"Stationary Gyros take more skill!"

[Kuma.1503]

One sentiment I'm seeing a lot in relation to the gyro change is that current gyros take no skill to use. 

With the change to ground target, Scrappers will have to "use their brain and use the gyros strategically instead of brainlessly running around with them".

Now I find this curious. 

If we look at the engineer's toolkit, we have a lot of ground targeted AoE's as is. Grenade Kit, Bomb kit, mortar kit and super elixir. The 5 skill on hammer, function Gyro. If this change goes through Engineers will be dropping AoE circles left and right like a discount scourge. I can guarantee that if this playstyle is ever buffed to anything resembling relevance in competetive modes, people will change their tune up REAL quick. From "Ground AoE's take skill" to "You just vommit AoE damage, healing, and cleanses everywhere while running around with superspeed! It's degenerate and should be nerfed ASAP".

How do I know this?

Because that's exactly what people said when Grenades became popular in competetive play. "Running around spamming grenades with superspeed takes no skill". Even though they're  just ground targeted AoE skills. The backlash to this build was so loud that it was eventually nerfed into the ground. 

Or when Mortar kit became popular in competitive modes. There were cries to nerf it because the AoE spam was too oppressive. 

Imagine that, but with Gyros on top. Gyros that are eventually rebuffed to compensate for the fact that they are now stationary. 

For people who want stationary gyros because they're salty towards scrappers and think they deserve the suffering they get. A word of caution.

When you wish on the monkey paw, the end result might just come back to bite you.  

Edited September 19, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Euthymias.7984]

The only area where the change may take some "skill" is WvW, since you have to weigh when and where to set down and when to hold your fields for maximum value instead of constantly having them around while moving.

I still think its unfair to force these changes on everyone else outside of WvW though, because this wasn't an issue or a necessary change beyond that place (no real difference in expressing skill) since its mostly just another annoyance at worst, but I'd sooner just hang up the hammer and change specs than expect them to back away from this after scrapper's ruled WvW for so long.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Euthymias.7984

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Euthymias.7984 said:

I still think its unfair to force these changes on everyone else outside of WvW though

If we get to suffer, you get to suffer, thats my motto.

[Kougiou.5634]

Having a well on yourself, makes you place yourself at potential harm that can require some brain imo.

Let's say you want to give protection to your team mates. Instead of staying at a safe place and spam mortar kit 1 to do damage, you go in to give them protection with tool belt 1. You are now in the heat of battle , you can get hit for doing that..
Like I said on an other post, you are the well, you are the tool! 

[Stalima.5490]

The change is skill neutral, after all self gyros require self-positioning to execute which is far more dangerous and thus skill dependant than placing a gyro from complete safety 900 away.

 

If anything this change would only reduce the skill requirement as you no longer need to weigh up nearly as much danger when placing them, similar to how the grenade kit is a very low skill ability to take also, less so than even the flamethrower was.

[cgMatt.5162]

Imagine Gyroscopic Acceleration with stationary Wells. You get one of the best mobiliy buffs in the game (superspeed) but the mechanic is to stand still in the Wells to benefit from the effects. Big oversight imo.

[Stalima.5490]

4 hours ago, cgMatt.5162 said:

Imagine Gyroscopic Acceleration with stationary Wells. You get one of the best mobiliy buffs in the game (superspeed) but the mechanic is to stand still in the Wells to benefit from the effects. Big oversight imo.

10/10 mechanics right there.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

The gyro where designed to stick with you which is why in the end, something like blast gyro that has like 2-3 sec before exploding could still be a threat by having the Scrapper following you. Something like Shredder gyro that deals low damage/hit could still be a good skill to chip away a good chunk of HP by following the Scrapper.

 

Scrapper well effect are relatively weak as far as effect/pulse goes but you get to use the full effect unlike other wells.  

[Kougiou.5634]

15 hours ago, cgMatt.5162 said:

Imagine Gyroscopic Acceleration with stationary Wells. You get one of the best mobiliy buffs in the game (superspeed) but the mechanic is to stand still in the Wells to benefit from the effects. Big oversight imo.

This right there ! It's amazing how bad design this is ! Unless , Anet did this on purpose just so we complain and then revert the change , only to say : see? we listen to you.... 

[Dadnir.5038]

On 9/19/2022 at 6:49 AM, Kuma.1503 said:

One sentiment I'm seeing a lot in relation to the gyro change is that current gyros take no skill to use. 

