October 4 Balance Update Preview

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

Just now, Ragnar.4257 said:

And if they told you who they spoke to, would you accept it? Or would you move the goalposts to questioning the validity of that person's opinion? Just seems like you're salty about the change and refuse to accept that it was warranted.

You can observe the play-rates of classes/builds in WvW and PvP to figure this stuff out. Scrapper was pretty much omni-present in large-scale WvW. You don't have to "speak" to anyone to observe this. They do also speak to people in the community, but you're not going to get a list of names who you can go and harrass.

 

"And if they told you who they spoke to, would you accept it? Or would you move the goalposts to questioning the validity of that person's opinion? "
 

It isn't my decision to accept.  It is the community's decision.  If the community makes a decision those ARE the goalposts.  I want their input in it.  I want the community to input "well established facts".  

"You can observe the play-rates of classes/builds in WvW and PvP to figure this stuff out. Scrapper was pretty much omni-present in large-scale WvW. You don't have to "speak" to anyone to observe this."
 

So they are basing balance decisions on just play rates?  I thought you said before that movement was also valuable in WvW and PvP.  So it seems there are more considerations than just play rates.  Seems like power, buff, debuff, support, movement, stealth etc.  Those seem to be important factors too.  Those should be used in the calculations and thoughts behind balance, no?

[Ragnar.4257]

8 minutes ago, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

 

"And if they told you who they spoke to, would you accept it? Or would you move the goalposts to questioning the validity of that person's opinion? "
 

It isn't my decision to accept.  It is the community's decision.  If the community makes a decision those ARE the goalposts.  I want their input in it.  I want the community to input "well established facts".  

"You can observe the play-rates of classes/builds in WvW and PvP to figure this stuff out. Scrapper was pretty much omni-present in large-scale WvW. You don't have to "speak" to anyone to observe this."
 

So they are basing balance decisions on just play rates?  I thought you said before that movement was also valuable in WvW and PvP.  So it seems there are more considerations than just play rates.  Seems like power, buff, debuff, support, movement, stealth etc.  Those seem to be important factors too.  Those should be used in the calculations and thoughts behind balance, no?

Play-rates are informative because people play things that are strong. This is obviously the case, since classes/builds go up and down in popularity based on their strength. And no, I didn't say they make balance decisions exclusively on play-rates, I said it was a factor that can be considered. Don't strawman like that.

So, who is "the community"? It isn't one person you can go to and ask a question of. You can't just ask a simple yes/no question to "the community". The opinion of "the community" has to be inferred by aggregating the feedback provided across forums, reddit, ingame chat, streams, and also by looking at play-rates in both high-end tournaments and general play. There isn't a single place you can be pointed at to see this. You just have to be plugged into these communities and these discussions, which apparently you aren't, since you were unaware of the general consensus that scrapper is very strong support in WvW.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

Just now, Ragnar.4257 said:

Play-rates are informative because people play things that are strong. This is obviously the case, since classes/builds go up and down in popularity based on their strength. And no, I didn't say they make balance decisions exclusively on play-rates, I said it was a factor that can be considered.

So, who is "the community"? It isn't one person you can go to and ask a question of. You can't just ask a simple yes/no question to "the community". The opinion of "the community" has to be inferred by aggregating the feedback provided across forums, reddit, ingame chat, streams, and also by looking at play-rates in both high-end tournaments and general play. There isn't a single place you can be pointed at to see this. You just have to be plugged into these communities and these discussions, which apparently you aren't, since you were unaware of the general consensus that scrapper is very strong support in WvW.

 

"The opinion of "the community" has to be inferred by aggregating the feedback provided across forums, reddit, ingame chat, streams, and also by looking at play-rates in both high-end tournaments and general play."

 

Please let me know how they are aggregating this feedback.  The "secret sauce" argument of balance no longer works.  The secret sauce style of balancing is precisely how the mechanist become so overbuffed it became a joke.  They had an entire discord conversation with experts before the June patch and didn't take it in.  As you point out, the issue is fundamentally understand HOW they are taking in these "well established facts".   If these "well established facts" are going to be the basis of their balance philosophy, might be a good idea to explain to the community how they get these "well established facts".

