October 4 Balance Update Preview

[UNOwen.7132]

22 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

So what? Not being able to mindlessly spam projectiles for a few seconds, such horror ...There are projectile spammers everywhere and they can be very oppressive without projectile denial. Players shouldn't always get away with their mindless spam. If projectiles were as bad as people claim, WvW wouldn't be full of projectile builds. That being said, uptime on certain projectile denial skills could certainly be adjusted. But limiting the amount of projectiles should never be the "solution". It disproportionally favours certain builds (multi hit, fast attack speed) as well as superior numbers, that already have the innate benefit of having more players and certainly don't need any more advantages.

So what? Imagine if there was a skill that created a big field that said "block any attack that isnt from outside this field" or however you would word that. Do you think thats fair? No of course not. Thats what Tempests Swirling Winds is.

 

WvW is "full of projectile builds"? Theres a couple, but theyre much rarer compared to ground targetted AoEs and more importantly, melee. In fact, the fact that projectiles are so easily stopped is why there arent a lot of projectile builds. You have to pretty much be dueling to get much use out of it.

[Kydar Schattendolch.6879]

Not a fan of removing mobile Gyros too for scrapper. I'm ok with the quickness nerv as long as it is pvp/wvw  exclusive. 

 

Great changes for Druid so far. 

 

Not sure about soulbeast eternal bond. Would love to see this baseline but would maybe op. 

 

Love vindicator dodge change. But please, don't ruin gm traits totally =(

 

If specter gets shroud hp reduced, pls add dmg reduction while in shroud at least.

And pls give specter some cleave on scepter skills and shroud 1. And shroud 5 should affect 5 allies. And I would also like to see +3 ini from trickery baseline, but let's talk about this for the november update again XD

Edited September 19, 2022 by Kydar Schattendolch.6879

[yakkin.7189]

The proposed changes to Spectre feel a bit rushed because they negatively impact the class in PvE, contrary to the stated design goal of addressing Specter's dominance in PvP. Consume Shadows is a very strong trait for all PvE Spectre builds, particularly given its nonexistent opportunity cost. Its healing output is a product of the total Shroud pool, but reducing that pool to nerf Consume Shadows has the side effect of making Spectre more more susceptible to incoming damage. This is noteworthy because Thief has significantly less Vitality than Necromancer (from which Specter inherits the 0.69 conversion ratio) and less damage reduction than Reaper, the other meta build which absorbs damage into shroud. Taking too much damage will prevent healing AND DPS output, doubly penalizing the player.

There are other ways to tune down the healing output which don't penalize the DPS build in the above manner, e.g. reducing the scaling of Consume Shadows or adjusting the Spectre traitline to introduce a stronger DPS opportunity cost in the first column—at present Consume Shadows is approximately an 800 DPS increase for the Viper DPS build if the player is able to apply barrier to 4 allies with every shroud exit.

By contrast, Consume Shadows healing is a significant component of the viability in the Alacrity builds, as it is a mediocre boon-provider. The previewed changes to Well of Bounty improve Alacrity Specter's boon support, but it is still has problems: Thief now has no means of providing group regeneration, Protection is locked behind Shadow Arts and blasting Smoke fields with offhand pistol which constitutes a massive DPS loss, and Alacrity specter noticeably provides less Might than most other Alacrity-DPS builds, especially powerhouses like Staff Mirage and Alacrity Mechanist. The Fury and Vigor on Well of Bounty are redundant with traits in the Trickery traitline, so they are effectively wasted space.

[kidbuu.4071]

 

[ascii.1369]

As a Mesmer player mostly romaing in WvW and playing sPvP I guess I'm gonna give my two cents aswell.

 

First of all, thank you for finally updating PvP game modes. Very happy to see this and I think the general direction of this patch is the correct one. I really hope some of the necessary changes, like scrapper wells no longer moving or the nerf to Specter shroud, stay in, even with people complaining about it.

 

When it comes to Mesmer, which is what I play almost exclusively, I am generally happy you are working on making it more viable. I'm not entirely sure the problem is diagnosed correctly though. So lets go over it specialization by specialization, with a more general conclusion at the end.

 

Virtuoso:

I really don't think Virtuoso needs Distortion. Survivability isn't a problem and its F4 already is a defensive button. If you desperatly want to standardize F4 more, turn the block into distortion and keep the damaging balde effect as is.

 

Some much more needed changes to Virtuoso would be to look at how clunky its shatters are in PvP. Against a quick melee class, like Thief, Willbender or Revanent, half the time shatters don't even go off, as they move behind you during the cast time. Two easy solutions to this, make them instant or not require facing the target. Either of those changes would prevent shatters going on a five second cd because the target moved during cast time.

