of auras to the impact of scrapper features: Stealth fields and superspeed. While the Tempest auras are nice to have, they will not win or lose you a fight. A good stealth engage however, and good mobility however will do just that.

And that by itself isn't even a problem: While Scrapper brings these important, useful things, it also typically outperforms Tempest both in the healing and cleansing aspects. (If you play a tempest well, and are set up for it, you can keep up in cleanses, but even then a scrapper heals like 40%+ more, when played well) - and THAT is the problem.

And if you don't wanna heal? You can go damage and usually outperform tempest in that area, too compared to a damage tempest.

Edited September 18, 2022 by nthmetal.9652
clarifying the problem as I see it

[Luthan.5236]

I played mainly core engineer - then each elite spec starting with the expansion they got released - when doing the maps and story in release order. Sticking with mecha for now. For PvP/WvW I only used core and mecha. Did not like the scrapper and holo. Now with this change it seems like the shield will get more interesting again. Since we can save one trait (not needed for the cooldown reduction anymore). Might be more interesting to try a bunker-ish mecha now. (Had switchd from mace/shield to rifle since the rifle got buffed.)

Scrapper ...  seems like they want to encourage a mid/ranged style of play? With the stuff being ground targeted you can use it while others are there in melee - while going more ranged. (Possibly more towards damage - not bunker-style of play.) I might want to try this with a rifle. The pistol and shield ... still can't see myself using them. Shield only for sword/mace (and the elite specs that use them).

Seems like people prefer to have stuff centered around the char though. (At least they "fixesd" a bug for ranger spirits where the buff got centered around the ranger and I remember people complaining about that when they would have preferred the bugged version. Though spirits afaik can be killed and therefore more risky. While other skills that just appear and tick ... it might be interesting to have them ground at a specific location.)

Edited September 18, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[SoulGuardian.6203]

I always thought imo that sword weaver was a bad combination. 

I'm in a Love/Hate situation with this ES.

Yet nothing was done to this brushed aside and forgotten es.

 

Weavers should have a different weapon other than sword.

I like the sword on ele, just not on weaver.

 

Reapers were nerfed too and then brushed aside aswell. 

I used to solo a lot of champions with Reaper, and now it's just a shadow of its former self.

Healing on reaper is very mediocre to say tbe least. 

 

We can speculate, but we will see how the changes will effect gameplay.

 

Scrappers, as the name implies, should be all about recycling right?

In this case, recycling skills.

So how about this.

Forget the wells altogether. 

Give scrappers the ability to recycle skills.

Meaning, give the ES utility skills a second purpose.

 

For instance, you spawn a gyro. The skill will activate a second skill to explode a gyro before time runs out; in wich, if you explode the gyro earlier, it will become scrap.

The F5 function to recycle the scrap you accumulated.

This would spawn a mega Gyro that does all the functions of the gyros you used.

 

Please increase Engineer rifle damage output.

 

Another idea instead of wells, would be that scrappers could have the ability to upgrade turrets and make them mobile... and other Utility Skills.

Give them that extra kick that only scrappers could use.

Upgrade turrets, flame thrower, elixir rifle, etc...

 

You wanna give wells to somebody, give them to core mesmer for mantra effects or other mesmer uss.

 

I take this opportunity to ask you again for elementalist core Great Sword and long bow as perma weapons and replace all those conjure weapons Utilities... that nobody uses.

Now that we have a perma hammer on cata, there's no need for conjured hammer.

 

There are a ton of changes that players have been requesting for years ANet,  all you have to do is read the request/suggestions class forums.

 

I have read so many good ideas from other players here.

 

One of them was a elementals rework.

They need to have the same function as necro minions.

Have a perma time manifest or until slayed in battle.

 

I'm just not sure how i feel about the tempest changes though.

Will this nerf anything or just getting the same mechanics as catalyst? 

I like tempest the way it is now.

Is it an improvement or a nerf?

 

I do like my elementalists.

 

At least Mirage are getting those F skills changed to get sime uniqueness, from what I've gathered.

 

I'll have to watch the video again.

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Tseison.4659]

8 hours ago, Jokuc.3478 said:

• Distortion on all Mesmer specs is not a good idea. Virt is already strong as it is, it doesn't need an invul to make it even stronger.
• I'm OK with giving Mirage its 2nd dodge back, but be careful so it doesn't become too annoying to fight. I really hope you will not change the way Mirage cloak works as I would rather prefer to keep it at 1 dodge if that is the case.

Not being bias and more so reasonable in my responses when it comes to the Mesmer. Being a main and we of the Mesmer community find the Distortion a welcoming addition to Chronomancer, since it's not really powerful if you have to generate Clones to lengthen the duration.

Now in terms of the Virtuoso and getting Distortion, THAT is what we ourselves are worried about as this will create complications in PvP/WvW with there being overlap of Distortion.

I have already voiced during beta for Virtuoso that Blade Renewal should've been our F4 Instead of Bladeturn Requiem, but clearly that feedback wasn't taken to consideration  nor was it part of their "concept" apparently.

We still have time to wait and see if they'll reconsider giving Virtuoso Distortion because truthfully I personally don't think they need it. But if they are still going to push that through, they'll probably have its CD increased, make it so that Signet of Illusions won't completely reset it or affect it just like CS for chrono or they'll just monitor it and make appropriate adjustments. Swapping Bladeturn Requiem and Blade Renewal I still stand behind and should've happened awhile ago tbh.