 

"So, who is "the community"? It isn't one person you can go to and ask a question of. You can't just ask a simple yes/no question to "the community". The opinion of "the community"

 

My friend we live in the 21st century.  You consult with the community quite easily nowadays, we aren't writing long distance letters through snail mail.  I actually don't agree with your question, I want to know what the community is to Arena Net as well.  Is it a small group of people?  I want the people who play the game involved.  I want the people who play the game mode involved.  I want as many people as possible involved.  If you do that, then you don't have a "mechanist" buff issue like last time.

 

"Play-rates are informative because people play things that are strong. This is obviously the case, since classes/builds go up and down in popularity based on their strength."

 

No doubt, they determine what is "strong" and what is "weak".  But you need to dive deeper than "overpowered" and "underpowered".  You need to have a design philosophy as you just pointed out in your earlier post.  Movement is crucial in WvW and PvP.  So when you change a class or skill, then it should be clear we want this level of movement in WvW and PvP.  We think this skill has this level of movement.  We want to balance it so others have a similar level of movement.  And movement is just one factor.  What is a support class?  What kinds of skills do they have?  What kind of support skills do I want other classes to have?  What kind of level of support do I want in WvW?  Do I want boon balls?  What kind of support gameplay do I want to encourage or promote in WvW and PvP?  All fundamental design philosophy questions that are more important than just tweaking numbers

 

[jazzdoc.1650]

Two things:

 

It kinds seems like torment is in a weird spot where it's just not fitting in too well.  Why not combine Torment and Confusion into one debuff?  The major damage source could still be the target using their skills, and the minor damage source would be from the enemy moving.  Of course you might have to consider removing torment from auto attack sources or tweak the damage some...but it could be a promising compromise.

 

Not too long ago, I'm pretty sure you removed a few of the skills that dropped buffs/heals since it's hard enough to expect people to not stand in big red circles...none the less seek out small items on the ground to make the skill work right.  Is there a reason why  Shards of Faith and the now reworked Dragonhunter trait still employing this kind of "drop" feature? 

 

Thanks for all the hard work y'all!

Edited September 17, 2022 by jazzdoc.1650

[Styopa.2538]

11 hours ago, ImBach.9013 said:

this was meant to be a wvw / pvp patch they literally said it but people missed it or something lmao

Maybe because every other note in the comments said "in wvw and PvP only" BUT NOT THIS ONE?

They "missed it"...because there was no such comment.  I hoped it was a typo, but I think it's pretty unlikely that make a MECHANICAL change of such magnitude different in PvP than PvE.  Is there any other instance where they literally changed how a skill works from one mode to another?

[Signpost.6381]

On 9/14/2022 at 12:22 PM, Double Tap said:

Scrapper wells are now stationary ground-targeted skills with a range of 900.

I couldn't think of a worse change. We're going to see early HoT levels of scrappers (that is to say none).
 

Scrappers are not heavily utilized in PvE and are certainly not overpowered when compared to Firebrand support which has been dominating groups for years.
In WvW it is a incredibly unique and fun to dynamically block/attack/push/recover. Do you want people to stand still to do any of these things? Why? Shouldn't movement/flanking be encouraged? 

PvP.... who actually still plays this outside of the 20 people win trading?
Ok, ok, in all seriousness though if you're screwing over the other 2 game modes for changes that could make sense in PvP I have no respect for them. I'll admit I don't play PvP enough to make comments on this change there.

 

Other changes in this patch are definitely more of what I (and many others I think) want to see. Please do not kill scrapper.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

@doubletap - please catch up on the specter feedback/thief forums my fellow thief! glad to have you on board. Thief always felt lacking or untouched because most of the balance team didnt play!

[Flumek.9043]

Does necro exist ?

[alemfi.5107]

• Scrapper wells are now stationary ground-targeted skills with a range of 900.

 

Do NOT implement this change. Are you kidding me? Changing a specialization shining mechanic after all these years? Literally just killed all my motivation to come back to the game. 

[Prezombie.7263]

So many better ways to nerf gyros... Have the range shrink with each tick, have them end after procing after enough times (projectile block is just crazy op in wvw), or maybe give some other classes mobile PBAOES so others have the option to do the one thing support scrapper does well? I'd love a reaper or chrono trait that makes wells into a moving aoe centered on you!