Same issue with Virtuoso heal skill, you need to detarget the enemy if you want to heal while running away. I really hope you'll consider changing this.

 

Chrono:

For Chrono I think getting Distortion is nice, if you have no other changes planned at the moment. However, I'm again not sure if giving distortion back is actually the right move. In my opinion, Mesmer generally doesn't lack tools to prevent damage, it struggles with healing whatever damage can't be prevented. While an additional button to prevent damage always helps, it doesn't fix the issue that whatever damage you do take is kind of permanent as Mesmer. I think giving Mesmer better tools to resustain would be healthier for how the class plays and less frustrating to play against for other players.

 

Mirage:

Not much to say here, since Mirage changes won't be in this patch. But nice to hear you're looking into giving the dodge back. Nerfing Mirage specific mechanics, that don't affect other specializations, while keeping both dodges would have been the way to go from the start in my opinion.

 

Conclusion:

All the upcoming changes (Distortion for Virtuoso/Chrono, second dodge for Mirage) focus on survivability. While I think we're moving in the right direction with you looking at the survivability of Mesmer, I'm not sure the problem is diagnosed correctly. The general issue as I see it, esspecially in WvW roaming, is Mesmers inability to resustain (with celestial Virtuoso + rune of the defender being a bit of an exception).

Obviously Distortion can do a lot of work here, since taking less damage means less healing required. However, the general problem stays the same. The damage you do take can't be resustained the way other classes can. As it stands, disengaging from a Mesmer has no cost, as the Mesmers health will change very little, while the other class can use this time to heal.

It also might be significantly more frustrating to play against Distortion. To get no damage through just feels worse than dealing a lot of damage, but your enemy manages to heal again. One feels like "wow, I almost had him" and the other feels like "what is this broken perma invuln kitten". Further, it might also be more frustrating for the Mesmer player themself. Preventing damage is much more difficult than healing back up after you've taken it. This makes Mesmer very unfriendly to new or less skilled players, since they might lack the mechanics and game knowledge to anticipate incoming damage. It punishes every little mistake quite harshly.

 

Last Thought:

One more thing to think about is mobility. Being more mobile than the enemy gives an insane amount of controle over a fight. While this is not directly linked to the healing vs damage prevention debate, everything would look much different if Mesmer was one of the most mobile classes. While it is hard to say how a very significant increase in mobility would affect PvP game modes, even just having Virtuoso sword three is a bit of a game changer. If I look at what is possible on signet Mirage with sword ambush, mobility could be a viable alternative to making Mesmer more tanky/sustainy. Just give blink two charges and see what happens XD.

[sybar.8952]

Stationary wells on the Scrapper is a bad idea, the cooldown needs to drop a lot.  Please don't do this.

[SloRules.3560]

3 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

So what? Not being able to mindlessly spam projectiles for a few seconds, such horror ...There are projectile spammers everywhere and they can be very oppressive without projectile denial. Players shouldn't always get away with their mindless spam. If projectiles were as bad as people claim, WvW wouldn't be full of projectile builds. That being said, uptime on certain projectile denial skills could certainly be adjusted. But limiting the amount of projectiles should never be the "solution". It disproportionally favours certain builds (multi hit, fast attack speed) as well as superior numbers, that already have the innate benefit of having more players and certainly don't need any more advantages.

What projectile builds?

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

A few more thoughts on Warrior:

 

The new Merciless Hammer trait misses the mark.

Good idea, but won't be very useful in reality.  Only Mace and Hammer skills do extra dmg to CC'd foes...but most of the skills on those weapons are MORE CCs (which do no damage and will just cancel out the initial CC).  This is less a problem on Hammer since skills 2 and 3 are good dmg dealers, but Mace....? What am I gonna hit 'em with?  Only Crushing Blow (Mace 4) is an actual damage dealer.  Thus, this trait will have little real impact (unless....you're planning to rework Mace in the near future?!?  Pretty Please?!?  I've got ideas you can borrow... 😃).

 

My Suggestion:

Merciless hammer:

Gain Adrenaline (7) and inflict vulnerability (15 stacks for 5s) when you disable a foe.

 

This has the following advantages:

1) Increases dmg for all weapons and power AND condi builds

2) Provides a cover condi

3) Improves dmg output of your teammates focusing the same target

4) lasts longer than the 1-2seconds that a player is typically disabled for

5) has some counterplay as it can be cleansed

 

Stances have too long CDs:

I am beyond excited for the new Last Stand trait, but it's hard to make it work with stances in their current state.  The problem with most is that their CD is too long (especially in PvP; less so in WvW).  