Nope.

You shouldn't put to much thought into the various claim that plague the various GW2 forums, the truth is that they just say that because engineer is the flavor-of-the-month profession. Every time a profession have an e-spec that become very popular for a few month you'll see people claiming that it requiert no skills and then you'll see these claim bleed to every specs of the profession.

The longer the profession stay in the limelight the more ridiculous the claims will be (who know, maybe in a few month you'll have people say that engineer have been meta and OP since 2012. That's how ridiculous the claim about the necromancer had reached before mechanist took the hate aggro) 

[Stalima.5490]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You shouldn't put to much thought into the various claim that plague the various GW2 forums, the truth is that they just say that because engineer is the flavor-of-the-month profession. Every time a profession have an e-spec that become very popular for a few month you'll see people claiming that it requiert no skills and then you'll see these claim bleed to every specs of the profession.

I'm pretty sure it's likely because the only people who actually understand engineers are the engineer players, everyone else just thinks your spamming 1 button and getting results.

 

For example, I was using a condi flamethrower build in pvp not too long ago, utilising the flameblast, air blast, napalm and smoke vent heavily as well as several utility and toolbelt skills, then the next thing I see is people spamming 111111 in chat...

Edited September 20, 2022 by Stalima.5490

[Custodio.6134]

22 hours ago, cgMatt.5162 said:

Imagine Gyroscopic Acceleration with stationary Wells. You get one of the best mobiliy buffs in the game (superspeed) but the mechanic is to stand still in the Wells to benefit from the effects. Big oversight imo.

i think you missed the change to how superspeed will be applied. i would aggree to some extent, if gyroscopic acceleration would stay unchanged (as it is now, superspeed applied on final pulse). In that case, yes. 

however, that is also subject to change. In the same moment gyros become stationary, they also apply superspeed on the FIRST pulse (in other words, almost instantly). 

[cgMatt.5162]

1 hour ago, Custodio.6134 said:

i think you missed the change to how superspeed will be applied. i would aggree to some extent, if gyroscopic acceleration would stay unchanged (as it is now, superspeed applied on final pulse). In that case, yes. 

however, that is also subject to change. In the same moment gyros become stationary, they also apply superspeed on the FIRST pulse (in other words, almost instantly). 

I am aware, but it would not matter if the superspeed was applied at the beginning, end of the cast, or if it would apply in the well or around the scrapper currently. We would still have to stand in it to get all benefits of the well or it would effectively tick once or twice per pulse. 

Either way stationary Wells and superspeed are two contradictory concepts.

[Milar.4930]

"Stationary wells is less fun!"

 

An aspect of this game Anet devs seems to have lost sight of  o.O 

 

 

 

[MaLong.2079]

On 9/19/2022 at 10:31 AM, cgMatt.5162 said:

Imagine Gyroscopic Acceleration with stationary Wells. You get one of the best mobiliy buffs in the game (superspeed) but the mechanic is to stand still in the Wells to benefit from the effects. Big oversight imo.

ANET: *READS THAT*

ANET: *PONDERS*

ALSO ANET: "SOLVED - You don't have to stand still. You can use superspeed to run in circles inside the well's aoe." 😁

But seriously, I guess superspeed will be applied in full instantly.

Edited September 20, 2022 by MaLong.2079

[Ghos.1326]

On 9/19/2022 at 12:49 AM, Kuma.1503 said:

One sentiment I'm seeing a lot in relation to the gyro change is that current gyros take no skill to use. 

With the change to ground target, Scrappers will have to "use their brain and use the gyros strategically instead of brainlessly running around with them".

Now I find this curious. 

If we look at the engineer's toolkit, we have a lot of ground targeted AoE's as is. Grenade Kit, Bomb kit, mortar kit and super elixir. The 5 skill on hammer, function Gyro. If this change goes through Engineers will be dropping AoE circles left and right like a discount scourge. I can guarantee that if this playstyle is ever buffed to anything resembling relevance in competetive modes, people will change their tune up REAL quick. From "Ground AoE's take skill" to "You just vommit AoE damage, healing, and cleanses everywhere while running around with superspeed! It's degenerate and should be nerfed ASAP".

How do I know this?

Because that's exactly what people said when Grenades became popular in competetive play. "Running around spamming grenades with superspeed takes no skill". Even though they're  just ground targeted AoE skills. The backlash to this build was so loud that it was eventually nerfed into the ground. 