[kidbuu.4071]

 

 

Specter

Specter is currently one of the most powerful specializations in PvP. The build has a lot of strengths, but the thing that stands out is the sheer amount of shroud health available, especially in combination with additional sources of vitality. We're reducing the shroud health by a significant amount, with the goal of making specters a bit easier to kill.

We do see specter's reduced initiative pool as one of the tradeoffs we want to revisit eventually, but given its current power level we didn't want to do so in this update. We'll be keeping an eye on the strength of specter going forward and will be looking for an opportunity to restore the lost initiative once it's less dominant.

• Reduced Shadow Shroud health scaling from 1.5 to 0.69.

Skills

Well of Bounty is another skill we wanted to make into a more reliable source of group stability, and to do so we've adjusted how it applies boons. Instead of picking from boons that the target doesn't already have, the skill will consistently apply the same boons on specific pulses, starting with stability on pulse 1.

• Well of Bounty: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in WvW, and from 20 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP. This skill now applies the following boons:
  • Pulse 1: Stability
  • Pulse 2: Might
  • Pulse 3: Fury
  • Pulse 4: Vigor
  • Pulse 5: Resistance

Heal Specter- 

 

Consume shadows was very good once you got the timing sorted for each encounter. You basically played it pretty much the same as other specter variants but Sw 2 was your ini dump and then you'd enter Shroud while waiting for Ini to regen. Changed to blasting pistol 5 with Shroud 2 after the Shadow Arts changes.

 

But with regen gone too with the Well of Bounty change and Protection uptime being worse, there isn't really a spot for heal Specter anywhere now imo even if we get a decent amount of Might. It is already a pain to play and super cumbersome so why bother when there is Druid, Tempest or Mech.

 

Main issues with heal Specter are:

 

its only reliable Regen is a long-cast single target skill and thus hard to upkeep on an entire subgroup (and impossible on self)

 

Shadow Arts' "whenever you stealth an ally" effects break their flow of combat on occasion and stealth being virtually useless in group PvE itself

 

The healing power scaling is so low that it's barely worth investing in

 

(And I'd love a trait that makes the shroud's ally heals AoE around your tethered friend)

 

I think there's room for "negotiation" on the 1.5 → 0.69 scaling particularly since that 0.69 is carbon-copied from necromancer  

ignoring the fact necro has a much larger health pool and Soul Battery to increase the conversion to 0.89

 

viper HP: 14,615

viper shroud old: 21,923

viper shroud new: 10,084

 

ritualist-carrion HP: 24,525

shroud old: 36,788

shroud new: 16,922.25

math by Iskarel a

 

With that said the major concern is that by making these changes we lose a lot of significant benefits playing a support role. Some of the changes are beneficial like the additional stability. We lose out on the regeneration and subsequently we have now lost a significant portion of our Heal potential oops this trajectory will make it challenging to see, he'll specter in the end game content. My thought is this if it's the decision and idea of the company to make this specialization support rule or even healing support role.  Let it be known that if the company has a different thought when it comes to this specific class and this specialization then let that be presented to the larger community so that we can adjust accordingly if this specialization was never meant to be a heall role for PVP/WVW or PVE let it be known, if it was then let's make decisions that presented it  that way. It's been said several times since the expansion that the company is looking at that diversify roles it was even expressed in a live stream to bring more options to the table.

Edited September 17, 2022 by kidbuu.4071

[MikSki.9481]

On 9/14/2022 at 5:22 PM, Double Tap said:

• Armored Attack: This trait has been removed and replaced with Resilient Roll.
• Resilient Roll: Gain resistance at the end of your dodge roll.

RIP Hizen's spellbreaker build, I see this as a totally unnecessary change.
 

 

On 9/14/2022 at 5:22 PM, Double Tap said:

Berserk mode now activates instantly

No more interrupting berserk mode, very nice QOL change.
 

 

On 9/14/2022 at 5:22 PM, Double Tap said:

Fatal Frenzy: This trait no longer reduces toughness.

Even though it's a nice change, I kind of liked the role play aspect of being more vulnerable while in berserk, heck, it's even in the elite spec description. Warrior has a lot of health to compensate this 300 toughness loss. It will make it a bit better in open world though.
 

