We need more group focused content.

[Gehenna.3625]

1 minute ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I believe they have to do it because I think it will make the game better. GW2 has been on a consistent decline since release, which is normal for every game but I believe it can be so much more. I vehemently believe the current state where it is doing just ok is not where it could be because the majority of the content be poured onto living story is a big mistake that causes huge issues with player retention. 

Ok, well, that sounds more reasonable. This game has been out for 10 years and to be honest it's about as old as another MMO I played called SWTOR. SWTOR is doing a lot worse when it comes to new content and there's not much in the way of group content but also not OW or story content. That's why I stopped playing it.

The thing is though that group contend tends to be the more difficult thing to create and it's not for a whole lot of people. There are many people who've never even set foot in a raid or strike. And for a game that's 10 years old, maybe that group content is too expensive an investment to make. 

You already see in EoD that 4 story encounters are used for the strikes and then CM strikes came out for the same instanced encounters. I think that tells us that they are going down a similar path as SWTOR.

1 minute ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I think if it continues the current stage of releasing 1 LS every 3 months and 1 group content maybe every half a year will be serviceable like it has been doing for the past decade. That however will just let the game be in the same old state forever. There need to be a shift in focus to pull the game to where it can be and I believe a focus on rewarding group content is essential. 

I don't know if that essential. From the start this game wasn't about endgame in the traditional sense. The game came out with 8 dungeons and that was it. No raids, no strikes and no fractals either. Enough people wanted something more so fractals were added and ascended gear came into the game. But that was it for the gear progression. Legendary gear has the same stats after all.

Now I'm sure the game will stay around for years to come and another expansion was already announced, but I think you'll agree that EoD wasn't as good an expansion as the previous ones.

And now they're bringing out LS1, which is reusing old assets.

So you see, I think this is as good as it's going to get. I don't think Anet NcSoft are interested in pumping a lot of money into a revival of sorts. Steam has brought in new players that are playing the game for the first time. SWTOR did the same a year ago. So they'll cover for the people leaving.

So in the end, I think that this is actually as good as it gets.

[Warscythes.9307]

20 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Ok, well, that sounds more reasonable. This game has been out for 10 years and to be honest it's about as old as another MMO I played called SWTOR. SWTOR is doing a lot worse when it comes to new content and there's not much in the way of group content but also not OW or story content. That's why I stopped playing it.

The thing is though that group contend tends to be the more difficult thing to create and it's not for a whole lot of people. There are many people who've never even set foot in a raid or strike. And for a game that's 10 years old, maybe that group content is too expensive an investment to make. 

You already see in EoD that 4 story encounters are used for the strikes and then CM strikes came out for the same instanced encounters. I think that tells us that they are going down a similar path as SWTOR.

I don't know if that essential. From the start this game wasn't about endgame in the traditional sense. The game came out with 8 dungeons and that was it. No raids, no strikes and no fractals either. Enough people wanted something more so fractals were added and ascended gear came into the game. But that was it for the gear progression. Legendary gear has the same stats after all.

Now I'm sure the game will stay around for years to come and another expansion was already announced, but I think you'll agree that EoD wasn't as good an expansion as the previous ones.

And now they're bringing out LS1, which is reusing old assets.

So you see, I think this is as good as it's going to get. I don't think Anet NcSoft are interested in pumping a lot of money into a revival of sorts. Steam has brought in new players that are playing the game for the first time. SWTOR did the same a year ago. So they'll cover for the people leaving.

So in the end, I think that this is actually as good as it gets.

I don't actually believe this is as good as it gets because I believe the MMO space has little competitors at the moment that if GW2 play its card right then it can go back to sit with the top games.

 

Yes the game was not about endgame in the traditional sense with gear grinds and whatnot. But it doesn't mean anything about not having endgame content in general. GW1 was the same with no traditional endgame. It had even less gear grinds but there is a slew of endgame content with vanquish, dungeons and whatnot.