Or when Mortar kit became popular in competitive modes. There were cries to nerf it because the AoE spam was too oppressive. 

Imagine that, but with Gyros on top. Gyros that are eventually rebuffed to compensate for the fact that they are now stationary. 

For people who want stationary gyros because they're salty towards scrappers and think they deserve the suffering they get. A word of caution.

When you wish on the monkey paw, the end result might just come back to bite you.  

Yep, you pretty much summed it up. Give it some time, they'll come crying with their little buzzwords.

Unfortunately, Anet seems to pander to these people. It's like I said before, I value the input of good players but that doesn't mean that they can't have horrible ideas or be extremely biased for/against professions.

In a sense, I feel bad for Anet because they're being yanked in many horribly wrong directions, but then don't because they chose to be yanked in these directions instead of listening to truly sound feedback. Then the question could arise, I suppose: what constitutes as sound feedback?

In which I would answer this: suggestions for changes that do not bloat/starve or overload/underload any one particular skill/trait/utility/etc in proportion to other information for said skill/trait/utility/etc, including but not limited to cooldown time, cast time, added effects like stun or daze, boon/condition generation and/or removal or conversion, nature of how many times the attack procs damaging frames, so on and so on.

 

EDIT: sorry to add on and be annoying brother/sister, but a good example here would be turrets. Stationary summons that were meant for point control and added extra effects, whether that was applying damaging conditions, applying light CC conditions (net turret), extra proccs of smaller direct damage, hard CC (through overcharge with longer cooldowns for said overcharge) like a knockdown or stun, and others.

Because turrets are stationary items, their health for sustainability should be much greater than say a mobile item like a pet. And because some of the extra effects could be potentially way too powerful, lessen those effects either with longer periods between casts from their auto attacks, or numbers nerfs. So what do they do? They made most (besides thumper) turrets EXTREMELY frail, take away the ability to overcharge save for initially laying down the turret, and also lessen the effects (lel). The true definition of one of the most popular buzzwords to these little "balance enthusiasts": gutted.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Ghos.1326

[Never.6014]

I don't think making well targeted makes them any more skill driven overall, just more annoying to use. This change just makes scrapper less fun to play and less unique in identity. I really hope they listen. This is a chance for the new lead guy to show us what' he's like.

[BeardRex.6739]

With all the ground targeted AOE abilities, Scrapper now feels more like a mage than many of the magic users.

[Stalima.5490]

are they at least going to make the other abilities also 900 range, the spare capacitor and poison field?

[felix.2386]

yea, press skills and run to enemy is definitely not interesting and very braindead compared to actually able to place aoes are different places and area control with it

like rez gyro already is, which is very good. placing gyro far away from actual engineer

Edited September 22, 2022 by felix.2386

[felix.2386]

On 9/21/2022 at 1:21 PM, BeardRex.6739 said:

With all the ground targeted AOE abilities, Scrapper now feels more like a mage than many of the magic users.

no matter which game, engi has always been physical mage.

even in core, rifle is staff, nade, bomb all just mage aoes.

turrets are summons

elixirs are enchantments

etc

[Sindust.7059]

On 9/20/2022 at 3:04 PM, Custodio.6134 said:

the same moment gyros become stationary, they also apply superspeed on the FIRST pulse

Sneak gyro:

1. Cast.

2. Get super speed.

3. Stand still with super speed while getting stealth stacked up, and 6s of otherwise useful stealth duration is wasted.

4. Super speed runs out.

5. Start moving.

#Logic #GalaxyBrainDesign

[Kuma.1503]

On 9/22/2022 at 2:16 PM, felix.2386 said:

yea, press skills and run to enemy is definitely not interesting and very braindead compared to actually able to place aoes are different places and area control with it

Mmhm~ 

Allow me to get into character real quick. 

"Me scrapper. Me have good technique. Me call it, grab shoe and beat keyboard. All gyros go off at once. Bulwark gyro give quickness so it dps skill. So many numbers on screen. Happy brain chemicals go Ooooo"

...

 Meanwhile the enemy zerg all collectively stand together in an A pose. Their heads swivel 180 degrees in unison. They lock eyes on the scrapper, jovially swinging his hammer at any unfortunate fool who dares cross his path, he flings himself into the fray with unshakable confidence. His dexterity is unmatched as he flies into a pool of AoEs. His resolve unbroken as his condition bar enters integer underflow. He goes down in a blaze of glory as question marks flood squad chat. 