 

On 9/14/2022 at 5:22 PM, Double Tap said:

Stalwart Strength: Disabling an enemy grants stability. While you have stability, your strike damage is increased.

Very nice change, absolutely love it!
 

 

On 9/14/2022 at 5:22 PM, Double Tap said:

Cleansing Ire: This trait now removes one condition, plus an additional condition per bar of adrenaline spent. Burst skills still must hit an enemy to remove conditions.

Warrior already had a lot of condi cleanse on its kit, but now this is a very strong option, especially considering Shake It Off ammo got reduced ammo.

 

On 9/14/2022 at 5:22 PM, Double Tap said:

Tactical Reload: This skill now only recharges bladesworn skills instead of all warrior ammunition skills.

I mean I understand you don't want to recharge shouts in PvP and WvW as it's a bit too strong, but this now kills Heal Bladesworn in PvE and having an extra Axe3 or Pistol5 in open world was always nice. The big question though is, what about EMP from waystation? It's not a warrior skill but it was recovering ammo when Tactical Reload was used; is it still going to be the case?

To conclude, bladesworn shouldn't be as overpowered as it is in PvP and WvW, some nice changes in PvE too, but I'm waiting for the day Power Berserker gets back to it's glory (above 37k).

[UNOwen.7132]

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

And if they told you who they spoke to, would you accept it? Or would you move the goalposts to questioning the validity of that person's opinion? Just seems like you're salty about the change and refuse to accept that it was warranted.

You can observe the play-rates of classes/builds in WvW and PvP to figure this stuff out. Scrapper was pretty much omni-present in large-scale WvW, and has been for many years. You don't have to "speak" to anyone to observe this. They do also speak to people in the community, but you're not going to get a list of names who you can go and harrass.

I dont know if he "refuses to accept" that the change is warranted, as much as he questions if it is. And he is correct do so, because its not warranted. A nerf to scrapper is warranted. A change that screws over all gamemodes and happens to make scrapper unviable in WvW as well is not. They can lower the numbers. They do not have to destroy the flow of the elite spec in the same patch where they make changes to elite specs so that they play better, while also making gyros inherently self-contradictory.

 

And yeah no, there is 0 chance they spoke to any scrapper main about this. Any scrapper main could've told them how kitten of an idea this change is, and given them a much better suggestion. Its clear they dont talk to players of most of the classes they balance.  A lot of Engineers outstanding issues (pistol is bugged still), Thieves outstanding issues (preparedness) or bladesworns outstanding issues (Gunsaber is worthless) have been communicated repeatedly for months if not years. Still not addressed.

[chronometria.3708]

Adding my voice to the pile of folks requesting reaper changes - if every encounter is going to be single target, then doing lots of area attacks doesnt really cut it for a selfish dps, especially if the survivability is cut down.

Maybe give it party tanking boons and protective stuff, so it offers support to make it different to quickness and alacrity givers. Having a reaper dps doing that could be very handy to take pressure of healers or to help weaker non healer pug groups if it was a reliable source of protection or resistance.

Edited September 17, 2022 by chronometria.3708

[kidbuu.4071]

From the Snowcrow  community .....

 

Healing

Single target boon generation and healing are not useful in the current meta, especially in the amounts generated by Specter. The two support options on Specter that players actually build around are Consume Shadows and Traversing Dusk, both of which affect five players. 

 

Ally-targeted Siphon does not trigger steal traits—specifically Thrill of the Crime, and Bountiful Theft—so Specters must choose between granting barrier to a target or granting boons to their group. This mutual exclusivity between support options is not desirable.

 

Heal Specter remains unviable due to the lack of meaningful boons and utility when compared to other healing options in the game. Other meta healers in the game provide some combination of:

• Healing and/or Barrier

• Revival

• Condition cleansing

• Might

• Quickness or Alacrity

• Aegis

• Stability

• Protection and/or Resolution

• Area pulls for grouping non-boss targets

• Knockbacks and/or immobilize for dealing with specific encounter mechanics

 

Heal Specter has reliable access to healing, barrier, revival, alacrity, and can easily slot in immobilize. 