 

Endgame content to me isn't just group hardcore content. It is simply fun rewarding content that is replayable. This has traditionally be difficult to solve in MMO as players will always finish content faster than developers. So what is the traditional solution? Gear grinds to incentivize people to play. GW2 can't have this, so it tried at first with living world and they failed because they do not have the resource to create good content fast enough. So what exactly can they do? I believe this is the core issue is that they still do not have a good grasp on what the GW2 endgame should be. Just OW is not cutting it. I don't think do just raids will be it as well. They need content that people will be willing to play over and over because is fun, not like RIBA or drizzlewood or dragonstorm where is literally impossible to fail and incredibly boring but people still do it because is lucrative despite you can practically afk it.

 

I think content like Soo Won is a good step. It is an OW even with some difficulty and decent rewards. The major problem is that it takes too long. I think marionette has potential, the issue is just that the reward is too low. I think stuff like this mixed with group content is what they should try to do. Reusing existing asset like what they are doing with strikes as well. There is no doubt one of GW2's greatest strength is the open world design. The problem is that often times is not enjoyable to replay it. I feel they should mix it together and try something like GW1 vanquishing. If done right, this should use comparatively less effort due to the ability to reuse asset as well as providing "endgame" content for all players. It doesn't have to be this, but I believe this is the sort of direction the game should try to do, by combining its strength of open world with the combat system and create good content.

 

tl;dr: Make fun rewarding replayable content, group or solo

Edited September 27, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

14 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

tl;dr: Make fun rewarding replayable content, group or solo

I'd actually go one step further to "Make fun rewarding replayable content, group AND solo".

 

This is a thing that seems to being overlooked by the anti-solo crowd.  We've seen group content tried repeatedly and then abandoned.  Dungeons, fractals, raids, DRMs, and now we're into strikes.

 

If this content was also soloable (for different rewards), then it might actually be popular enough to be worth developer time to stick with the instanced content as a focus and invest in it, rather than chase the next idea.  Making the content appeal to solo and groups players would benefit both, and allow for shared development resources.

 

If the choice is between Open World for casuals and instanced content for the "hardcore group players", then we can see where the developers are putting their effort.  It is absolutely not in group players' interests to turn this into a zero sum game.

[Warscythes.9307]

11 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

I'd actually go one step further to "Make fun rewarding replayable content, group AND solo".

 

This is a thing that seems to being overlooked by the anti-solo crowd.  We've seen group content tried repeatedly and then abandoned.  Dungeons, fractals, raids, DRMs, and now we're into strikes.

 

If this content was also soloable (for different rewards), then it might actually be popular enough to be worth developer time to stick with the instanced content as a focus and invest in it, rather than chase the next idea.  Making the content appeal to solo and groups players would benefit both, and allow for shared development resources.

 

If the choice is between Open World for casuals and instanced content for the "hardcore group players", then we can see where the developers are putting their effort.  It is absolutely not in group players' interests to turn this into a zero sum game.

I disagree on this because I have seen it first hand what happens is that a content can be grouped or soloed. People will predominantly solo the content because often times is much easier to just make time yourself instead of coordinate with minimal of 4 other people. Not to mention that any content designed with both in mind will have to compromise in favor of the solo player because there are mechanics that is simply impossible to do for solos. 

 

So no, I think the two should be considered separate for the most part. I am not saying they shouldn't exist, but this need to be viewed item by item.

 

I also disagree with your notion that they are chasing the next best thing because dungeons and fractals are basically the same thing, fractal is the modern dungeon. Raids and now Strike CM is too as well, it is pretty much agreed that EoD Strike CM is basically wing 8. We are just hoping that they are easier to do now that they are willing to reuse LS assets.

DRM I unironically think they should try do to salvage as well. This is basically midcore content, but is not hard enough for people to care but also not rewarding enough to do in general. I do however think midcore content is important and should be investigated. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

10 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I disagree on this because I have seen it first hand what happens is that a content can be grouped or soloed. People will predominantly solo the content because often times is much easier to just make time yourself instead of coordinate with minimal of 4 other people. Not to mention that any content designed with both in mind will have to compromise in favor of the solo player because there are mechanics that is simply impossible to do for solos. 

 

So no, I think the two should be considered separate for the most part. I am not saying they shouldn't exist, but this need to be viewed item by item.

I'm not sure this is true.  If the rewards were different, then I think both would be played.