This... is gaming at its finest. 

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Zaret.1450]

On 9/19/2022 at 6:49 AM, Kuma.1503 said:

One sentiment I'm seeing a lot in relation to the gyro change is that current gyros take no skill to use. 

With the change to ground target, Scrappers will have to "use their brain and use the gyros strategically instead of brainlessly running around with them".

Now I find this curious. 

If we look at the engineer's toolkit, we have a lot of ground targeted AoE's as is. Grenade Kit, Bomb kit, mortar kit and super elixir. The 5 skill on hammer, function Gyro. If this change goes through Engineers will be dropping AoE circles left and right like a discount scourge. I can guarantee that if this playstyle is ever buffed to anything resembling relevance in competetive modes, people will change their tune up REAL quick. From "Ground AoE's take skill" to "You just vommit AoE damage, healing, and cleanses everywhere while running around with superspeed! It's degenerate and should be nerfed ASAP".

How do I know this?

Because that's exactly what people said when Grenades became popular in competetive play. "Running around spamming grenades with superspeed takes no skill". Even though they're  just ground targeted AoE skills. The backlash to this build was so loud that it was eventually nerfed into the ground. 

Or when Mortar kit became popular in competitive modes. There were cries to nerf it because the AoE spam was too oppressive. 

Imagine that, but with Gyros on top. Gyros that are eventually rebuffed to compensate for the fact that they are now stationary. 

For people who want stationary gyros because they're salty towards scrappers and think they deserve the suffering they get. A word of caution.

When you wish on the monkey paw, the end result might just come back to bite you.  

i think theres a mayor diference, at least in wvw, both grenades and mortar are damage skills, being targeted areas means you just drop them and they do dmg on impact in that area, unless your enemy uses a reflect or block proyect they do their job just fine, but the gyro talk was more focused on stealth cleanse and barrier gyros, those suport gyros need time to make use of their full effect, the cleanse one pulses cleanses, and the stealth pulses stealth too, in wvw where people is moving, if you put a cleanse gyro people will just run over it in a second or maybe they cant even run there because you have enemy areas put on top, that means its effects are much minor than when you just had a pulsing area around a player when the entire scuad is suposed to be stacked, as everyone moves together all the pulses are effective, while a static area might as well be non existent in some cases, the stealth gyro is similar, when pleople prepare a blast stealth with static areas it will still be as effective, but on the other hand stealth gyro will be less efective when using it triing to escape or while moving.

And one tging more, the dmg gyro is provably gonna be much better, as it will work like a necro well, this means its a change made to nerf suport scraper and probably buff dps scraper, basicaly making more dificult to use suport gyros effectively and making dps gyro easyer to use.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

3 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

 Meanwhile the enemy zerg all collectively stand together in an A pose. Their heads swivel 180 degrees in unison. They lock eyes on the scrapper, jovially swinging his hammer at any unfortunate fool who dares cross his path, he flings himself into the fray with unshakable confidence. His dexterity is unmatched as he flies into a pool of AoEs. His resolve unbroken as his condition bar enters integer underflow. He goes down in a blaze of glory as question marks flood squad chat. 

This... is gaming at its finest. 

Guilty of that xD.

As I have said in the other thread, 900 range is a lot for our wells. Shredder Gyro is mass-tagging. We can use it after the patch without risking our lives anymore. Just drop it in a corridor or a gate. Same goes for blast-gyro. 

Bulwark Gyro is going to be funny, if they do not balance it with the patch. Let us say we stay on the wall and keep shooting stuff with our Mortar Kit, we put the Shredder Gyro at the gate that is breaking at this very moment and Bulwark Gyro to a team fighting on the other side. Technically, we can do this on a full range of 1,800. Sure it will require some coordination, but not that much.

And there are still the support-gyros with also 900 range + Defense Field. Currently the situation with F-Gyro is like this for me:
1. I cast it on a downed ally
2. I rush to the downed ally
3. I cast Defense Field and Reconstruction Field

After that patch, I can pull this off without moving an inch. I really hope they are 'smart' enough to give Reconstruction Field the same treatment. There is also the new option of combining F-Gyro with Sneak Gyro, while doing something different. 

Honestly. Just give it a try. I do not think it will be as bad as people claim.