 

Please consider reducing the CD on a few.  A few suggestions:

 

Berserker Stance: 20s CD

This brings it in line with Signet of Fury.  A CD reduction is definitely warranted since Resistance was nerfed.  If you're worried about that being too strong, you could make it last 3 seconds (4 with trait) and provide 10 adrenaline per second.

 

Balanced Stance: 40s CD

It's great in WvW, but its 60s CD in PvP is excessive.

 

Frenzy:  25s CD

It's really hard to justify taking this over Endure pain or another stun break at 40s CD.  Even if you're looking for pure offense, it's hard to pick this over For Great Justice since FGJ has 2 charges AND a lower CD.  You could lower the quickness duration to compensate if needed.

 

These changes would make both the skills more attractive on their own but also make it more feasible to take several on your bar to maximize the benefit of Last Stand.

 

Thanks for considering it!

[lex de gouw.6214]

Really like most of the changes and am really excited to try out some builds like the vindicator! I can't help but to wonder how the scrapper gyro changes will work out though. Personally I like the flavor of how the gyro's work at the moment, but I can also see how the ability to use them at range can be a benefit in certain situations (like when you want to support from a distance). For some gyro's the ranged option will be a buff I think, but for some gyro's it may feel really clunky. Also I can't help but notice the contradiction in getting the superspeed so you can run really fast, but you have to stand still in the well to get its effects like condi cleanse/stealth etc.

Let's say you try to use blast gyro on another group, for this skill you kinda want it to be on the group for atleast most of the time (for might), but you also want it to end on the enemy. When you have to hit the enemy with it however you have to guess where they will be in the next 3 seconds and even then they can just easily react as they have 3 seconds to respond.
For this skill a really cool synergy would actually be to have a mix of the changes like having the superspeed at the start but then being able to use that superspeed to run towards and stick to a target that you want to damage/stun.


For a skill like defensive field on the other hand, it will be a good buff I think as it seems realy beneficial  to place it on the source of the projectiles while not having to stand on the source yourself (as this may be really dangerous and you may not have the time to walk over there)

Edited September 19, 2022 by lex de gouw.6214

[Gorem.8104]

9 hours ago, Tammuz.7361 said:

Agree they need a game mode split in the skill here.

 

Maybe what they should do is add 2 more build screens to our character build menu's, like how PVP has its own section. Give us a wvw build tab, pvp build tab and pve build tab (which also shows what weapon and utilities do for each mode), that way at least we can tell the difference between modes and build accordingly without needing to worry about abilities having three versions of themselves. Scrapper was op in wvw yes, but that was the only thing it had after all the nerfs and Mechanist existing. Now it has nothing. At least it could have kept Gyro's how they are for pve. 

 

 

[Gorem.8104]

I love how, honestly, with these changes... it looks like Warrior is actually getting a nerf. Defence honestly looks like a worse traitline for open world play then it currently is. 

[Zoser.7245]

On 9/18/2022 at 8:52 AM, Zoser.7245 said:

Shadow Refuge had and has a lot of synergies with a lot of traits related to the stealth mechanic and also gives 3 seconds of stealth per pulse for 5 pulses, so 15 seconds of stealth in total but the most important is that you get a lot more per pulse giving you more flexibility, you have 10s of stealth margin after 5 seconds, a lot more stacked stealth in less time than the Sneak Gyro to resolve the situation and Shadow Refuge also heals you:    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Refuge   Thief also has great skills and tools to combo and in-out of the Shadow Refuge in stealth when needed. 

Scrapper lacks those goodies and Sneak Gyro only provides  1,5s  of stealth per pulse being an elite skill to a total of  9 seconds after 6 pulses which means that you ony stacks 0,5 seconds of stealth fo each second inside the skill area and after the whole 6 seconds inside the area you only have 3 seconds of margin in stealth. As you will be revealed really soon if you leave the area, it will always be flooded by enemy AoE, is not like a thief that has a lot of more resources  to play around their Shadow Refuge without being revealed  by the lack of stacked stealth.

There is only a single trait for Gyros that gives 1,5s of superspeed and  after the patch no more quickness from gyros related to the superspeed application and nothing impactful related to the Gyros less the superspeed. So the new ground target Sneak Gyro will be a crappy elite skill by itself after the change.  The old "original" ground target Sneak Gyro had a lot more stealth provided in its initial design, when the Scrapper was released.