 

That said, if you're right and they can't make solo options for strikes because people would choose to play that over multiplayer... then isn't that an argument to make them solo instead of multiplayer?  I don't think they should do that, but it seems bizarre to knowingly create less popular content, and then avoid making more popular content in order to force people into it.

11 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I also disagree with your notion that they are chasing the next best thing because dungeons and fractals are basically the same thing, fractal is the modern dungeon. Raids and now Strike CM is too as well, it is pretty much agreed that EoD Strike CM is basically wing 8. We are just hoping that they are easier to do now that they are willing to reuse LS assets.

DRM I unironically think they should try do to salvage as well. This is basically midcore content, but is not hard enough for people to care but also not rewarding enough to do in general. I do however think midcore content is important and should be investigated. 

I totally agree they should try to salvage DRMs.  I don't think it would take much, just strip out most of the pre-events.

What I meant though was in terms of dev resourcing.  You can see from the last release of a dungeon/fractal/raid/DRM update that the resources moved on.

 

I really hope strikes work out, and I do think that adding solo options to at least some of them would help with that.  Maybe add some fractal instability style randomness to stop them becoming repetitive as well.

[Warscythes.9307]

18 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

I'm not sure this is true.  If the rewards were different, then I think both would be played.

 

That said, if you're right and they can't make solo options for strikes because people would choose to play that over multiplayer... then isn't that an argument to make them solo instead of multiplayer?  I don't think they should do that, but it seems bizarre to knowingly create less popular content, and then avoid making more popular content in order to force people into it.

I totally agree they should try to salvage DRMs.  I don't think it would take much, just strip out most of the pre-events.

What I meant though was in terms of dev resourcing.  You can see from the last release of a dungeon/fractal/raid/DRM update that the resources moved on.

 

I really hope strikes work out, and I do think that adding solo options to at least some of them would help with that.  Maybe add some fractal instability style randomness to stop them becoming repetitive as well.

Let me say this, I think people will almost always choose to play more single player content than multiplayer because is more convenient assuming the reward is relatively the same. There is just no way around it because the fact is that most people who play MMO these days are older and is difficult to find 4 other people to group with. Is not even about what's fun or not, is more about practically. 

So unless you think we should make literally every content in the game soloable because if given the choice more people will solo, then using popularity is not going to work simply because people solo because is more practical, not because is necessarily "better" or preferred. I don't want the content to have compromised design for solo players. I just want fun content and the fact of the matter is that there are some mechanic and scale of the fight that can only be done with group focused in mind. I am not against solo content, but to make everything soloable, even just strikes is just unfathomable for me. I mean you are better off play some single player RPG with developer support at this point if that's the way you are going to go. Let the MMO be more focused and incentivized on playing with other people.  

Edited September 27, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

Enough group content, you are asking for content that requires organized squads.

I prefer the group content that one can stumble upon and help with the players there, rather than organized group content because well: People.

 

[Hashberry.4510]

Well its been a while since mmos noticed most of their customers are not really enjoying the small group content enough to rely on that to support the enterprise and have tried various ways to address it. ‘Go play another game’ has failed over and over so its kind of silly to fall back on that.

[Swagger.1459]

@Einsof.1457

 

“We need more group focused content.”

 

Well… you have dungeons, fractals, raids, strikes, world bosses, meta events, spvp, wvw…That’s like 90% of the game and all group (aka you need other people) related content. The only things really solo content is story and random stuff in open world.

 

So honestly, what are you talking about? Have Anet impose even more group content than what players may face 90% of the time? Communication? That happens all over the game, either in game chat or team speak, discord, and such. Anet has nothing to do with forcing players to communicate, that’s up to individual players and groups to decide for themselves. 
 

I honestly feel like you really didn’t think through your individual problem. Had you really thought about it, most of the game requires groups of players to make it through most of the content. 
 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Swagger.1459

[Einsof.1457]

32 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

@Einsof.1457

 

“We need more group focused content.”

 

Well… you have dungeons, fractals, raids, strikes, world bosses, meta events, spvp, wvw…That’s like 90% of the game and all group (aka you need other people) related content. The only things really solo content is story and random stuff in open world.