In terms of the Mirage not getting the 2nd dodge back. Sorry to be that person but the moment I saw Vindi get a 2nd dodge, that CLEARLY shows that one dodge DOES NOT work nor is it sitting well with the rest of the community (Rev & Mes) with how clunky and crippling it was. What changes they'll do to compensate this return I have no idea, but it's coming back regardless and there's far worse professions to fight up against than Mirage that you have to worry about. You're not always going to win EVERY encounter out in PvP/WvW, especially against a good Mesmer with very few of us left out there in the world. Just to keep that in mind.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Tseison.4659

[MagnustheDemon.5174]

I should mention that my fear for these changes will bleed into pve. I know this update primarily focus on the aspects of WvW and PvP. I'm not how sure how great of a change these are in those instances, but as someone who plays exclusivel;y pve, i'm just afraid that i wont be able to play as well. And the reason for the fears is next to the notes of the scrapper wells being targetable aoes, it does not mention anything about it being a wvw or pvp exclusive change. Ive stated this before, but scrapper is the class that helps me play the game. It requires very little input which is nice because i really struggle with other heavy input classes due to physical limitations. Thats why i'm very vocal about it

[KratosAngel.7289]

A lot of good changes for the game, very likely.

I would like to discuss only the gyro change only in this post.

 

Seeing the number of posts asking to revert the change, I wanted to think a different approach as we know that, once Anet has set their mind about a change, there's hardly a chance of them backing up.
So I tried to weigh the pros and cons and think about how to improve the cons.

Basically, the impact of the changes :
- "fix" scrapper in WvW : we'll see how it goes, but let's assume so
- + : it improves superspeed/quickness providing through the boon now applied on use instead of at the end of the well
- + : it also allows to provide these boons from range
- + : it allows to use gyros on a target even if we have to move away from it due to mechanics, AOE ...
- - : identity loss, I will let that aside since it's kinda subjective
- - : it is now easy to move out of gyro range. It affects both pvp/wvw and pve. In pvp/wvw, players who are not idiots will gtfo fast and the scrapper will actually be able to do way less damage/cc than before even if the scrapper can stick to melee, except if he can root/stun the enemy.
In PvE, we have some bosses that like to move around, be it in raid or in strikes. Strikes in particular seem to want us to have to move and boss will move from time to time

 

So basically, outside of boon providing in WvW, it would be a win in a lot of situations, but a loss for using the damage/cc on moving targets. 
Blast Gyro is on a 3 sec delay before CC and shredder is for 6 seconds.
A solution would be to improve gyros accordingly to these changes to offset the minus.
In this case, we could use gyros functioning faster : maybe blast could go in only 2 sec pulse before the CC, making it a bit harder to evade but still having time to do so. In PvE, it would make it pretty unlikely that boss can move out of it in time except if scrapper screwed up in the timing.
As for shredder gyro, it could use "compressed" damage : instead of doing the dmg within 6 seconds, it would be reduced to 4 seconds, or even 3 seconds and improve the damage on each "pulse" accordingly.
Again, it makes it fair to evade out of it but still short enough to be able to land most of the damage if scrapper has a good timing. A boss is less likely to negate most of a 3/4 sec pulse than of a 6 sec (pretty huge) and, even if it does, the impact is less due to improved damage on each pulse.

 

TL;DR : if changes go live in any case (very likely), it would bring some good aspects please consider improving gyros to adjust, namely compress duration/damage for blast gyro and shredder gyro especially (probably others but I think mostly about them).
 

[SoulBlaze.3059]

engineers consistently have too much mobility and antistun for the damage they do, nerf them harder.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On the Warrior Berserker changes, please reconsider "Berserk mode now activates instantly." bit. Choosing when to trigger can be key in a fight and not being able to time that could be an issue since if you aren't controlling that sequence and with the duration reduction you might just waste that attack opportunity specially against sustain builds. Passive activations remove the player's choose on when and how to use that burst.

[UNOwen.7132]

5 hours ago, nthmetal.9652 said:

Strong disagreement here. CC skills are incredibly strong in WvW and generally in the game even outside of WvW, CC as a mechanic, which takes away agency is a very strong tool. The problem isn't CC skills doing no damage, but the lack of an overall design overhaul in regards of this change. OF COURSE traits which affect damage on CC skills are busted now, but that only means these traits need to get reworked.

 

SOME CC skills are strong. The ones applying condi that werent nerfed, and the ones that never did damage (or did very little) in the first place. Aka, the ones this change didnt apply to. The ones it did apply to? Theyre bad. All of them are. Executioners Scythe is terrible, Prime Light Beam is terrible, Earthshatter is terrible, Mace burst is terrible, and so on. The problem is 100% CC skills doing no damage, because it took a category that was balanced against each other with a bunch of different angles, like cast time vs damage vs duration and so on. And it basically made half of them useless, while keeping the others untouched.

 

It broke the balance. And it ruined flavour, because now Prime Light Beam, a giant bloody laser, is basically hitting you with the force of a half-heartedly pumped water gun. Executioners Scythe literally cant execute you. There is no way to fix that without just making those skills something they arent, and the game much less exciting. The problem is not the traits. The problem is cc skills doing damage. And it needs to be reverted in its entirety.

[Bunny.9834]

Really confused when it comes to the tradeoffs. We're back to straight up power creep again. 

The only thing I agree with was removing the straight up attribute reduction. 

[tyler.1653]

Anet.... Cal.... I've talked with map chat so many times about this and I see zero steps being taken to begin progress... Reaper needs shroud skill 1 to also apply alacrity. Weather it is through an adjusted trait, or a direct addition. Weather it is self applied or group applied (honestly that would be really cool in zergs lol). Either way, it needs to happen and the people have spoken.