Another funny gyro to watch after the patch will be the "Bulwark Gyro". Wells by definition only affect their area of effect...   They have no published changes and reworks to the gyro skills, so as it works now, once you'll land it at range on your allies to help them... you will take part of their damage without the barrier that your well/gyro provides if you are inside its area of effect.  Or in other words, unless they rework it, it will  be often a suicide skill for you.  ☠️

I have the feeling that they didn't put attention to  the Scrapper changes more that nerf that sh*t. And no balancing team developer really cared of it and they followed the lazy way like before have the new "dedicated balance team".  On the other hand, it looks like some new member of the balance team did a great job for the profession he plays in competitive...   So it seems that nothing has changed in that sense. 😒

 

 

The defensive Gyros, as i explained above, will suc*  with a ground target mechanic unless those skills are reworked. But also the Blast Gyro. I forgot about the Blast Gyro.  If that sh*t   with a delay of 3 seconds until its blast hits someone being a static area, it must be because it is an stupid AI.  No one is going to be in its area like an idiot for 3 whole seconds.  

The  current skills of the gyros are not designed to be ground target. Also, in competitive, with the remove of the cripple in the scourge skills, less soft cc, less cleanses and more stability available... it will be a lot easier to avoid the static areas. Which makes the proposed change even a bigger nerf.  So, lets see what they finally do with them.  They can't say that we did not gave them enough feedback to avoid a big mistake or, at least, advice/warn them that they need to rework those skills to be enough useful with the ground target mechanic or keep them as they are now and find an alternative way of balance them.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Zoser.7245

[BeardRex.6739]

I do like, flavor--wise, that they will feel more like separate entities to the scrapper, but I prefer my own vision for how thy should work.

 

1) Dropping the gyro away from you, will leave it stationary like the new change.

2) Dropping the gyro on top of you, will attach it to you like the old way.

3) Using the toolbelt skill detach the gyro from you and leave it stationary. (no more moving projectile block from bulwark)

 

Now, 2 and/or 3 could also be trait related, OR there could be a trait that makes gyros operate as they do pre-patch.

 

I just think having them one way or the other is boring, and if we're looking for more skillful ways to play, or tradeoffs for powerful effects, I think changes in the vein of what I have suggested would be more interesting.

[SoulBlaze.3059]

Wow if they nerf herald there will be no reason to pvp with revenant, every other spec is outclassed by any other class.

[Myror.7521]

@Gorem.8104 now is the question for what would you just play defence in the open world when you could easily cleave everything in seconds just on full glass build xd. Tho it is not a nerf to warr in open World. The only "nerf" i would maybe see is  the Rousing Resilence rework and maybe the New defy pain but its still a somewhat decent traitline.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

4 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

I love how, honestly, with these changes... it looks like Warrior is actually getting a nerf. Defence honestly looks like a worse traitline for open world play then it currently is. 

I'm truly confused as to how you came to that conclusion. The new Defense line is better in literally almost every way... 

[ZolracAtrox.2908]

Ah, yes. Another patch nerfing Scrapper in order to balance it in WvW; killing it more and more in PvP/PvE where is clearly underperfomed.

And another forum where 95% of players are saying to the devs; how bad the idea is, but it gonna happens anyway.

Edited September 20, 2022 by ZolracAtrox.2908

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

Maybe scrapper really is too much of a presence in wvw zerg fights. At first, I didn't see why anet would make such a change, but maybe they feel like scrapper is muting too many other classes. With the upcoming changes, perhaps zerg fights will improve in quality.

[Sovatski.5604]

Please Don't implement any PVE balances/ Nerfs, the gameplay is stupid hard to solo as is (minor exceptions excluded). And that's using meta builds (for any given class) and utilizing all skills/ dodging (not just spamming "1", like a lemur).  

 

I'm not talking about soloing a bounties/ world boss/ fractals/ raids/ etc (of course those should need groups, I'm not ridiculous), I'm talking about free roaming. Like, in the open world. With generic (low rank? Not sure the term here) creatures/ enemies. Its not fun trying to avoid most everything for fear of dying for the 300th time. I think even Lord Farren killed me once, just to see what it was like (ok, that part is a joke. But you get the idea).

 

Until fairly recently,  I never played this game by myself after having died so much to almost everything (I got the game and expansions because a close friend is super into gw2, and the suffering is lessened playing with him. But he's rarely available these days). Only played with him, or even more rarely people in lfg (that works well enough,  but with a bitter taste from the aforementioned torture, it was pretty low priority to play the game at all). Finally changed classes (maybe a year or two before EOD?)(Started as a Warrior. Never ever again. Ever.), which *somewhat* helped, but still had to avoid a large percentage of encounters.  But some recent changes to the game, I changed classes again and I actually am starting to enjoy the game. Why? Because I don't get absolutely demolished every time i leave a safe area. 