 

So honestly, what are you talking about? Have Anet impose even more group content than what players may face 90% of the time? Communication? That happens all over the game, either in game chat or team speak, discord, and such. Anet has nothing to do with forcing players to communicate, that’s up to individual players and groups to decide for themselves. 
 

I honestly feel like you really didn’t think through your individual problem. Had you really thought about it, most of the game requires groups of players to make it through most of the content. 
 

Excuse me? You have it backwards. When was the last raid? Gimme a break. 

[Swagger.1459]

11 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

As it stands more than 95% of the game does not require organization or communication with other players. We need to get this number to 80% or lower. This is an MMORPG after all. More challenge modes like Migraine from HoT would be a good first step. More fun rewards/skins for doing group related activities. These activities do not have to be strikes or raids or fractals(but we could use more of all of these modes, honestly) but can be more focused on open world or story instances. It would be cool to get bonus exp or rewards if we do world events with full groups/squads. As an MMORPG, this will foster community, friendships, and fun.  Group related content is lacking hard and should be built out more. Solo players should be pushed into the Multiplayer aspect more either through more rewards, or for other things. Another good idea would be to require the story dungeons as part of the vanilla story. When ascalon catacombs becomes available, make story mode required for the next step of the story. Get players used to talking and playing with others.  This will make players more comfortable and willing to do strikes/raids/fractals because they already have experience in groups during the vanilla experience. 

Do I have it backwards or are you not following along with your original post?
 

Perhaps you just made this thread to mirror the thread that requests more solo stuff for players to do because you don’t agree with it. If so, this thread is unnecessary, just keep posting your views there… I would just keep in mind that the majority of content relies on groups, either directly (most of the time) or indirectly (some of the time). 
 

If you want more raids, then ask in the raid section. Be aware, though, that the devs already stated that raid participation is so low that it’s not worth their time to make more. Instead, they’re investing in strikes so raid type content doesn’t look completely abandoned. 
 

GL! 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Swagger.1459

[Firebeard.1746]

11 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

As it stands more than 95% of the game does not require organization or communication with other players. We need to get this number to 80% or lower. This is an MMORPG after all. More challenge modes like Migraine from HoT would be a good first step. More fun rewards/skins for doing group related activities. These activities do not have to be strikes or raids or fractals(but we could use more of all of these modes, honestly) but can be more focused on open world or story instances. It would be cool to get bonus exp or rewards if we do world events with full groups/squads. As an MMORPG, this will foster community, friendships, and fun.  Group related content is lacking hard and should be built out more. Solo players should be pushed into the Multiplayer aspect more either through more rewards, or for other things. Another good idea would be to require the story dungeons as part of the vanilla story. When ascalon catacombs becomes available, make story mode required for the next step of the story. Get players used to talking and playing with others.  This will make players more comfortable and willing to do strikes/raids/fractals because they already have experience in groups during the vanilla experience. 

So in your mind, where does DE meta sit? IMO, it requires more effort to set up than a raid, has unique cosmetic rewards (and infusion), gives gen3 legendary progress. Does it accomplish this or not? I don't really want to defend DE meta, I feel like it should be instanced content, but I'm just wondering where it missed the bar for you here. Do you try comming it?

[Linken.6345]

16 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

So in your mind, where does DE meta sit? IMO, it requires more effort to set up than a raid, has unique cosmetic rewards (and infusion), gives gen3 legendary progress. Does it accomplish this or not? I don't really want to defend DE meta, I feel like it should be instanced content, but I'm just wondering where it missed the bar for you here. Do you try comming it?

Well with all the nerfs and fixing it is being done regularly now aint it?

So how is the little group content we have somehow the majority of content now?

[Firebeard.1746]

7 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Well with all the nerfs and fixing it is being done regularly now aint it?

So how is the little group content we have somehow the majority of content now?

It's 25% of the most recent expansion. I've seen it fail plenty post-nerfs and there were plenty of rants post-nerfs. 

[Krzysztof.5973]

How low did we fall that we get threads asking for more group content in an MMO?
How low did this community fall that so many are against it?

[Mortime.1359]

Having an actual working modern group finder for easier group content could be a nice stepping stone for a lot of players to get into harder content. And no I don't mean having a group finder for challenge mode stuff, even WoW doesn't have automated group finder for mythic dungeons and normal+ raids. However easier stuff that doesn't require too much effort could easily have an automated system in place and would let players tip their toes in, give them a taste to know what exactly are they missing out on.