 

Specter’s revival option, Shadestep, is considerably limited by the need to select the player via the UI prior to casting Siphon. This is cumbersome and does not work well within the design of Guild Wars 2. Other professions are able to ground-target their revival abilities.
 

Thief has limited access to group condition cleansing, and most of those cleanses require significant build investment. Specter’s traited condition cleansing option Hungering Darkness is mutually exclusive with its revival option Shadestep. Hungering Darkness and Shadow Shroud’s Grasping Darkness only apply their condition cleanses to tethered targets, not to the full group. Shadow’s Embrace in the Shadow Arts traitline requires access to Shortbow and Off-hand Pistol, and/or the utilities Shadow Refuge and Blinding Powder; this conflicts with Alacrity generating builds which require at least two of the three utility slots to be wells. Signet of Agility is the only small investment five target condition cleanse that Thief has access to.

Specter does not currently bring enough Might to work well in the majority of group compositions. Thrill of the Crime is able to maintain around five stacks of Might as long as the Specter never uses the ally targeted version of Siphon. To maintain the remaining twenty stacks of might, a Specter would have to spend sixty initiative every twenty seconds on the skill Shadow Sap. Beyond the impossible amount of Initiative required, Shadow Sap also requires the Specter to select each ally individually via the UI, something that is cumbersome with Guild Wars 2’s combat design.

 

The area pull that Specter has access to is Shadowfall; it has a very long cooldown, small radius, and its pull is incremental; making it significantly weaker than pulls that other professions have access to.

 

However, this emphasizes that the elite specialization weapon—scepter—lacks the tools necessary for a support build.

Full paragraph on scepter not being good? 

Or combined with s/p comments on healing weapon sets as a whole

Comments on single target nature being bad

Comments comparing measured shot to infiltrator’s strike (spammable)

 

Sword/Pistol can be used with heal Specter as Sword has access to Infiltrator's Strike—a spammable shadowstep that can take advantage of the Traversing Dusk and/or Shadow Savior traits—as well as the strong utility provided by off-hand Pistol.

[crewthief.8649]

1 hour ago, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

If their vision is so clear why did Scrapper gyros get moved to targeted AOE?
 

"We see scrapper as overperforming relative to where a support build should be, and so we've brought down its power in a few areas rather than raising other support builds to that overperforming level."
 

"Scrapper wells are now stationary ground-targeted skills with a range of 900."
 

Why does changing something to ground-targeted mean reducing power?  Does a ground-targeting skill have some kind of ranking at Arena Net?  How does Arena Net determine if something is "overperforming"?  What kind of level of support is Arena Net looking for in WvW?  How does Arena Net define a support build?  What kind of counterbalance level does Arena Net want against support builds? They say the scrapper is overperforming in support. Where are they getting these ideas and thoughts? Did they consult with WvW players? Did they consult with scrapper players?

The answers to your questions are self-evident. I don’t have an opinion either way, but it isn’t difficult to understand how a well that follows you around (in a mode like WvW) as a PBAoE is clearly superior to a targeted AoE, especially as it relates to support-based wells.

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by crewthief.8649

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

9 minutes ago, crewthief.8649 said:

The answers to your questions are self-evident. I don’t have an opinion either way, but it isn’t difficult to understand how a well that follows you around (in a mode like WvW) as a PBAoE is clearly superior to a targeted AoE, especially as it relates to support-based wells.

 

 

Of course!  Then movement is a fundamental important part of WvW and PvP.  Skills that allow movement or restrict movement are important.  Is it a good to idea to imply that level of restriction of movement?  What kind of level of movement is acceptable in WvW and PvP?  What kind of support movement do I want in WvW and PvP?  Do I want a "boon ball" movement?  Do I want to bring it down to a reasonable level?  What is a reasonable level?  Design questions my friend.

[crewthief.8649]

14 minutes ago, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

 

Of course!  Then movement is a fundamental important part of WvW and PvP.  Skills that allow movement or restrict movement are important.  Is it a good to idea to imply that level of restriction of movement?  What kind of level of movement is acceptable in WvW and PvP?  What kind of support movement do I want in WvW and PvP?  Do I want a "boon ball" movement?  Do I want to bring it down to a reasonable level?  What is a reasonable level?  Design questions my friend.