 

And now there are proposed nerfs to pve?!?! Not everyone enjoys long sessions of suffering and torture (not shaming anyone, but its not my thing.). I play games to *have fun* and *relax*, not to get annihilated incessantly or wonder why I bought this or waste money.

 

(If changes or nerfs are needed for WvW/ PvP, fine. Those modes definitely aren't for me, and it has already been demonstrated that those modes can be changed *without* nerfing/ hurting PvE.) (Also, I specifically didn't mention the class I'm actually enjoying,  or the one that somewhat helped, for fear of drawing attention to them/ getting the nerfed worse than a Warrior.)  Please don't take this away. Please.

[schento.4980]

Bro i have bad, really bad news for you. 

 

this looks like skill issue.

[Kuma.1503]

25 minutes ago, Sovatski.5604 said:

Please Don't implement any PVE balances/ Nerfs, the gameplay is stupid hard to solo as is (minor exceptions excluded). And that's using meta builds (for any given class) and utilizing all skills/ dodging (not just spamming "1", like a lemur).  

 

I'm not talking about soloing a bounties/ world boss/ fractals/ raids/ etc (of course those should need groups, I'm not ridiculous), I'm talking about free roaming. Like, in the open world. With generic (low rank? Not sure the term here) creatures/ enemies. Its not fun trying to avoid most everything for fear of dying for the 300th time. I think even Lord Farren killed me once, just to see what it was like (ok, that part is a joke. But you get the idea).

 

Until fairly recently,  I never played this game by myself after having died so much to almost everything (I got the game and expansions because a close friend is super into gw2, and the suffering is lessened playing with him. But he's rarely available these days). Only played with him, or even more rarely people in lfg (that works well enough,  but with a bitter taste from the aforementioned torture, it was pretty low priority to play the game at all). Finally changed classes (maybe a year or two before EOD?)(Started as a Warrior. Never ever again. Ever.), which *somewhat* helped, but still had to avoid a large percentage of encounters.  But some recent changes to the game, I changed classes again and I actually am starting to enjoy the game. Why? Because I don't get absolutely demolished every time i leave a safe area. 

 

And now there are proposed nerfs to pve?!?! Not everyone enjoys long sessions of suffering and torture (not shaming anyone, but its not my thing.). I play games to *have fun* and *relax*, not to get annihilated incessantly or wonder why I bought this or waste money.

 

(If changes or nerfs are needed for WvW/ PvP, fine. Those modes definitely aren't for me, and it has already been demonstrated that those modes can be changed *without* nerfing/ hurting PvE.) (Also, I specifically didn't mention the class I'm actually enjoying,  or the one that somewhat helped, for fear of drawing attention to them/ getting the nerfed worse than a Warrior.)  Please don't take this away. Please.

What build are you using? You can add me in game, and I'll help you with your OW troubles.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Kydar Schattendolch.6879]

11 hours ago, kidbuu.4071 said:

 

The Problem I see, is the comparison to reaper shroud. Actually thief just has an Degeneration of 2% per second, while reaper has 5%. Thief does also not have a dmg reduction. 

 

That means, when Anet says, with the HP pool reduction it will be in line with necro treatment, sooner or later we will also get the 5% degeneration but without dmg reduction. 

 

In that case, the healing output will drop again heavily. So I'm with you  that the healing conversion from consume shadows should be adjustet based on shroud treatment to save healspecters healing potential. There are So many possibilities to do so and I hope, Anet cares ^^.

 

As you mentioned:

1. Increasing conversion amount to 15% or 20% per stack or even

2. Increase the amount of maximum stacks, maybe to reach > 100% conversion. 

 

I would also like to see heal specter more viable in engame content. 

[semak.7481]

On 9/16/2022 at 11:49 PM, Kylden Ar.3724 said:

It's not hard to fix. Here it is, the SUPER SECRET SAUCE:

No longer dodges in stun/immobilize

I woner if you realize that vindicator can dodge while being immobilized but also he is free to move in every direction without punishment while mirage must run forward to make some distance?

Mirage lost so much in their useless attempt to nerf it and they arent giving anything back. Especially this vigor in dueling which was ruined for every mesmer spec, despite being alrdy kitten compared to other classes at damage mitigation department EVEN WITH TWO EVADES back then

Edited September 20, 2022 by semak.7481

[Swagg.9236]

I give unto you my THICKEST lmao

[Sahne.6950]

45 minutes ago, Swagg.9236 said:

I give unto you my THICKEST lmao

pretty disappointing that you didnt write it in bold, tbh.