[Luks.4230]

Its a MMORPG after all and the community wants more solo content over group content. This community is truly something else lmao

[Firebeard.1746]

10 minutes ago, Luks.4230 said:

Its a MMORPG after all and the community wants more solo content over group content. This community is truly something else lmao

Yet WoW, an MMO that built itself entirely around group content just suffered one of the worst exoduses ever. And really just about any meta is "group content". It's just not organized, and plenty of metas still require some level of coordination. What initially hooked me in GW2 was its looser group content design, it made the game feel much freer, I do more organized content these days. If I had to say which of their game modes is best in terms of how group content feels, I'd say their raids for the most part nail it. WvW is also pretty cool, if the leaders are fun. When you find a community to play with, the feel in that content is the best I've ever had in an MMO. Outside a community it can feel kind of brutal or empty depending on the group, for both. 

The game has to be fun enough to play without other people around just so there's people to play with for the group content on hand. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Luks.4230]

Yeah lol, look at wotlk..

You guys.. i cant believe it

[Firebeard.1746]

2 minutes ago, Luks.4230 said:

Yeah lol, look at wotlk..

You guys.. i cant believe it

I'm talking retail, I don't think the content, as far as how it actually plays, is worse than vanilla, the power grinds aren't worse either, even with all the janky SL systems. It's a nostalgia boat getting a bunch of millenials back together and they'll all be nice to each other to keep the experience alive, but really WoW isn't a well designed MMO. It doesn't naturally encourage half the positive interactions taht GW2 does. 
Pretty sure I've spent less time in retail and gotten further, even though the grinds were the main complaint of SL. SL actually had amazing world building that unfortunately was ignored because of everything else. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Luks.4230]

A MMORPG is only about group content. The only solo content should be leveling and farming. If you want solo content go and play a single player game. MMORPG's are meant to be played in a group. I dont get what this community is all about?? You want a single player game where you can show your shiny gear to others witch you buyed by swiping your card.lol

Edited September 28, 2022 by Luks.4230

[Firebeard.1746]

Just now, Luks.4230 said:

A MMORPG is only about group content. The only solo content should be leveling and farming. If you want solo content go and play a single player game. MMORPG's are meant ro be played in a group. I dont get what this community is all about?? You want a single player game where you can show your shiny gear to others witch you buyed by swiping your card.lol

Okay. And are you soloing pinata? What solo content are you doing all the time? I mean I clearly remember organizing groups and leading them doing oil meta an ungodly number of times when i first came back after BFA. Most major events in the game aren't soloable.

[Luks.4230]

Dude what you talking about

[Firebeard.1746]

12 minutes ago, Luks.4230 said:

Dude what you talking about

That's basically what I'm asking you. You're claiming this community sucks because they just want solo content, but most of the major events (called metas) can't be done solo. So I'm asking you, what cutting edge content you're running around doing solo with no other players that's causing you to whine and attack GW2 players. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Astralporing.1957]

14 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

As it stands more than 95% of the game does not require organization or communication with other players. We need to get this number to 80% or lower. This is an MMORPG after all. More challenge modes like Migraine from HoT would be a good first step. More fun rewards/skins for doing group related activities. These activities do not have to be strikes or raids or fractals(but we could use more of all of these modes, honestly) but can be more focused on open world or story instances. It would be cool to get bonus exp or rewards if we do world events with full groups/squads. As an MMORPG, this will foster community, friendships, and fun.  Group related content is lacking hard and should be built out more. Solo players should be pushed into the Multiplayer aspect more either through more rewards, or for other things. Another good idea would be to require the story dungeons as part of the vanilla story. When ascalon catacombs becomes available, make story mode required for the next step of the story. Get players used to talking and playing with others.  This will make players more comfortable and willing to do strikes/raids/fractals because they already have experience in groups during the vanilla experience. 

Considering that most of the already existing group modes failed, are failing, or are just being neglected by the devs due to insufficient player interest, i'd say that you are wrong. You may need more group content (but then, do you even play all of the already existing group content the game has to offer?). We however do not.