I’m a Warrior main, they’ve made changes to our elite specs for years that left me shaking my head. Anet is generally not great at communicating (welcome to GW2!), you are not going to get a comprehensive, data-centric breakdown of their reasoning for this change, so, it is up to you (us) to try and make sense of it.

Anecdotally, I as well as many, many others have observed that Scrapper has been over-performing in WvW for years. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by crewthief.8649

[Kuma.1503]

Another thing to note about Scrapper. 

Losing quickness makes sense in WvW. It plays a defensive/utility role in WvW zergs, and It was on the stronger side as a roamer. Not as top tier as thief or ranger, but up there. The loss of power is acceptable. 

In PvP, Scrapper has not been great for a long time. Ever since the impact savant nerf a year or so back it's fallen out of the meta. It saw a minor resurgence with the rifle changes .People saw fast shooting rifle and the placebo effect hit hard even though the DPS wasn't buffed in PvP, but with this nerf hitting, Scrapper goes right back into the gutter, presumably for another year or so. 

Scrapper just can't catch a break. It's doomed to be outclassed or outright terrible in PvP and PvE, and every time this is brought up there's always that one guy that says "But WvW though"!

At least people can't hold that over its head anymore?

Edited September 17, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

1 minute ago, crewthief.8649 said:

you are not going to get a comprehensive, data-centric breakdown of their reasoning for this change, so, it is up to you (us) to try and make sense of it.

 

No no no.  That is precisely the thought process that got us into this mess.  Do you think people should try to "make sense" of mechanists?  I would highly recommend not adopting that form of balancing any more.

 

I think data-centric is precisely the issue  funny enough.  They are looking at numbers but not looking at why.  Any data scientist will tell you that data is good, but understanding WHY is much more important.  Being able to connect the dots.  You don't need data driven balance, you need design driven balance.  The data and numbers will flow from there.  Once you have a solid design philosophy regarding things like movement, buff, debuff, stealth, support, boons etc., then everything else can be adjusted based on those decisions and designs. 

"Anecdotally, I as well as many, many others have observed that Scrapper has been over-performing in WvW for years. "
Great lets get as many opinions as we can!  Let's define over-performing.  Let's understand why it is over-performing and then designed on that.  Totally wiping out movement, as you pointed at earlier in your post that movement is crucial, maybe not a good idea.  Again once you understand why then everything else flows from there.

[SoulBlaze.3059]

Why are they continuing to make rev worse and worse for pvp with each patch, its like the dev team has no clue what to do with the class so they say kitten it.

[mythos.4283]

On 9/14/2022 at 10:22 AM, Double Tap said:

Scrapper wells are now stationary ground-targeted skills with a range of 900.

As a mainly PvE but sometimes WvW player who likes playing Scrapper in both, but also needs to use action camera for accessibility reasons (limiting usage as much as possible for my right hand), this is really disappointing even though I get the reasoning.  I feel like I may have to have to stop playing Scrapper if this change goes through, simply because ground targeting with action cam kind of sucks, particularly like I saw someone else say, ground targeting under your own feet as opposed to targeting out ahead of you.  I tend to steer clear of classes that require a lot of ground targeting like that already, but it's a bummer because I love the flavor of Scrapper.  Also definitely feels bad that this change is mostly for WvW balance, but it's going to affect my PvE build as well.

[mythos.4283]

Sorry for double post, didn't look like it actually sent.

Edited September 17, 2022 by mythos.4283
double post.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

There is so much to do in pvp no matter what they do now or in a month from now. There will need to be more work done to other classes and specs two months from now or even three months down the line or even if you guys at anet want a healthy pvp scene, perpetually like it has been this summer/beginning of fall so please don't slow down on this great progress that is being made so far. Please keep up the great work!

Edited September 17, 2022 by Eddbopkins.2630

[Silerna.6194]

Wtf is with these scrapper changes? The gyro changes are HORRIBLE! I know the staff really hates warriors and now you gonna hate engineer scrappers too? This gyro change will render scrappers absolutely useless and people will stop playing it in any mode. I really loved helping people with my scrapper in wvw, or using gyro’s to kite my foes in pve. Both are now history.

Good job as always for ruining a good elite spec.👎what will you destroy next?

Edited September 17, 2022 by Silerna.6194